The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

Absolute truth · Jul 14, 2008

Lets see, Since its the simple things of God that confound (confuse) the wize let's turn to the simple things to look at this.

FACTS:

Man can make choices.

God is sovereign.

Man is not.

The will and purpose of God:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Who is the word? Christ of course)

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially (Not exclusively) of those that believe.

So Gods will and purpose is to have all men saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So the same all who were cursed under Adam is the same all who will be made alive in Christ.

Now, We see that the will of God is that all man be saved. We see that all man will be saved and the only thing that stands in the way of one believing the scriptures and trusting in the SOVERIEGN will of God is that they believe that they possess a will that is free to choose other than the will of God.

Those who are decieved and know nothing and live according to the flesh are left that way because God wills to have them in that condition for now. They are the vessils of wrath and they were not "free" to choose that condition or free to choose anything other than what they are.

Rom 9:22What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word "fitted" here in the Greek is "Katartizo", which is to be "fitted", or "prepared" for destruction. What destruction? The destruction of their fleshy carnal sinful nature. Is it the will of the person to be as such? No, of course not. They are made this way for the sole purpose of allowing God to "SHOW HIS WRATH AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN". Is this an eternal destruction? No, these fires are unquenchable because no one can quench them, they must burn out once they have consumned all that needs consuming.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Those who are lead of God did not choose God out of a freewill choice. God makes it very clear. This is the purpose for God choosing those who follow Him and this is His good pleasure...

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

God "makes", "fitted", "purposed", "molded" etc, etc, who we are. It is all by the grace of God and not on our freedom to choose.

Man can make choices but every choise is based on a cause and that cause is GOD. God chooses what vessil we will be and molds us that way.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God hardens hearts according to His will. It is not the individual who hardens their heart. We all approach God with hardened hearts and according to His will He gives us a new heart that desires the things of God.

So in conclusion, We see that it is the will of God that all men be saved and that He sent His Son into the world to save the world. ALL men not some or only a few but all. Only the vessels of honor live in that now but in the end all will be saved.

Now to claim that we have a will that is free to choose to deny God and freely choose to do evil brings us to conclude that we freely choose to come to God and do Good all according to our freewill which is in full power to override the very sovereign will of God that all men be saved.

So we demote Gods will into a mere week wish or diesire for all men but mankind really has the final say and God will not and cannot interfere with our will to freely do so.

"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [obtained not earned] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our destiny was pre arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS [EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).

I guess "ALL THINGS" does not include the will of man since it is so powerful and free to choose without a cause.

Even scholars and theologians are moving away (albeit slowly) from the error of freewill. They now concede that man has a "limited" "free" will.

Did you get that? A limited free will. Hmmmmm!!! Lets look at that a moment.

Limited: bound, confined, restrained, restricted, etc, etc. (Websters english dictionary)

Free: Freed, independant, exempt, unconfined, unrestricted, unfastened, etc, etc.

So now we are taught that man has a limited free will. Well according to these word definitions they are in essence saying.....

"Man has restricted, unrestricted will".

Yes it does sound just as silly as the doctrine of free will in contrast ot the declaration of scripture that god alone has a sovereign will that truly is free to bring about HIS WILL AND PURPOSE. Since it is God who "directs" our steps.

God Bless, Dave

toirewadokodesuka · Jul 14, 2008

Bible2 said:
Actually, no, it would be like saying that "squares" refers to red squares in the following quote:

"A red box made out of squares..."

Joshua 24:15 refers to people having the ability to
make a choice. That requires free will because if
they had no free will then they would have no choice,
just as the quote above requires that the squares are
red because if they weren't red then the box would
not be red.

Joshua 24:15 didn't discuss the doctrine of free will, and therefore had nothing to do with what you were talking about.

But you seam to think the mere mention of will/choice means free will/free choice? (So you probably think it had everything to do with it, along with any other verse in the bible that talks of/refers to choice/will?)

No offense, but this is a very juvenile way of looking at things.

Free will, determined will, psychological will, hindu look at the will, and all other philosophies of the will. There are many philosophies about the will. The mere mention of the word will/choice doesn't refer to any of those philisophies. And it doesn't imply any of them either.

Choice = choice, not free choice.

Imagine if I taught my kids that all people who ride cars are rich white americans. That wouldn't make sense, because cars doesn't refer to cars (driven by rich white americans)? There are many different ways of looking at it.

Not only is it closed minded, but it can get very confusing, i.e. if I started teaching ppl that every time I mention "bat" it means a blood sucking winged creature of the night... Confusing because they might think the bat used in cricket is that winged beast.

The context of your verse is talking about choice/action, not discussing the doctrine of free will.

Bible2 said:
Free will doesn't mean that one can choose anything
at all. For example, someone who is five foot two
inches tall can't choose to become an NBA player,
just as someone who was born in India can't choose to
become the U.S. President. So someone's biology and
history can constrict his choices in life.

But his will is still free in the true sense that no
one can make him do anything he doesn't want to do, or
make him not do anything he wants to do and is able
to do based on his biology and history.

The point of free will is that God had no interest in
making human robots who could do nothing but what
He had pre-programmed them to do, whether they liked
it or not. Instead, God created human children who
have the ability to choose to do or not do the right
thing and the ability to choose to do or not do the
wrong thing.

If people didn't have this ability then God could not
logically reward people for choosing to do the right
thing (Matthew 25:21) or punish them for choosing
to do the wrong thing (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) or
choosing not to do the right thing (Luke 12:47,
Matthew 25:26-30).

"Determined" and "influenced" are not equal insofar
as one person can be influenced by a second person to
do some action without the second person determining
the choice of the first person to do that action, in
the sense of taking away the first person's free
will; the first person, because he has free will, can
choose to reject the attempt of the second person to
influence his choice of action.

And this can be for good or for ill. It can be for
good when we choose to reject someone's attempt to
influence us to do evil (Luke 4:7-8). And it can be
for evil when we choose to reject someone's attempt
to influence us to do good (Hebrews 3:15).

With regard to the statement "Predestination defines
the cosmos as determined by God", in the analogous
equation a + 3 = 5, "a" would represent our free will
actions, "3" would represent the biological and
historical limitation on those actions, and "=5" would
represent God's predestination of all of our free-
willed actions as well as the biological and
historical limitation on those actions; "a" is
restricted to only one value (2) by "=5" and "3".

But then how can "a" represent free will? Only within
a context greater than one equation. In algebra, "a"
is called a "variable" because in itself it can
represent any number at all. It represents different
numbers in different equations. For example:

a + 1 = 2
a + 3 = 5
a + 6 = 9

Out of all the possible equations in which "a" could
be involved, for us to choose just one equation to
represent this cosmos doesn't mean that "a" ceases
to be a variable. In the same way, out of all the
possible cosmoses (sequences of events) in which
free will would be involved, for God to choose to
create just one cosmos (one sequence of events)
doesn't mean that free will ceases to be free.

It would be like a teacher who writes on his
blackboard a sequence of "a's" like this:

a
a
a

Then he turns to a student and says "choose a
number". The student says "1", and the teacher
writes "1. --" before the first "a". Then the teacher
says again, "choose a number", and the student says
"uh, 2", and the teacher writes "2. --" before the
second "a". Then the teacher says again, "choose a
number", and the student laughs and says "okay, uh,
3", and the teacher writes "3. --" before the third
"a", so that the blackboard reads:

1. -- a
2. -- a
3. -- a

Then the teacher adds his own figures to the board,
so that it reads:

1. -- a + 1 = 2
2. -- a + 3 = 5
3. -- a + 6 = 9

Then he step back and says "Okay, now I will pick the
equation that pleases me best", and he erases the
top and bottom equations so that the board reads
only:

2. -- a + 3 = 5

Now the value of "a" is determined to only one value
by the teacher; it's the only value of "a" that he
has permitted to exist on the board. And yet that
value of "a" is still the free-willed choice of the
student; the student can't claim that the teacher
forced him to choose that value for "a".

