The Major Problem with Calvinism...

[mlqurgw]

I apologize for disrespecting you and anyone else. I should have substantiated my statement. You are absolutely right. I just don't find anything in the Word that supports Calvinism. I think most problems with the Neo-Calvinist movement is that are extrapolating principles from scriptures on salvation or dispensation and completely ignoring the Gospel narratives on Salvation. The life and words of Jesus completely refute Calvinism on their own. I will provide one example.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

If Jesus was a Calvinist, why would He say this? If Jesus created the Israelites to not be on the Pre-selected list of saved people, why would he then cry out and lament over them? Why would He say "ye would not!" It makes Jesus completely illogical. He is upset about a situation He specifically designed and planned out from the "foundation of the world." He wanted the Jews to be that way and reject Him (for His own reasons that we'll never know according to Calvinism) but then He's upset with them for doing precisely what He created them to do. It just doesn't make sense.

What you have proven is that you are blind and don't know what Calvinism is. If you don't see election in the Scriptures you haven't read the Scriptures. What exactly do you think Calvinists believe?

 

[NJBeliever]

What you have proven is that you are blind and don't know what Calvinism is. If you don't see election in the Scriptures you haven't read the Scriptures. What exactly do you think Calvinists believe?

I did not say election is not in the Scriptures. I said Calvinism is not in the scriptures. Election is certainly in the Bible. But it does not mean "salvation." It refers to specific blessings for those who are already in Christ or Abraham, or a specific office/role for a person.

As for what Calvinists believe, I submit this:

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I have already provided a substantive reason for why I believe the Bible refutes Calvinism. I think that Jesus Christ in the passage I listed refutes it.

 

[mlqurgw]

I did not say election is not in the Scriptures. I said Calvinism is not in the scriptures. Election is certainly in the Bible. But it does not mean "salvation." It refers to specific blessings for those who are already in Christ or Abraham, or a specific office/role for a person.

Which means that Eph. 1:4 is wrong.

As for what Calvinists believe, I submit this:

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which proves you can do a search and read what someone else thinks but it doesn't prove you actually know anything of what Calvinism is. I didn't ask you to point me to a link I asked you to telll me your own thoughts. I can't guage where you are coming from by someoene elses views. That was the point of the question.

And I have already provided a substantive reason for why I believe the Bible refutes Calvinism. I think that Jesus Christ in the passage I listed refutes it.

Actually you have given one verse of Scripture out of its context and infered something from it that is against the teaching of the whole of Scripture. I am afraid it will require much more than a verse to prove that Calvinism is unbiblical.

 

[NJBeliever]

Which means that Eph. 1:4 is wrong.

Which proves you can do a search and read what someone else thinks but it doesn't prove you actually know anything of what Calvinism is. I didn't ask you to point me to a link I asked you to telll me your own thoughts. I can't guage where you are coming from by someoene elses views. That was the point of the question.

Actually you have given one verse of Scripture out of its context and infered something from it that is against the teaching of the whole of Scripture. I am afraid it will require much more than a verse to prove that Calvinism is unbiblical.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. You have just provided the perfect example of what I am talking about. You cite Ephesians 1:4 to support Calvinism. First off, this verse ends in a colon, so it's not a complete thought. So for that reason alone, it's not a strong proof text. But let's look at it in context.

Ephesians 1: 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



So the entire theme of this section of this passage, are the "spiritual blessings" we are to receive. This is what election is about: blessings received for those in Christ. Not salvation. The "chosen in him before the foundation" is explained in the subsequent verses (we know this because there is a colon). The adoption we receive is a blessing a result of our salvation. We get the benefit of being co-heirs with Christ on top of being saved.



Additionally we are predestinated "to be the praise of the glory of his grace." That is the consequence of the initial thought. That is what God has foreordained, which just means he has decreed that those who are saved will be the praise of the glory of his grace.


We then see this exact same idea being conveyed in verses 11 and 12--


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Once again, we see "predestinated" being linked to our Heavenly inhereritance. We are predestined clearly, to be the praise of God's glory. It's not about being pre-destined to be saved.



Paul even goes on to state that this is all happening and being set up because we are saved. It's not to make us saved. It's because we trusted in Christ, that these blessings are being bestwoed. And notice when describing the salvation prcoess, it is hearing, believing and then the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Something else to keep in mind as well.



