the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

Muckah said:

All you're doing is saying stuff with about the man of sin being a Jew without providing any scriptural basis for it. How many candidates have you had before Zelensky in the past?

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None. And I have been studying eschatology fifty years.

I have been giving you scriptural reasons why the person has to be a Jew. But you may not be comprehending those scriptures or are just glossing over them. Please take a look at my post #98.

Muckah said:

I'm confused. Your view of Daniel 9 comes from the dispensationalist view of Daniel 9?

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No my view does not. You might as well be saying that my view comes from the Republican or Democrat view of Daniel 9.

Please show me one dispensationalist that says the confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for 7 years is based on Deuteronomy 31:9-13 (my view) and is not a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Differently, I think you are going to find that dispensationalists all will say it is a peace treaty.

I don't where you came up with notion that anyone who thinks that the 70th week is end times is a dispensationalist or clings to that system. But you need to get it out of your mind, unless you are engaged with someone over the virtures or shortcomings of that that system.

Why don't you start a thread on dispensationalism if you want to discuss it with others. Me, personally, it holds no interest for me.

Super Kal said:

you sound more like a dispensationalist than an historicist with that line...
again, one can remain on the earth, and not experience God's wrath, and Noah, Moses, the Jews, and Lot all prove that.


actually, it doesnt say otherwise.
as a matter of fact, it proves my point.

Revelation 11:18 uses the word "orge" for wrath, the same word you find in 1 Thess1:10 and 1 Thess5:9, however the wrath you see in Rev15 and 16 is not "orge", it's "thymos"... "thymos" and "orge" are not the same thing. They mean wrath, but they have different meanings, "thymos" is an emotional wrath that quickly flares up but then just as quickly dies back down, while "orge" is more defined as "indignation", and is a wrath dealt out by magistrates...

the wrath mentioned in Rev6:12-17 uses the word "orge" as well, so the "wrath" we are not appointed to is found during the sixth seal, which i believe is the end of the tribulation period, because the events mentioned in those verses are found in Matthew 24:29-31 and Rev16:20 with the seventh bowl

the truth of the matter is, the bowls of wrath are not the only wrath scripture refers to... there is another wrath to God; the Lake of Fire.
i believe the bowls of wrath is God's thymos wrath, and the Lake of Fire is God's "orge" wrath...


my scheme, huh... i detect some malice in this part of your post...
just so you know, if you're trying to dig into my heel, it wont work. i no longer get so worked up over things like this. honestly, i would rather have a civil discussion instead of having a flame war that does nothing to encourage one another

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I maintain the 70 weeks are not protracted; dispensationalists hold they are. And I don’t see how you’ve surmounted that the NT promise to the Church has anything to do with past patriarchs.

I would garner that the differences in nuances between “orge” and “thymos” are to evoke that the wrath is both transitory (flares up but then just as quickly dies back down) and that it portrays God’s “indignation” that is dealt out like a magistrate.

The use of “thymos” actually agrees with the imagery of Revelation 11:15-18, maintaining the wrath flares up quickly but it’s transitory, as the saints are caught up with Christ. And it maintains the sixth seal is a flash-forward, which is a common method used by the prophets.

Take for instance Daniel 7. In verse 11 Daniel flashes forward to the destruction of the little horn/beast by the burning flame, which corresponds to the wrath, but then he moves back in time, pre-wrath, to explain how he rises and how God uses him to chastise the saints until the time comes to judge him and give his kingdom to the saints.

We'll see how civil our correspondence remains.

Douggg said:

...if you are historist, charts are not useful, because the historist view is unworkable.


The bible does not put all of the events leading up to Jesus's Second Coming in one place.

The timing and relationship of the events have to be assembled. A chart is nothing more that a visible diagram representing all of the events in that fashion.

Since it appears that you don't have chart making skills, list the events in timeline order leading up to Jesus's Second Coming.

What is event immediately precedes Jesus's Second Coming? You should be about to figure that out from Ezekiel 39:17-20, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:18-19, Psalms 2:1-3.

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You couldn’t produce the scripture that maintains charts are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, could you?