It's the same way with our free-willed actions in
this cosmos. Even though they are all predetermined
by God, they still are all chosen solely by our own
free will; God never forces us to choose them.

That would only be the case if materialism were true,
if nothing existed in the cosmos but matter and
mechanical operations upon matter, so that the cosmos
would be nothing but a gigantic clockwork built and
set in motion by God, in which we would be nothing
but automatons, mere cogs in the clockwork.

But God wasn't interested in building human cogs, but
creating actual children with free will. Materialism
isn't true, because God has given each of us a spirit
(1 Thessalonians 5:23), the movements of which aren't
determined by any mechanical forces, but by our own
free will, just as the movements of God's own Spirit
aren't determined by any mechanical forces, but by
His own free will. Indeed, our spirits come from
God's own Spirit (Genesis 2:7); we are made in His
image (Genesis 1:27).

Revelation 4:11, Romans 9:22-23, and Ephesians 3:10
don't contradict free will, just as in the analogy
of the equations the teacher's choosing that one
equation that pleased him best didn't contradict the
free will of the student who chose the value for "a".

Even if I was Atheist, I still wouldn't agree with the notion of free will, because it isn't a matter of free will vs. predestination (not to me... I don't care about Predestrination etc etc.). It's a case of free will vs. the unconscious mind. Most people agree there's an unconscious mind, of sorts. Why do people complain so much? Why are there problems in the world? Why do people do stupid things : smoke, drugs, sex, and so on? Why do people experience regret? Why do people go see psychologists? Because... humans do not have full control over their personalities. Sex is an intrigal part of our minds from dawn to dusk. It is something many struggle to control.

Humans seek liberation from themselves. That is why the notion of free will, will always remain a notion. It's not real.

Rick Otto · Jul 14, 2008

So the same all who were cursed under Adam is the same all who will be made alive in Christ.

It doesn't say that.
It just points out the process is the same.
Eph 1:4 identifies who of those that were in Adam got placed in Christ & when.

All mankind is concluded in unbleif and blindness to truth. You cannot freely choose to believe in something you cannot see. It takes God to come in and open those eyes and ears and only then WILL YOU CHOOSE to do His will. Once seeing the truth you cannot freely choose not to see it as truth and that which you see definitively changes your choices. It is not within man to direct his own steps.

Woo, Hoo! Amen, bro.

Absolute truth · Jul 14, 2008

BY ABSOLUTE TRUTH:

So the same all who were cursed under Adam is the same all who will be made alive in Christ.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so (EVEN SO stated here provides no speculation as to who and how many the all are) in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rick Otto said:
It doesn't say that.
It just points out the process is the same.

Actually there is no statement of limitation here such as "only", "some" etc. The passage compared with the rest of scripture combined with the will of God that all man be saved makes this passage absolutely clear.

The passage itself is self explanitory since there are no words of limitation used to limit the number of those made alive in Christ. The words "even so" are used clearly stating that all those who were effected by the fall of Adam (ALL MANKIND) are the same all who will be effected by Christ and will be made alive. To give the first have of this passage the full number of those effected and then limit the second half with no reason of logic is to merely deny scripture and limit it based on ones theology and not the scriptures. There is no mention of the "process" whereby this is achieved, it is simply stating the fact that it shall be done.

Eph 1:4 identifies who of those that were in Adam got placed in Christ & when.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Here is that scripture,and this is simply speaking of those who are predestinated before the foundation of the world to walk in Christ now in there lifetime in order to be found worthy of the kingdom "AGE" (Not eternity). They are now even in the kingdom in the spirit but are still alive now and will recieve their glorified bodies to have their rest and upon the resurrection of the dead they are to rule and reign over them until all has been subdued and EVERY knee bowed and every tonge confessing that Jesus is Lord. Then Christ gives up all rule and authority to Hid Father and He Himself is now subject to the Him (the Father) who put all things under Him.

It is our theologies and indoctrinations that automatically put limits on Gods "power" to save all. The scriptures do not limit this and infact proclaim it louder than any Christian organization I have ever seen. The scriptures speak of a triumphant Christ, not a failed one. He shall acomplish all that the Father sent Him to do. WHat did the Father send Him to do? To save the WORLD. If He does not save the world than He failed and is not triumphant.

Example:

Myboss needs me to go and deliver 500 loaves of bread and tells every customer that they will recieve their bread today. He sends me out to do the job. Now I go out and bust my butt to get everyone their bread but manage to only deliver 10 loaves of bread would you consider this triumphant? Did I accomplish all that I was sent to do?

As in my truck all bread needs delivering, even so shall all be delivered by me.

This is a statement of fact with no limitation and somehow I am unable to deliver all of them then I have failed and I can no longer say I delivered all the bread.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All are in Adam and all have recieved the death that is passed through the blood of Adam. Now Jesus is the new Adam and had to put all mankind under His own blood and He did that. It may not be evident as yet but these are but a means to an end. The biggest delusion for not understanding it is because the church has erroniously taught that the blood of Christ does not extend beyong the grave. They teach that it is either now or never for salvation as if to say that salvation somehow comes by our choices as you yourself disagree with. This should make it all the more easier for you to see.

Jesus had to come to undo all of the wrongs the fall caused and make it all straight, all level and restored to order and all mankind made whole. He is to undo all the works of the devil. If not all are made alive then they remain under the work of Satan forever and that is not what scripture teaches and it is definately not sound doctrine in light of Gods definitive will and purpose that cannot be altered since God does not change but He changes us.

God Bless, Dave

Rick Otto · Jul 15, 2008

Absolute truth said:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so (EVEN SO stated here provides no speculation as to who and how many the all are) in Christ shall all be made alive.
Right,... the 'who' are "all in Adam" & the how many is "all in Adam."
Likewise, all in Christ are affected by what Christ did. That doesn't render the two groups as having the same constituents as evidenced by damnation.

That seperate distinctiveness of the latter group from the former is "compared with the rest of scripture" starting at about Eph1:4 wherein their identity as a seperate group targeted for mercy is described as foreknown by predetermination "before the foundation of the world" - mentioned twice in the larger passage - ya gotta love it. Check it out:

1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us ["us" the people he is writing this epistle to - us in Christ, not "us"- all of mankind]accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[=--=]

Actually there is no statement of limitation here such as "only", "some" etc. The passage compared with the rest of scripture combined with the will of God that all man be saved makes this passage absolutely clear.

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Usualy the idiomatic context of all man, "the world", and "whosoever" is in service to include Gentiles in the concept of salvation which up to that time had only been "of the Jews".
Including Gentiles was severe culture schock, defying centuries of tradition. Allow it it's due of relevance.

The passage itself is self explanitory since there are no words of limitation used to limit the number of those made alive in Christ.

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It's an exact number - 'all in Him'. And the stating of two groups in distinctly different ways establishes a preponderance of circumstantial evidence for the two being different, except for the fact that all those predestined to be in Christ had to endure a wait for regeneration - saving grace in God's good time & measure.
Every one who has ever lived was in Adam in a physical sense, but being in Christ isn't a physical fact, it is a spiritual one.
Just as 'not all who are of Israel are Israel' (Rom9:6)
That's the only way it could be only to His glory.