Just a plain, grammatically-correct, reading of the scripture, makes it clear that salvation is not even at issue in this passage.



As for my verse that I provided, you have only made one normative response towards it. That is not addressing the points I made. I welcome a substantive response. God bless.

 

[mlqurgw]

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. You have just provided the perfect example of what I am talking about. You cite Ephesians 1:4 to support Calvinism. First off, this verse ends in a colon, so it's not a complete thought. So for that reason alone, it's not a strong proof text. But let's look at it in context.

Ephesians 1: 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



So the entire theme of this section of this passage, are the "spiritual blessings" we are to receive. This is what election is about: blessings received for those in Christ. Not salvation. The "chosen in him before the foundation" is explained in the subsequent verses (we know this because there is a colon). The adoption we receive is a blessing a result of our salvation. We get the benefit of being co-heirs with Christ on top of being saved.



Additionally we are predestinated "to be the praise of the glory of his grace." That is the consequence of the initial thought. That is what God has foreordained, which just means he has decreed that those who are saved will be the praise of the glory of his grace.


We then see this exact same idea being conveyed in verses 11 and 12--


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Once again, we see "predestinated" being linked to our Heavenly inhereritance. We are predestined clearly, to be the praise of God's glory. It's not about being pre-destined to be saved.



Paul even goes on to state that this is all happening and being set up because we are saved. It's not to make us saved. It's because we trusted in Christ, that these blessings are being bestwoed. And notice when describing the salvation prcoess, it is hearing, believing and then the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Something else to keep in mind as well.



Just a plain, grammatically-correct, reading of the scripture, makes it clear that salvation is not even at issue in this passage.



As for my verse that I provided, you have only made one normative response towards it. That is not addressing the points I made. I welcome a substantive response. God bless.

Since this is not a debate forum I am not going to debate you here. And since you haven't actually answered my question I will not debate you anywhere else either. I am not interested in a debate but will answer any questions you might have.

 

[NJBeliever]

Since this is not a debate forum I am not going to debate you here. And since you haven't actually answered my question I will not debate you anywhere else either. I am not interested in a debate but will answer any questions you might have.

I wasn't looking for a debate. I was explaining why the verse that you chose to cite does not support Election to salvation (which does not exist in the Bible). My question to you is simple: what verses in the Bible show election to salvation??

And I did answer your question. You just chose not to accept my answer. LOL. Meanwhile, you have stated that I took a verse out of context and have yet to say anything to substantiate it.

 

[mlqurgw]

I wasn't looking for a debate. I was explaining why the verse that you chose to cite does not support Election to salvation (which does not exist in the Bible). My question to you is simple: what verses in the Bible show election to salvation??

And I did answer your question. You just chose not to accept my answer. LOL. Meanwhile, you have stated that I took a verse out of context and have yet to say anything to substantiate it.

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(2Th 2:14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[NJBeliever]

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(2Th 2:14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's interesting that you got on me about context because this is the second verse you have now used out of context. This time you have used a verse that begins with "But". Thus the verse must be predicated on what preceded it because a contrast is being drawn.


2 Thessalonians 2: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand....
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Now most people will agree that this passage, in context, is discussing the Antichrist. It is describing the powers he is going to have and the lying signs and wonders which will deceive almost everyone on the planet, and then they will be even more deluded. Why? Because they didn't believe the Gospel.



BUT the church of Thessalonica, who already believed, were going to be blessed with escaping all of these horrible events of the future. "Salvation" here does not mean being born again. It means being saved from the Great Tribulation. This was the concern of the church at Thessalonica. They were worried that the Day of The Lord had already come. Paul was giving them even more signposts to know they had not missed it. And when describing the horrors of the antichrist, he assures them that they are not going to be a part of it. This chapter has nothing do with being born again.

This verse is actually confirming what was first written in 1 Thessalonians 5:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night....
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



Again, the concern here was that the dead brothers and sisters in the church were not going to make it to Heaven somehow. Paul is assuring them that when the Day of The Lord comes, it's coming like a thief, but believers will be taken to meet the Lord (he just described the rapture in the preceding verses. This is in reference to those who ALREADY are saved. So again "salvation" in verse 9 means escaping the wrath of God, not being saved. We will be with Christ when God is pouring out his wrath on Earth.


Again, this is a plain reading of the scripture in context. And there is no election to salvation. I am just trying to show that for brothers and sisters on here because I think often this the case with "election." Do you have any other verses you believe prove Calvinism?