You’re missing the point; do the futurist’s presuppositions, by which you construct your charts, stand up against what the scriptures relate? No, they don’t. The futurist’s presupposition that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations is not scriptural. It’s this presupposition that they built the unorthodox view that Christ returns to deal strictly with Daniel’s people again under the wrath and on the seventieth week. It is an open thesis or Arminian perception that God’s prophecies are contingent on man’s will, in defiance of Romans 9:16, 1 Peter 2:5-8, and 4:17. God ordained the Church as the vehicle by which he restores Jacob in the wilderness and brings in the Gentiles.


“Though Israel be not gathered,” God’s Servant, Christ, is tasked to raise the tribes of Jacob while bringing salvation to the Gentiles and unto the ends of the earth. Furthermore, this is achieved under conditions where Judah abhors and despises God’s Servant. Jacob is being brought back to God, raised, and restored as a prelude to their gathering. Again, the Church is the vehicle by which he restores Jacob in the wilderness and brings in the Gentiles.

Super Kal said:

so, I'll just come out and say it at the beginning so everyone knows how i view this, I'm personally a premillennial, futurist, post-trib. i understand there are others who would disagree with me, and im perfectly fine with that, that's why i dont want to limit who can respond. i would like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions based on what they have searched and studied

in my search and study of eschatology, i've come across an individual named Pastor Bill MacGregor. now he himself is a post trib, pre wrath, however he does have some peculiar beliefs:

~ he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

~ he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation, while the first seal was Kushner promoting peace with the Abraham Accords, and the second seal being the vaccine.

~ because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

~ in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

i would love to hear everyone's thought and opinions based on scriptures as to why this pastor may be right or wrong

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A simple timeline of the Bibles end time prophecy? Here it is. From the beginning of The Age of the Gentiles, (the four gentile empires when Nebuchadnezzar first conquered Judea until Titus, the prince of Daniel 9:26 is 666 years. 597 BC to 70 AD, (no year -0-). The next emperor after Titus is the first of the ten emperors prophesied is Daniel 7:7,24, Revelation 12:3, 13:1 & 17:3,12. By the way, Revelation 17:11 is Titus.

The little horn of Daniel 7:8, 24-25 is the eleventh of the ten emperors following Titus, Septimius Serverus. From the first year of his reign, 193 AD to the end of the Roman Empire is 1260 years. That number is mentioned first in Daniel 7:25 in regards to the saints being given into the hands of that empire for that amount of time. Then also in Revelation 13:5, 12:6,14 &11:1,3. The Roman Empire and The Age of the Gentiles ended in 1453 AD. From that time forward the hundred plus chapters of Bible prophecy about our present free world began to come to pass. How and why? Because that is exactly when the Bible, for the first time in human history started to make its way into the hands of the general public, in their own languages. Plus, without the powers that existed being able to take it away from them. They certainly tried.

The growing free world is exactly what this prophecy said would happen once the general population began to gain access to the Bible.

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 20 For the terrible one (kings, emperors, warlords, conquerors) is brought to nothing, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: 21That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproves in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nothing.

Or just as this prophecy said:
Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not thither, but waters the earth, and makes it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.12 For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

in a few months my new book will be out. "The Bibles Prophecy About The Free World." It points out a bunch of the more prominent chapters of prophecy about the world we now live in and the failing resistance to the free worlds growth.

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Muckah said:

There is nothing historical about Daniel 7, and Rome is non-existent in Daniel 2 and 7. ALL FOUR BEAST of ch. 7 are end-time beast.

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Daniel 2 names Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon as the first of the four empires. Daniel chap 8 names Medo\Persia and Greece as the second and third empires. Daniel 11 after going over the wars between the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt prophesies of Herod the Great in Daniel 11:36-36-39 then Octavians (Caeser Augustus) march through Judea to conquer the last section of the Greek empire for Rome. In Revelation the same four empires are prophesied about over and over. In Revelation 17:10 John received his vision during the reign of Romes 6th emperor.
You need to yield to the Bibles own interpretations of its own prophecies. There is no such thing as understanding them outside of its own interpretations.

Jerryhuerta said:

You couldn’t produce the scripture that maintains charts are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, could you?

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Jerry, that is a lame argument. Take a look at your avatar, the same could be said for the book you wrote.

Jerryhuerta said:

The futurist’s presupposition that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations is not scriptural.