Believin' there's somethin' redeeming about yourself before God's mercy brought you to spiritual life is Pelagianism, or at least semi-Pelagianism. Have you heard of that guy? This discussion was a current controversy in his time. Too bad they didn't have the internet. He believed the fall didn't result in the spiritualy total depravity of man's will. He claimed the will was free to respond to grace discerned, in contradiction to 1Cor2:14

1Co 2:14 - Show Context But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The words "even so" are used clearly stating that all those who were effected by the fall of Adam (ALL MANKIND) are the same all who will be effected by Christ and will be made alive.

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They correlate the similarity of placement & effect of being placed "in", but the identity other than by their placement, of which there are two; the cause-effect relationships are identical, not necesarily the members of each "in group". (chuckle)

It is our theologies and indoctrinations that automatically put limits on Gods "power" to save all.

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Limited Atonement doesn't limit His power, it recognizes the limit of His mercy to an "elect".

The scriptures do not limit this and infact proclaim it louder than any Christian organization I have ever seen.

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I agree. The word is "omnipotent", or more popular,"almighty".

The scriptures speak of a triumphant Christ, not a failed one.

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Me too. That too defies the notion of a will being free of God's determination.

He shall acomplish all that the Father sent Him to do. WHat did the Father send Him to do? To save the WORLD. If He does not save the world than He failed and is not triumphant.

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Then you are the one preaching a failed Christ, those in hell being irrefutable evidence of the fact.

Example:

Myboss needs me to go and deliver 500 loaves of bread and tells every customer that they will recieve their bread today. He sends me out to do the job. Now I go out and bust my butt to get everyone their bread but manage to only deliver 10 loaves of bread would you consider this triumphant? Did I accomplish all that I was sent to do?

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If I was George Bush I would.

As in my truck all bread needs delivering, even so shall all be delivered by me.

This is a statement of fact with no limitation and somehow I am unable to deliver all of them then I have failed and I can no longer say I delivered all the bread.

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No matter how ya slice it, you're not cut out for that job.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All are in Adam and all have recieved the death that is passed through the blood of Adam. Now Jesus is the new Adam and had to put all mankind under His own blood and He did that.

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I baithicaly dithagree.

It may not be evident as yet but these are but a means to an end. The biggest delusion for not understanding it is because the church has erroniously taught that the blood of Christ does not extend beyong the grave. They teach that it is either now or never for salvation as if to say that salvation somehow comes by our choices as you yourself disagree with. This should make it all the more easier for you to see.

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Sorry, no.

Jesus had to come to undo all of the wrongs the fall caused and make it all straight, all level and restored to order and all mankind made whole. He is to undo all the works of the devil. If not all are made alive then they remain under the work of Satan forever and that is not what scripture teaches and it is definately not sound doctrine in light of Gods definitive will and purpose that cannot be altered since God does not change but He changes us.

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Alrighty, then!

God Bless, Dave

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Backatchya, brother Dave!

Absolute truth · Jul 15, 2008

Hi Rick,

I enjoyed your last post. I had a few laughs, especially at the George Bush stab, perfect comparison.

I would like to examine the scripture you gave and maybe look even deeper into it since you hold as a strength of your stand.

I would really like to state that I am discussing this with you because I am speculating that you do not believe all mankind will eventually be conciled to God and that you believe that hell is either an eternal torment in fire or merely annihilation. You can clarify in your followup reply.

Now before I go into it I would also like to state that I agree that Paul is definately speaking to those in Christ in Ephesus. I would also like to note that in speaking with them that He also makes note of "all things" and directly contrasts them to "In whom ALSO WE...". I hope you are following me here.

I will highlight in bold and underline and emphasiseation the points in which I would like you to take note.

1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

A few things to note here.

First of all, I agree that the elect have been given special privledges over the non elect (as you know that it is nothing of ourselves but merely by the grace of God according to His will and purpose). I do not discount that nor reject it.

Now what were we to be predestinated for? "That we should be to the praise of His glory". Simple enough. And who should be to the praise of His glory? Those who "FIRST" trust in Christ (based on Gods election and predestination).

If those who first trust in Christ are placed in contrast to those God will gather in together in one (Christ) than we have more being saved than just those who are first trusting the Lord.

Remember it is stating that we first who trust in the Lord but then "in the DISPENSATION of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, BOTH which are in HEAVEN AND on EARTH IN HIM.

Heres more proof just in this scripture...

3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

In heavenly places....

WE ARE BLESSED with all spiritual blessing IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST. Remember we must compare spiritual with spiritual. We who believe are IN HEAVENLY PLACES while the rest of the world is still carnally minded and fixated on things of the EARTH. We are spiritually alive now in heavenly places while they are spiritually dead now in this earth. Lets review again following our rightly dividing scripture.

10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Do you see it yet? We are already seated in heavenly places. We are of the world (earth) but not in the world (earth) and in the dispensation of the fullness of times (feast of the tabernacle, the full fall harvest, the fullness of the gentiles, etc,etc) we will gather all things under Him OF THINGS THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THINGS IN THE EARTH and ALL THINGS shall be subdued, when every knee shall bow and every tonge confesses that Jesus is Lord "TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER" when Jesus shall give up all rule and all authority and He Himself is in subjection to the Father who will then, and only can He then "be all in all".

Just to elablorate just how far this goes consider the words "earth" and "flesh". Check the following comparisons.

Flesh: dust of the earth. The flesh is earth.

We "who first trusted" are to die to our flesh and no longer LIVE to the flesh. We are to walk in the spirit (heavenly). We are in our flesh (earth) but we are seated with Chrsit and no longer slaves to the flesh and in bondage to it. We are spiritually alive. We are of the earth (created in the flesh) but no longer live therein.

Those who have not had this grace abounded to them (yet) are in the earth (flesh) and are subject to the flesh (earth) and nature (things of the earth, flesh). They are (for now) still spiritually dead UNTIL the dispensation (specific final age) of the fullness (fullfillment, end, final) of times (the ages) come in.

When shall this end be?

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is what happens in the end. The end does not come till this happens. Allm ust be subdued and all must accept "He (the Father) who put ALL THINGS" under Christ. when this happens God the Father shall be ALL IN ALL.

This is the dispensation of the fullness of times. This is the end. This is where the last enemy is destroyed (death).

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Anything less would be BAD AND UNACCEPTABLE TO GOD

God Bless, Dave

Rick Otto · Jul 15, 2008

I would really like to state that I am discussing this with you because I am speculating that you do not believe all mankind will eventually be conciled to God and that you believe that hell is either an eternal torment in fire or merely annihilation. You can clarify in your followup reply.

Busted! Boy are you perceptive.
Yeah, you know what, I "believe" all that but with some doubt & reservation based mostly on my unstudied ignorance of the concepts of hell. I have a cursory knowledge of some of the ideas & arguments tho, and (lol) I just finished confessing the exact thing to a friend in a pm. A young man asked me point-blank,"Are you a Calvinist, Rick?" LOL
I explained to him that I believe the Canons of Dordt, but I part with Calvin on ecclesiology especialy in the area of Church discipline.

Now what were we to be predestinated for? "That we should be to the praise of His glory". Simple enough. And who should be to the praise of His glory? Those who "FIRST" trust in Christ (based on Gods election and predestination).

If those who first trust in Christ are placed in contrast to those God will gather in together in one (Christ) than we have more being saved than just those who are first trusting the Lord.

Remember it is stating that we first who trust in the Lord but then "in the DISPENSATION of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, BOTH which are in HEAVEN AND on EARTH IN HIM.

I apologize for not condensing this into a few of my own words, but this guy clarifies that distinction:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John Gill's Exposition of the Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 1:10[/FONT]
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times…
Or "according to the dispensation"… as the Alexandrian copy reads; the fulness of time appointed by God, and fixed in the prophets; after many times and seasons were elapsed, from the creation of the world; at the most suitable and convenient time, when a new economy or dispensation began, within which all this was to be effected, hereafter mentioned:
he might gather together in one all things in Christ;
this supposes, that all things were once united together in one; angels and men were united to God by the ties of creation, and were under the same law of nature, and there were peace and friendship between them; and this union was in Christ, as the beginning of the creation of God, in whom all things consist: and it supposes a disunion and scattering of them; as of men from God, and from good angels, which was done by sin; and of Jews and Gentiles from one another; and of one man from another, everyone turning to his own way; and then a gathering of them together again: the word here used signifies to restore, renew, and reduce to a former state; and so the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions render it; and according to this sense, it may seem to have respect to the times of the restitution of all things, the restoration and renovation of the universe; when there will be new heavens and a new earth, and new inhabitants in them: the word is also used to recapitulate, or sum up the heads of a discourse; and according to this sense, it may intend the meeting together, and summing up of all things in Christ, that had been before; as of all the promises and blessings of the covenant; of all the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament; of all the types and shadows, and sacrifices of the former dispensation; yea, all the sins of Old Testament saints, and all the curses of the law, met on him: the word is likewise used for the collection of numbers into one sum total; and Christ is the sum total of elect angels and men; or the whole number of them is in him; God has chosen a certain number of persons unto salvation; these he has put into the hands of Christ, who has a particular and personal knowledge of them; and the exact number of them will be gathered and given by him: once more, it signifies to reduce, or bring under one head; and Christ is an head of eminence and of influence, both to angels and men: and there is a collection of these together in one, in Christ; by virtue of redemption by Christ, and grace from him, there is an entire friendship between elect angels and elect men; they are social worshippers now, and shall share in the same happiness of the vision of God and of Christ hereafter: hence it follows,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth,
even in him;
by things in heaven are not meant the souls of saints in heaven; though it is true that the souls of departed saints are in heaven; and that the saints in heaven and on earth were gathered together in Christ, and represented by him, when he hung upon the cross; and that they all make up one body, of which Christ is the head; and that they will be all collected together one day; and that their souls which are in heaven, and their bodies which are in the earth, will come together and be reunited, and dwell with Christ for ever; but rather the angels are meant, whose origin is heaven; where they have their residence, and from whence they never fell; and whose employment is in heaven, and of an heavenly nature: and by things on earth, are not intended every creature on earth, animate and inanimate; nor all men, but all elect men, whether Jews or Gentiles, and some of all sorts, ranks, and degrees; whose origin is of the earth, and who are the inhabitants of it: all these angels in heaven, and elect men on earth, are brought together under one head, even in him, in Christ Jesus, and by him; and none but he was able to do it, and none so fit, who is the Creator of all, and is above all; and was typified by Jacob's ladder, which reached heaven and earth, and joined them together, and on which the angels of God ascended and descended. [/FONT]

Absolute truth · Jul 15, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Busted! Boy are you perceptive.
Yeah, you know what, I "believe" all that but with some doubt & reservation based mostly on my unstudied ignorance of the concepts of hell. I have a cursory knowledge of some of the ideas & arguments tho, and (lol) I just finished confessing the exact thing to a friend in a pm. A young man asked me point-blank,"Are you a Calvinist, Rick?" LOL
I explained to him that I believe the Canons of Dordt, but I part with Calvin on ecclesiology especialy in the area of Church discipline.

Hey Rick,
I would love to discuss the concepts of hell (Hades, Shoel, Gehenna, etc) and the spititual meaning of these. We would have to go into that in a different thread. I do find that the view of the popular creed is one that causes hinderance in regards to truly understanding the plan and purpose and predestination of God.

I apologize for not condensing this into a few of my own words, but this guy clarifies that distinction:

SOmetimes its easier to borrow anothers writings to save time especially when you agree with that writing. I do the same myself and will do it again in this post at the end.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John Gill's Exposition of the Bible[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 1:10[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Or "according to the dispensation" as the Alexandrian copy reads; the fulness of time appointed by God, and fixed in the prophets; after many times and seasons were elapsed, from the creation of the world; at the most suitable and convenient time, when a new economy or dispensation began, within which all this was to be effected, hereafter mentioned: [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Right off the bat his presupposition leads me to believe he views this of a past tense occurance. The problem with this view is that we are still continuing IN A DISPENSATION OF TIME. This is but the second dispensation and clearly not the final or fullfillment of all the ages. If this was so than all would be accomplished and God the Father would be all in all (or as you believe those elected only would be in Him and all others would be destroyed). [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]he might gather together in one all things in Christ;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]this supposes, that all things were once united together in one; angels and men were united to God by the ties of creation, and were under the same law of nature, and there were peace and friendship between them; and this union was in Christ, as the beginning of the creation of God, in whom all things consist: and it supposes a disunion and scattering of them; as of men from God, and from good angels, which was done by sin; and of Jews and Gentiles from one another; and of one man from another, everyone turning to his own way; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]and then a gathering of them together again: the word here used signifies to restore, renew, and reduce to a former state; and so the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions render it; and according to this sense, it may seem to have respect to the times of the restitution of all things, the restoration and renovation of the universe: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica](I would you to take note that he uses the terms "renew" and "reduce to a FORMER STATE", then he uses the terms "restitution, restoration and renovation" and applies that these be present concerning "ALL THINGS". If not all things are to be "renewed, restored, renovated, etc" than we have a partial "renewal, restoration, renovation ,etc" instead of a FULLNESS of SOME things. All things simply includes ALL THINGS, not a fraction of ALL THINGS.) [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]when there will be new heavens and a new earth, and new inhabitants in them: the word is also used to recapitulate, or sum up the heads of a discourse; and according to this sense, it may intend the meeting together, and summing up of all things in Christ, that had been before; as of all the promises and blessings of the covenant; of all the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament; of all the types and shadows, and sacrifices of the former dispensation; yea, all the sins of Old Testament saints, and all the curses of the law, met on him: the word is likewise used for the collection of numbers into one sum total; and Christ is the sum total of elect angels and men; or the whole number of them is in him; God has chosen a certain number of persons unto salvation; these he has put into the hands of Christ, who has a particular and personal knowledge of them; and the exact number of them will be gathered and given by him: once more, it signifies to reduce, or bring under one head; and Christ is an head of eminence and of influence, both to angels and men: and there is a collection of these together in one, in Christ; by virtue of redemption by Christ, and grace from him, there is an entire friendship between elect angels and elect men; they are social worshippers now, and shall share in the same happiness of the vision of God and of Christ hereafter: hence it follows, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]both which are in heaven, and which are on earth,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]even in him;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]by things in heaven are not meant the souls of saints in heaven; though it is true that the souls of departed saints are in heaven; and that the saints in heaven and on earth were gathered together in Christ, and represented by him, when he hung upon the cross; and that they all make up one body, of which Christ is the head; and that they will be all collected together one day; and that their souls which are in heaven, and their bodies which are in the earth, will come together and be reunited, and dwell with Christ for ever; but rather the angels are meant, whose origin is heaven; where they have their residence, and from whence they never fell; and whose employment is in heaven, and of an heavenly nature: and by things on earth, are not intended every creature on earth, animate and inanimate; nor all men, but all elect men, whether Jews or Gentiles, and some of all sorts, ranks, and degrees; whose origin is of the earth, and who are the inhabitants of it: all these angels in heaven, and elect men on earth, are brought together under one head, even in him, in Christ Jesus, and by him; and none but he was able to do it, and none so fit, who is the Creator of all, and is above all; and was typified by Jacob's ladder, which reached heaven and earth, and joined them together, and on which the angels of God ascended and descended. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Please take note of all mentions of "in Christ" and the elect which is the focus of his attention. Also take note that he does not intend "every creature on earth, animate and inanimate; nor all men, but all elect men".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He has failed to rightly divide the scriptures and has taken all passages speaking of the predestination of the elect and mashed them into the passages which deal with the dipensation of the fullness of times whereby "the all things" mentioned will have their full restitution, renewal, restoration, and renovation, etc, etc, etc.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I do however agree that the elect of God who are predestinated to WALK in that newness now are in focus concerning those alive being formed and fassioned to walk after the things of the spirit but the scriptures bare out that these are first to trust in God and are given special spiritual rewards whereby those who are vessils of wrath suffer that loss but they too will be saved in the "fullness of times, the conclusion of the eons, when the "all things" are put in subjection to Christ "IN THE END". Not now in THIS DISPENSATION as evidenced by looking in the world at the chaos.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Christ is to rule and reign with authority now and all those who have been given Him. But, that ruling, reigning, authority, and all those in Him now will not be offered up to God the Father until ALL HAVE BEEN SUBDUED.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]God the Father must be accepted by all creation before He can be all in all. "Wehn He saith ALL THINGS are put under Him (It is not saying in a place of eternal torment) IT IS MANIFEST (Clear, seen, witnessed etc) that He (The Father) is accepted (by the ALL THINGS, not merely the elect) which did put ALL THINGS under Him (Christ).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]We are the workers in the field reaping in the Kingdom. We are reaping the remaining "ALL THINGS".[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Christ and His elect are the first fruits as well. When God gave the cammands in the old testament regarding sowing and reaping etc, etc, He was not merely teaching us horticulture. He was drawing out His plan and purpose for all mankind, hence the parables of sowing and reaping. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The first fruits were the first little harvest of the full crop that keeps the farmer and His family fead through the summer UNTIL the full fall harvest of all the crops.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]As yet we have only witnessed the crop of the firstfruits taking shape. When Christ says "come to me all who are a thrist for I will give you the water of life freely" He is stating this on the last day before passover on the feast of tabernacles. This feast of tabernacles is in the end and that is when the rest are called, reaped, harvested in. This is the dispenstaion of the fullness of times when all are subdued and the Father is accepted. All things are restored, renewed, renovated, made whole, made alive, harvested, reaped, etc, etc, etc. Only then can God the Father be all in all.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John Gill has taken the passages dealing with the elect and applied the passages dealing with the ALL THINGS and mixed them together and attempted to make sense of them by incorporating his theology that not all are saved or ever will be saved into the whole mess. This is the problem with why Christendom errs. They are incorporating thier theology into the scriptures rather than allowing the scriptures to determine their theology. Mistranslations of bibles and a failure to seek those things out to their end leads them to see that only the elect of God predestinated into Christ will ever be saved and after that there is no hope. They exclude the dispenstaion of the fullness of times, they exclude the consumation of the ages, they exclude the full fall harvest and are happy that the farmer is content with only harvesting the 'FIRSTFRUITS" OF the full fall harvest when all have been brought into the storehouse for the winter. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]With this theology we have Christian writers such as John Gill grasping at straws to explain these many passages of scripture which deals with this consumation, restoration, restitution, etc, etc of all things.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]God Bless, Dave[/FONT]