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Jerry, futurists maintain that there is only one way to be saved whether Jew or Gentile, and that is by believing upon the shed blood of Christ and his resurrection on the third day.

Israel is a nation made up of the descendants of Jacob, i.e. the children of Israel. Generically, commonly called Jews. The Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years.

Jerryhuerta said:

Again, the Church is the vehicle by which he restores Jacob in the wilderness and brings in the Gentiles.

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The Holy Spirit is who draws men to Jesus.
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Jerry, you have not responded with what events precede Jesus's Second Coming.

Since you do not have chart making skills, make a written list of events in order.

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Muckah said:

Daniel 8 shows the Medes and Persians as two totally separate kingdoms before they merged into the Ram. The two didn't merge until Darius and the Medes took out Babylon - NOT Cyrus the Persian.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.

I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:19-21
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

The higher horn that came up last is the Persian Empire. The other horn, the one that was 'not as high' (smaller/inferior) that came up first is the Medes. The two eventually merged into the ram or the Persian Empire. This means that the Median Empire is the smaller kingdom that emerged first as the 'inferior' kingdom of Daniel 2. AKA - the arms of silver.

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Not even a nice try. Still cited as one empire by the illustration of a Ram. Cited as one empire in Daniel 7 as a bear, Daniel 2 as breasts and arms of silver. 4 empires, not 5, not 6 as it states in all these prophecies.

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Muckah said:

Daniel 7 is NOT a repeat prophecy of Daniel 2. Daniel 7's four beast represent four end-time empires that exist on earth at the same time.

The sequence of kingdoms I believe are represented in Daniel 2 predates the one that claims Rome is the legs of iron. Josephus had it...

Babylon
Medes
Persians
Greeks
iron/clay = Seleucids

It goes back to the time of Josephus which is...

Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s = Thighs of brass
Greeks = Legs of iron.

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Hmmm, that would mean both Daniel 2 and 7 are false prophecies because the Kingdom of God as you define in your imagination did not come after the four successive empires. lets see that makes it 5 empires plus 4 more at the end times? no different than the gibberish of the rest of the worlds fake religions and their prophecies and no wonder there is no power or witness from heaven to convince people of the truth of such prophecy.
Your issue, and I know you don't think you have one is your imagination of what the kingdom of God prophesied to come is. There are well over 100 chapters of prophecy about it in the OT. It is THOSE PROPHECIES that Daniel is giving us a timeline as to when they will start coming to pass in the world and it is 1000% tied to when the general public began to get accesses to their own Bibles in their own languages to be able to read themselves which just happened, stranger than fiction, to start when the Roman empire ended in 1453 AD.
Isaiah 29: 18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. 19 The meek also shall increase [their] joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: 21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

The word terrible ones in Hebrew is talking about the emperors, kings warlords dictators of the world. The line of demarcation between the ancient despotic world and a growing free world prophesied in Daniel and revelation is the end of the roman Empire 1453 AD when what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople was conquered and the last Roman Emperor killed. That is when these prophecies about a free world began to come to pass.

Isaiah 60: 3 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. 5 Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you. (ESV)

Isaiah 49:6 He says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”...8 Thus said the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in a day of salvation have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publishes peace; that brings good tidings of good, that publishes salvation; that said to Zion, Your God reigns! ..... 10 The LORD has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.... 13 Behold, my servant (the messiah) shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14 As many were astonished at you; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isaiah 42:Behold my servant, (the messiah) whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit on him: he shall bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth justice to truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus said God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and give you for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Muckah said:

The God of his fathers is the God of Israel and Abraham.

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Jacob's name was changed to Israel. The muslims (the Arab nations) are not descendants of Jacob.

Muckah said:

...."nor the desire of women..."

This doesn't mean that the man of sin will be a homosexual! It means that the man of sin will not care about what women desire! That in itself is a Muslim trait!

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I don't think that implies that the person will be a homosexual. I have heard a couple of interpretations. One of which is that the desire of women is to be the mother of the messiah.

Another one, by Rashi, based on a different translation, at the Judaism 101 site, online Tanach ...
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16494/showrashi/true

37And he will not contemplate the gods of his fathers, and the most desirable of women and any god he will not contemplate, for he will magnify himself over all.

Rashi comments...