Rick Otto · Jul 15, 2008

Okay, I think I understand what you're sayin'. Does that mean you're a "universalist"?

Bible2 · Jul 16, 2008

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight
of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to
come unto the knowledge of the truth.

In 1 Timothy 2:4, the Greek word translated as "all"
can be translated as "all manner of" (Acts 10:12).
God will have all manner of men to be saved
(Revelation 5:9b), not all men, for most men won't
be saved (Matthew 7:14, 22:14).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be
testified in due time.

1 Timothy 2:6 means only that Jesus' sacrifice was
sufficient to be a ransom for all (1 John 2:2), not
that it will in fact save everyone, for not everyone
will be saved (Mark 16:16).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of
my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it
shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall
prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Who is the
word? Christ of course)

Isaiah 55:11 doesn't say that Christ is sent to save
everyone, because He won't save everyone (Isaiah
66:24).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer
reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is
the Savior of all men, especially (Not exclusively)
of those that believe.

There is no "not exclusively" in 1 Timothy 4:10,
because only those who believe can be saved
(John 3:36). Jesus is the Savior of all men only
in the sense that His sacrifice was sufficient to
save all men (1 John 2:2), not that He will in fact
save all men, because not all men will believe
(John 3:18-20).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:22 means only that eventually
everyone will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:21b),
not that everyone will be saved, for the unsaved
will be resurrected into damnation (John 5:29).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Rom 9:22What if God, willing to show his wrath, and
to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction:

The word "fitted" here in the Greek is "Katartizo",
which is to be "fitted", or "prepared" for
destruction. What destruction? The destruction of
their fleshy carnal sinful nature.

The destruction of the unsaved, the vessels of wrath,
will be an everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians
1:9) of their resurrected bodies and their souls in
the eternal hell (Gehenna, Matthew 10:28).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Man can make choices but every choise is based on a
cause and that cause is GOD.

That's incorrect, for God never causes us to choose
to commit sin. He never even tempts us to commit sin
(James 1:13). We are tempted to commit sin by our
own lust (James 1:14). If we use our free will to
continue in sin without repentance, we will lose our
salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Also, God never causes us to do the right thing. He
can work in us to will and to do His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13), but He will never force us to do
it. We have the ability, through our free will, to
harden our hearts against God (Hebrews 3:15) and to
refuse to do the good things that we know He wants us
to do (Luke 12:47).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor
of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Romans 9:16 means that we cannot force God to show
us mercy simply by an act of our will, nor by being
super-good and doing many good works. It is solely
by God's own will that He chooses to show some people
mercy, and this is not based on any of their good
works before He shows them mercy (Titus 3:5). Indeed,
He chooses to love some people and show them mercy and
to hate some other people and never show them mercy,
but only His wrath, before they're even born (Romans
9:11-23). This is called double predestination.

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will
have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God hardens hearts according to His will. It is not
the individual who hardens their heart.

It's both. God can harden hearts (Exodus 7:3) and
people can also harden their own hearts (Exodus 8:15).
Romans 9:18 means that God makes sure to harden the
hearts of the vessels of wrath so that they will
never repent from those sins which they have already
chosen to commit by their own free will.

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Yes it does sound just as silly as the doctrine of
free will in contrast ot the declaration of scripture
that god alone has a sovereign will that truly is
free to bring about HIS WILL AND PURPOSE. Since it is
God who "directs" our steps.

No scripture says that God alone has a sovereign will
in the sense of Him being free to make His own
choices. Man also is free to make his own choices
(e.g. Deuteronomy 23:16). Ephesians 1:11b doesn't
take away man's free will; it only shows that God
does everything that He wants to do.

Proverbs 16:9b doesn't mean that God turns men into
marionettes and marches them across the stage, but
that He offers them direction in the right way to
go, because their own hearts are not sufficient to
know for sure which is the right way (Proverbs 14:12).

Absolute truth posted in message #61:

Acts2:27--"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in
hell [Gk: hades]"
Psalm16:10:"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
[Heb: sheol]"
No matter how fanciful one's ideas may be regarding
the use of the word hades in the New Testament, it
does not take on the meaning of consciousness,
judging, torture, chastisement, annihilation, or
eternity. It is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE,
UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD"For the living know
that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing"
(Ecc.9:5).

Ecclesiastes 9:5 is referring only to dead bodies
in their graves, not to the souls of the unsaved dead
who suffer torment in the fires of Hades (Luke
16:22-24). But the torment of Hades isn't eternal,
for after the millennium all of the unsaved dead
will be resurrected out of Hades to be judged and
cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15). It
is in the lake of fire (Gehenna, the eternal hell)
that the unsaved will be tormented in fire and
brimstone forever with the devil (Revelation
14:10-11, 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

Absolute truth · Jul 16, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Okay, I think I understand what you're sayin'. Does that mean you're a "universalist"?

Hi Rick,

Actually no I am decidedly not a universalist. Because I share this belief with universalism does not make me a universalist. Just like the fact that I do not believe in a trinity does not make me a Jehovahs witness.

I could tell people I live in a garage and most would assume Im a car but no, I am the dust under the car.

I only follow the one name that will lead me to victory in Him and that name is the only name whereby one is saved. I take no other name under heaven.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Who are the wise of this world? The church today of course. listen to the words. Paul is speaking of the scribes and pharasees of His day. Why? Because they were the wizest concering the things of God. Today is no different. instead their names have changed. They are now called Scholars and theologians. These are the wise of today concerning the things of God, but they do err just as the scribes and Pharasees did. They just dont know it yet. We all start off in this sytem and then God calls us out of her and causes us to walk in the wisdom OF God, newness of life and in Christ.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The subjects in focus here are those seeking after the signs and wisdom of God but are merely finding the wisdom of man. Some are still looking in the earth and carnal things for answers and canot even see the truth of God because they percieve only with a carnal earthly understanding and so this causes them to see it as foolishness.

Sorry for rambling but I felt your question deserved at the very least a simple answer.

God Bless, Dave

Bible2 · Jul 16, 2008

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #62:

Joshua 24:15 didn't discuss the doctrine of free
will, and therefore had nothing to do with what you
were talking about.

But you seam to think the mere mention of will/choice
means free will/free choice?

Yes, when the Bible refers to men being able to
choose what they do, as in Joshua 24:15, that means
that men have free will, for if they had no free
will then they would have no choice what they did.

Bible2 · Jul 16, 2008

Absolute truth posted in message #66:

[Ephesians 1]
... 10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of
times he might gather together in one all things in
Christ ...

Ephesians 1:10 is referring to the past establishment
of the Church, of which Christ is already the head
(Ephesians 1:22); the Greek word translated as
"gather together" means "to head up". "The fullness
of times" happened in the first century at the first
coming of Christ (Galatians 4:4). "All things in
Christ" means all believers, the Church (Ephesians
1:22-23).

Absolute truth posted in message #66:

We who believe are IN HEAVENLY PLACES while the rest
of the world is still carnally minded and fixated on
things of the EARTH. We are spiritually alive now in
heavenly places while they are spiritually dead now
in this earth. Lets review again following our
rightly dividing scripture.

[Ephesians 1]
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times
he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth ...

We who believe are in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6)
only in some symbolic sense, not literally.

Ephesians 1:10 means that the Church consists of one
body which includes both those believers (those
in Christ) who have died and are literally in heaven
(e.g. Revelation 6:9-11) and those believers who have
not yet died and are still literally on the earth
(Ephesians 6:3).

At the second coming of Christ, He will physically
gather together into one place all believers in
heaven and in earth (Mark 13:27; 1 Thessalonians
4:14-17).

Absolute truth posted in message #66:

... when every knee shall bow and every tonge
confesses that Jesus is Lord ...

Philippians 2:10-11 doesn't mean that everyone will
be saved, for even the unsaved will call Jesus Lord
(Matthew 25:44) before they're sent away into
everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46,41).

Absolute truth posted in message #66:

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 is referring only to the
destruction of the first, temporary death at the
great white throne judgment, when the first,
temporary death will be cast into the lake of fire,
which is the second, eternal death (Revelation 20:14)
in which the unsaved will be tormented forever in
fire and brimstone with the devil (Revelation
14:10-11, 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

Absolute truth · Jul 16, 2008

Hi Bible2,

Lets look at every instance of the terms eternal death or everlasting death in the scriptures.

-----------------------------

There you have it, NONE, not one single time mentioned in the scriptures. Go ahead and check their not there.

How many times do we read of everlasting (Grk aionios) life in the new testament?

14 times we will hear the term everlasting (Grk aionios) life or life everlasting.

How many times do we read of eternal (Grk aionios) life in the new testament?

------------------------------

There you have it, NONE, not one mention. Do you know why?

Because the word "aionios" is not and should not be defined as eternal or everlasting or any other word that is defined as timelessness.

Lets see.

The reason we never find the term "aionios death" is because these people are in death for an age or ages not eternity. Those who are promised aionios life are simply promised life with Christ in His Kingdom reign to have there rest and to rule and reign with Christ UNTIL all the rest are subdued. This word "aionios" is speaking of a specific age and that age is the kingdom age. Notice the following passage...

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1: Christ puts down all rule and all authority and power. When? IN THE END. Why? Because ALL HAVE BEEN SUBDUED AND THE FINAL ENEMY "DEATH" HAS BEEN DESTROYED. Now if Chrsit puts down all rule and all authorit and is now subject to God the Father than those elected also do not continue to rule and reign as well. They too are no longer subject to Christ but unto the Father who shall now be ALL IN ALL, or does that merely mean all in all manner of men? Your strawman argument sounds just as silly when I use it.

2: Your argument that "all" in these cases means all manner but not actually all is nothing more than grasping at straws in order to save your eternal death doctrine. How many times do we read here "all things", "all rule", "all enemies", etc, etc? Are you going to tell me that Gods word is nothing more than a weak statement? ALL in ALL simply means all manner?
I'm sorry but you need to take that deception to someone else in hopes to convert someone a little more unlearned in not only grammar but scripture.

3: 1Ti 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 1Ti 2:4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Are you going to tell me that this too is speaking of all manner of men as if to say not all? And this you feel your god considers this good and acceptable? All men will be saved in the end but not all men will enter into the aionios kingdom reign.

Here is what your theology teaches.

A failed Jesus who cannot or will not be able to save all because the Father does not want all to be saved, just all manner of men, as you state.

Gods will is nothing more than a weak wish or desire to have all saved but is incapable to save them all. Mans will is stronger and more powerful than Gods.

Your God is a respector of persons who has predestinated only a few to recieve eternal life while all others recieve eternal death and this is a fair and just judgement.

You state that God created us with the very freewill that has sent miriads of souls to burn for all eternity. And God had no forsight of this before giving such a horrible power to weak minded, weak fleshed humans? And Christendom calls this curse a gift and blessing. Try telling that to your lost family members while they burn in Christendoms evil imagination. After God gives these weak fleshed, weak minded unknowledgable adolescent humans a freewill somehow you believe that God will not and cannot interfere with our will. This I absolutely see no mention of in scripture, not even enough to twist up to apply to this notion.

Now, lets go back to this aionios life or death.

"A dictionary or lexicon is the not the most authoritative place to find the true definition of a word. Especially if the word in question makes or breaks a particular controversial doctrine, such as, is punishment of the wicked for a period of time that ends, or for eternity.

In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."

Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end."

Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."

Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias?

Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK."

Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"" Ray Smith bible-truths.com

In Dr. Farrar’s book, Mercy and Judgment, (p. 378), "Since aion meant ‘age,’ aionios means, properly, ‘belonging to an age,’ or ‘age-long,’ and anyone who asserts that it must mean ‘endless’ defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant ‘eternity,’ which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek—aionios could still mean only ‘belonging to eternity’ and not ‘lasting through it."

Time and Eternity by G. T. Stevenson, (p. 63), "Since, as we have seen, the noun aion refers to a period of time it appears, very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term."

Professor Knappe of Halle wrote, "The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES."