"And he will not contemplate the gods of his fathers: he will not put his mind to the Holy One, blessed be He, Who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, his [i. e., Israel’s] forefathers.


the most desirable of women: the nation of Israel, [called] fairest of women."

If you go to that link, click on the "show" Rashi's comments.

Personally, I am not sure of what the "not the desire of women" implies.

Muckah said:

Daniel 7 is NOT a repeat prophecy of Daniel 2. Daniel 7's four beast represent four end-time empires that exist on earth at the same time.

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Why not? Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 both end the same way - with the kingdom of God the ruling kingdom over the nations of the earth.

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Muckah said:

That would make your interpretation of Daniel 2 and 7 false because I never inferred that...



Here I am discussing Daniel 2 and 7 and you're off into Isaiah???

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I don’t think that you understand that you inferred that because both prophecies end with the kingdom of heaven filling the earth after the fourth one.
If as you said the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 is Greece that automatically disqualifies it as the Word of God because the kingdom of God did not start to fill the whole earth at its end.

Then you stated the Daniel 7 is a prophecy of four additional kingdoms which also disqualifies the whole book of Daniel’s legitimacy as divinely inspired because you just added four additional kingdoms to the four in Daniel 2 that claim the kingdom of God follows them.

The reason i put a few passages of Isaiah up is because they are a microcosm of a hundred OT chapters about that kingdom of God that fills the whole earth following the fourth empires, the Roman Empire’s fall in 1453 AD. The kingdom Christ came to establish is invisible and one of influence not supernatural military conquest. Its influence via the Bible getting into the hands of the general public created this growing free world that never existed before that you are living in. A world in which the earthly promises of God could finally begin to come to pass in the lives of his saints. That world has to be won though, as none if those 100+ chapters describe it as a supernatural utopia. They point out resistance and war that fails as the nations most influenced by the Bible become dominant. A fact we have living out for 500 years now.

Douggg said:

Jerry, that is a lame argument. Take a look at your avatar, the same could be said for the book you wrote.

Jerry, futurists maintain that there is only one way to be saved whether Jew or Gentile, and that is by believing upon the shed blood of Christ and his resurrection on the third day.

Israel is a nation made up of the descendants of Jacob, i.e. the children of Israel. Generically, commonly called Jews. The Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years.
The Holy Spirit is who draws men to Jesus.
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Jerry, you have not responded with what events precede Jesus's Second Coming.

Since you do not have chart making skills, make a written list of events in order.

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You don’t know how to stay on point, Doug. That’s why you try and deflect with issues like charts. I have to bring you back on point by pointing out we don’t challenge doctrine with charts; we challenge them with scripture according to 2 Timothy 3:16. I’m challenging your presuppositions and doctrines by which you create your charts with the scriptures, plain and simple.

Futurists erroneously uphold two mediations: one for Israel and one for the Church. It leads to outrageous statements like, “Jews currently don't believe in Jesus, but will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the seven years,” which is your statement.

As I previously stated, Judeans and Ephraimites have been embracing their covenant, the one that Christ mediates (Hebrews 12:22-24), for the past 2000 years. Every Judean and Ephraimite that God has ordained to be saved has been saved since Christ’s first advent through the ordained vehicle of the Church. (See The Parable of the Wedding Feast.) This is upheld in the OT by the prophecies that Ephraim and Judah would find grace in the wilderness while sown throughout the world. (Note that the chapter below is in the context of the New Covenant).


The promise to sow both houses of Israel and to plant and care for them in the wilderness agrees with all the prophets and is the source of the prophecies of Christ in his parables, especially the parable of the wheat and the tares.


The point is that the prophecies of the OT are being precisely fulfilled on time, which upholds the Church as the ordained vehicle to restore both houses of Israel under their own New Covenant, which demolishes the dispensationalist and preterist’s eschatologies built upon sand. God isn’t waiting to save the Jews when Christ returns; he finishes what he started back at the first advent. Dispensationalism and preterism simply can’t grasp that not all were ordained to be saved (Romans 9:6, 16).

Douggg said:

What is event immediately precedes Jesus's Second Coming? You should be about to figure that out from Ezekiel 39:17-20, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:18-19, Psalms 2:1-3.

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The only event prior to the Second Coming is the blooming of the fig tree.

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