The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, (Vol. 4, p. 641), "The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the concept of eternity as timelessness." Page 655: "The O.T. has not developed a special term for eternity." Page 645: "The use of the word aion in the N.T. is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means long, distant, uninterrupted time. The intensifying plural occurs frequently in the N.T. but it adds no new meaning." (Such as forever and ever and ever and ever)

There is absolutely no mention of eternity in the scriptures. The time dealt with was up until Christ putting down all rule and authority and power and giving up the kingdom to God the Father who would then be all in all. After this there is no mention in scripture. The reason the Kingdom reign is called the Kingdom of our Lord Chrsit is because until He subdues all in the end of it it is His Kingdom until He puts down his rule and authority and then gives up the kingdom to His Father.

Eternity is simply not dealt with and there is no mention.Since there is no mention of everlasting death or eternal death we also see that these are merely lifeless until the dispensation of the fulness of times come in. This of course is in the end when all are subdued and the Father is accepted through Christ and God is all in all. Any torment mentionedd which is "unquenchable" is simply that, it will not be quenched (put out). It will have to burn out when there is nothing more to burn. What exactly does it burn?

WORKS!!!!!

1Co 3:13 Every man's work (does this mean every manner of man? Not!) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The works are burned and if there are any works left a reward is given. If all works are burned (all works, someone who has done nothing good or only evil works) he shall suffer loss but the man himself shall be saved yet so as by fire. Yes, the same fire that will try, judge every mans work.

God Bless, Dave

Absolute truth · Jul 17, 2008

Bible2 said:
Yes, when the Bible refers to men being able to
choose what they do, as in Joshua 24:15, that means
that men have free will, for if they had no free
will then they would have no choice what they did.

Bible2,

Listen. This is not a good argument for free will. Because a man can make a choice does not for one second prove that a man is free from outside causes for the choices he makes.

When there is a cause for you to make a choice then you were not free to make that choice. Cause and effect is not only a scientific fact but a scriptural one as well. All choices are caused by something therefore not free.

If you are decieved you are not free to believe truth are you? There must be a cause for you to walk away from the deception. In other words God must show you the deception before you can see that you are decieved right?

Cause and effect is where our choice come from. Not from within yourself apart from cause.

God Bless, Dave

Bible2 · Jul 17, 2008

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

Lets look at every instance of the terms eternal
death or everlasting death in the scriptures.

-----------------------------

There you have it, NONE, not one single time
mentioned in the scriptures.

The fate of the unsaved is simply called by different
terms, such as everlasting destruction
(2 Thessalonians 1:9), or everlasting punishment
(Matthew 25:46), or torment for ever and
ever in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:10-11),
which will occur in the lake of fire and brimstone
(Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46), which is the
second death (Revelation 21:8).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

Because the word "aionios" is not and should not be
defined as eternal or everlasting or any other word
that is defined as timelessness.

The punishment of the unsaved will be just as eternal
as the life of the saved (Matthew 25:46). The torment
of the unsaved in God's wrath will be just as forever
and ever (Revelation 14:10-11) as the life of God
Himself (Revelation 15:7b).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have
delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all
enemies under his feet.

That refers to the end of the millennium (Revelation
20:7a), and the subsequent battle of God and Magog
(Revelation 20:8-10), and the great white throne
judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), by the end of which
all Cbrist's enemies will have been placed under His
feet because Satan and all of the fallen angels and
all unsaved humans will have been cast into the lake
of fire (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Then the new earth will be created and the Father
will descend down to it in the heavenly city of
New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1-7). But still the
unsaved will continue in the lake of fire (Revelation
21:8). It will be placed on the new earth and the
saved will go forth from New Jerusalem to see the
unsaved burning forever in the lake of fire (Isaiah
66:22,24). It will be outside the walls of New
Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, cf. 21:8).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death.

That refers only to the first, temporary death,
which will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation
20:14), which is the eternal second death (Revelation
21:8, 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark
9:45-46).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto
him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto
him that put all things under him, that God may be
all in all.

All things being subdued to Christ and then the
Father doesn't mean that all things will be saved,
for the devil, the fallen angels, and all unsaved
humans will be subdued to Christ and the Father by
being cast into the eternal torment of the lake of
fire (Revelation 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Matthew
25:41,46).

"That God may be all in all" doesn't mean that the
Father is going to live inside the devil, the fallen
angels, and all unsaved humans. Instead, it's just an
idiomatic way of saying that God the Father will be
all important to all creatures, whether they're saved
or in eternal torment.

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

3: 1Ti 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior; 1Ti 2:4Who will have all
men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of
the truth.

There, "all" means "all manner of", like in Acts
10:12, for God won't save everyone (Mark 16:16),
but He will save all manner of people (Revelation
5:9b).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

And this you feel your god considers this good and
acceptable?

Yes, for He doesn't want to save everyone (Matthew
22:14); He wants to be able to show His wrath and
make His power known against the unsaved, the vessels
of wrath (Romans 9:13-22).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

Here is what your theology teaches.

A failed Jesus who cannot or will not be able to save
all because the Father does not want all to be saved,
just all manner of men, as you state.

That doesn't mean Jesus failed, but did what the
Father wanted (John 17:4,9).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

Here is what your theology teaches. . . .

Gods will is nothing more than a weak wish or desire
to have all saved but is incapable to save them all.
Mans will is stronger and more powerful than Gods.

It's not God's desire to save everyone, but His
original desire to save an individual can be thwarted
by that individual's free will in the sense that if
that elect individual hardens his heart against God
(Hebrews 3:15) and refuses to get saved, then it
becomes God's will to ensure the damnation of that
individual (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), just as it
becomes God's will to damn any saved person who
willfully continues in sin without repentance
(Hebrews 10:26-29) or who commits apostasy (Hebrews
6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b) or who refuses to do good
works (Matthew 25:26,30) or who worships the
Antichrist and his image and takes his mark on his
hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-13).

Man's will isn't stronger and more powerful than
God's because no man will be able to escape damnation
if God wills him to be damned. But God has no
interest in saving people by turning them into robots
with no free will; He wants real children who love
Him by their own free will. So if an elect or saved
person rejects Him, He's not going to force them to
love Him. They are thwarting His will that they love
Him, but they aren't thwarting His will that they
only love Him by their own free will. For them to
become robots would thwart His will no less than
their rejecting Him by their own free will. And
when they reject Him, His will changes so that He
no longer wants to save them, but to make sure that
they're damned; and they won't be able to thwart
that damnation by any act of their will. So, in the
end, God's will will always be done. He always wins
in the end, no matter what the will of man may want.

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

Your God is a respector of persons who has
predestinated only a few to recieve eternal life
while all others recieve eternal death and this is
a fair and just judgement.

God is no repecter of persons (Acts 10:34b); He will
still damn an elect person if they do any of those
things listed a couple of paragraphs above, and He
will not save a non-elect person no matter how great
and respected they may be in the eyes of the world.

Eternal death is a fair and just judgment, for the
wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and all of the
unsaved are sinners (Romans 3:23). This is not to
say that the saved aren't sinners as well, or any
better than the unsaved (Romans 3:9-12), but the
saved are saved wholly by God's mercy (Titus 3:3-5),
meaning that the saved don't receive the fair and
just judgment for their sins, like the unsaved will.

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

You state that God created us with the very freewill
that has sent miriads of souls to burn for all
eternity. And God had no forsight of this before
giving such a horrible power to weak minded, weak
fleshed humans?

God had perfect foresight of that. And He chose to
save a few of those humans (Matthew 22:14), while
letting the others serve as an opportunity for Him
to reveal His wrath and make His power known (Romans
9:13-22). The purpose of creating mankind was not the
benefit of mankind, but the pleasure of God
(Revelation 4:11, Proverbs 16:4). To say that He's
evil to create humans knowing they will end up in
hell for their free-willed sins is only saying that
one thinks that humans are more important than God,
that God has no right to create human vessels of
wrath (Romans 9:20-22). But humans are not more
important than God, or even equally important to
God. Instead, infinitesimal humans, even all
together, are worth less than nothing compared with
the infinite, Almighty God (Isaiah 40:15,17). It's
only man's Luciferian pride that wants to rail
against that most basic fact, and think that he's as
important as God, if not more so.

So, in the end it's Universalism, the idea that God
has to save everyone, which is so utterly opposed to
God's Sovereignty that it denies His will, and His
right, to damn as many humans as He pleases to eternal
torment for their free-willed sins, so that He might
have the pleasure of showing His wrath, and making His
power known forever (Romans 9:22, Revelation
14:10-11, 4:11, Proverbs 16:4). That will be the
ultimate proof and eternal affirmation of His total
Sovereignty, the total Power of His Free Will over
humans, despite their free will.

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

Any torment mentionedd which is "unquenchable" is
simply that, it will not be quenched (put out). It
will have to burn out when there is nothing more to
burn. What exactly does it burn?

The eternal, resurrected bodies of the unsaved
(Matthew 10:28). They will be resurrected before they
are judged (Revelation 20:12-13) and damned (John
5:29) into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Their
resurrection bodies, like those of the saved, will be
incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:42) in the sense that
if their bodies are ever injured their bodies will
restore themselves. So when the lake of fire burns up
part of the body of an unsaved person, that part will
grow back to be burned up again, just as when the
immortal worms in the lake of fire eat up part of
his body, it will grow back to be eaten up again.
The fire will never be quenched and the worms will
never die (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:45-46).

Absolute truth posted in message #74:

1Co 3:13 Every man's work (does this mean every
manner of man? Not!) shall be made manifest: for the
day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed
by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of
what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall
suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so
as by fire.

That's referring only to every saved man who builds
up church congregations after those churches have
been planted (1 Corinthians 3:6-17).

Emmy · Jul 17, 2008

Dear chestertonrules. If by Predestination you mean that some of us are already saved, whether they will believe their good works will save them, or whether they believe that good works are not necessary, then I cannot see where our free Will to choose to follow Christ, comes in. Christ gave us 2 Commandments, which contain all 10 Commandments, God gave us. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love each other, as you love yourselves. " Which means DO and Say to others, as you would like others Do and Say to us. Faith without works is barren, but Faith which brings forth, or results in Good Works, is what we need. Jesus also told us to become perfect as God is perfect, and He also told us " follow me, and I will lead to green pastures." A Christian must Repent, exchange the old selfish man, for a new, selflessly loving and caring one. Then follow Jesus back to our Heavenly Father, and our original home in Heaven. I cannot see where the Calvinist is any different. I say this with humility and love, chestertonrules. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Albion · Jul 17, 2008

Emmy said:
Dear chestertonrules. If by Predestination you mean that some of us are already saved, whether they will believe their good works will save them, or whether they believe that good works are not necessary, then I cannot see where our free Will to choose to follow Christ, comes in. Christ gave us 2 Commandments, which contain all 10 Commandments, God gave us. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love each other, as you love yourselves. " Which means DO and Say to others, as you would like others Do and Say to us. Faith without works is barren, but Faith which brings forth, or results in Good Works, is what we need. Jesus also told us to become perfect as God is perfect, and He also told us " follow me, and I will lead to green pastures." A Christian must Repent, exchange the old selfish man, for a new, selflessly loving and caring one. Then follow Jesus back to our Heavenly Father, and our original home in Heaven. I cannot see where the Calvinist is any different. I say this with humility and love, chestertonrules. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Bible2 · Jul 17, 2008

Absolute truth posted in messsage #75:

Because a man can make a choice does not for one
second prove that a man is free from outside causes
for the choices he makes.

That depends how one defines "free" and "causes".
Clearly, we are not free from outside forces trying
to influence what we choose to do. And if we choose
to go along with one of those forces' suggestions
then it could be said that that force caused us to
make a certain decision, but only in the sense that
we probably wouldn't have chosen to do what we did
if we hadn't heard that force's suggestion.

But we are always free to choose what we do despite
the suggestions of every outside force. If we
weren't, then we would have no choice what we did,
and the Bible says that we have choice what we do
(e.g. Deuteronomy 23:16, Joshua 24:15).

Absolute truth posted in messsage #75:

All choices are caused by something therefore not
free.

All choices are caused by free will in the sense that
no outside force can ever make you make a certain
choice; it's always up to you. If it weren't, it
wouldn't be called your choice.

Absolute truth posted in messsage #75:

If you are decieved you are not free to believe
truth are you?

That depends on whether or not you know the truth,
just as if you are crippled, your ability to walk
will depend on whether or not you have crutches.
If a deceived person knows the truth but chooses
to believe the deception, then he's like a crippled
person who has crutches but chooses not to use them.
If a deceived person doesn't know the truth, then
he's like a crippled person who has no crutches.
But a deceived person who doesn't know the truth
still has free will, just as a crippled person who
has no crutches still has free will. Free will
doesn't mean you can do anything; it doesn't mean
that a crippled person with no crutches can choose
to walk without them, or that a deceived person who
doesn't know the truth can choose to believe the
truth. Free will means that you can choose to do
anything that you are equipped to do.

Absolute truth posted in messsage #75:

There must be a cause for you to walk away from the
deception. In other words God must show you the
deception before you can see that you are decieved
right?

Even if God shows you the deception, you still have
to choose to walk away from it; He's not going to
force you to. Just as if God gives some crutches to
a crippled person, that person still has to choose
to walk with them; God's not going to force that
person to walk with them.

Absolute truth posted in messsage #75:

Cause and effect is where our choice come from. Not
from within yourself apart from cause.

Again, this depends on how we define "cause". If God
shows us a deception and we choose to walk away from
it, then it could be said that God caused us to walk
away from it, but only in the sense that if He hadn't
shown us the deception we probably wouldn't have
chosen to walk away from it. But He never causes us
to walk away from deception in the sense of forcing us
to, in the sense of our having no choice whether we
walk away from it or not.

Likewise, if God gives crutches to a crippled person
and that person chooses to walk with them, then it
could be said that God caused that person to walk,
but only in the sense that if He hadn't given that
person the crutches then that person probably
wouldn't have walked. But He never causes crippled
people to walk with crutches in the sense of forcing
them to, in the sense of their having no choice
whether they get up and walk with them or not.

The choice to actually get up and walk will have to
come from within the person himself, just as our
choosing to actually walk away from a deception once
it is shown to us will have to come from within
ourselves. That's what free will means.

Charis kai Dunamis · Jul 17, 2008

chestertonrules said:
I believe that God is outside of time, and I think most of those reading this do as well.

This means that all our actions are known to God, past, present and future. Our works, our faith, our seeking of his grace, etc. have already happened.

He knows us completely, but we aren't there yet. I believe that the elect are already chosen when viewed from his perspective.

It's good you have a view of God being eternal, and are willing to admit that the elect are "already chosen", that is, they've been chosen before all creation, all the way into eternity past, in the mind of God.

chestertonrules said:
The question is, based on what criteria are we chosen? The Calvinist, who believe unconditional election is true, hold that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation. I don't think this is biblical. I think the chosen are those who follow God's will.

And here is your problem as well as practically everyone else who disagrees with Calvinism. They make statements like such and completely misrepresent Calvinism-

chestertonrules said:
The Calvinist, who believe .... that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation

You wording is wrong. What we Calvinists believe is that we have no impact on our election, not our salvation. We place faith in Christ (although it is irresistable), there is a choice made, in that we see the truth and we respond. We do not believe this is APART from election, but that election is the cause of it. But don't try to misrepresent us, that one night we go to sleep a sinner and wake up the next morning saved, and we had no part. We do have a part, but it is never apart from the election of God.

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