God bless.

 

[heymikey80]

It's interesting that you got on me about context because this is the second verse you have now used out of context. This time you have used a verse that begins with "But". Thus the verse must be predicated on what preceded it because a contrast is being drawn.


2 Thessalonians 2: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand....
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Now most people will agree that this passage, in context, is discussing the Antichrist. It is describing the powers he is going to have and the lying signs and wonders which will deceive almost everyone on the planet, and then they will be even more deluded. Why? Because they didn't believe the Gospel.



BUT the church of Thessalonica, who already believed, were going to be blessed with escaping all of these horrible events of the future. "Salvation" here does not mean being born again. It means being saved from the Great Tribulation. This was the concern of the church at Thessalonica. They were worried that the Day of The Lord had already come. Paul was giving them even more signposts to know they had not missed it. And when describing the horrors of the antichrist, he assures them that they are not going to be a part of it. This chapter has nothing do with being born again.

As the verse itself points out,

because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth​

So actually, no it doesn't stand to reason that this is future, because the words being used actually strain back to the beginning, and describe the actual process Paul calls attention to for "salvation -- through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

 

[NJBeliever]

As the verse itself points out,

because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth​

So actually, no it doesn't stand to reason that this is future, because the words being used actually strain back to the beginning, and describe the actual process Paul calls attention to for "salvation -- through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

Right. From the beginning God has made a plan for a certain group of people to be raptured away and escape the outpouring of his wrath (The Day of The Lord). Those who are sanctified and believe the Gospel will be able to receive that blessing. This passage is not about salvation. It's about The Day of The Lord and being with The Lord during the time of His wrath. That's why I listed more of the chapter because the context is very clear (in fact, it's why this entire epistle was written). God bless.

 

[Kennesaw]

"<font color="SeaGreen">Calvinists tend to be more intellectual and reserved by nature.</font>"<br>Intellectual, yes. Because Calvinists place a premium on <i>knowing</i> and <i>understanding</i> God's rather extensive 66-book revelation, using their God-given minds to do so. Neither that revelation nor the plan of redemption revealed therein can be reduced to anything like the so-called "4 spiritual laws" or to a few select verses taken out of context and mindlessly repeated like some mantra: "God loves you, God loves you, God loves you." <br>No, God has given us more than that, and he expects more of us. "Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." (Luke 12:48).<br>But <i>reserved by nature</i>? I've known a lot of reformed men and women, and <i>reserved</i> I just don't see as a valid generalization. Was Luther, or Calvin, or John Knox, or George Whitfield, or Charles Spurgeon reserved? Is John Piper?<br><br>

 

[oworm]

NJBeliever This is the ASK A CALVINIST forum. You are only allowed to ask questions about Calvinist belief here

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever This is the ASK A CALVINIST forum. You are only allowed to ask questions about Calvinist belief here

Fine. So I will ask you (or anyone else who cares to answer) the same question (and will voice no opinion or thoughts on the answers, since that is not permitted):

What is the Biblical basis (i.e., the scriptures) that prove Calvinism???? I ask because I have not seen one yet. God bless.

 

[oworm]

Fine. So I will ask you (or anyone else who cares to answer) the same question (and will voice no opinion or thoughts on the answers, since that is not permitted):

What is the Biblical basis (i.e., the scriptures) that prove Calvinism???? I ask because I have not seen one yet. God bless.

Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21

 

[Arete]

I have often been disturbed by the way Calvinism is misrepresented and even demonized. However, I have come to see that non-Calvinists often must misrepresent us so that their views are easier to defend and maintain.

 

[NJBeliever]

Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21

Was that a sincere answer? Or were you just mocking me?

I fear it was the latter but it's fine. All is forgiven. But if you could show some specific verses, I would really, genuinely like to know them and will be sure not to debate them in this forum.

 

[NJBeliever]

I have often been disturbed by the way Calvinism is misrepresented and even demonized. However, I have come to see that non-Calvinists often must misrepresent us so that their views are easier to defend and maintain.

I'm really not concerned with "portraying Calvinists" any particular way. I am much more concerned with what is the Biblical basis for what I believe to be a completely unbiblical doctrine. So if you have any verses to offer, I'd love to hear them. God bless.

 

[heymikey80]

"Those He predestined, He also called; Those He called, He also justified;" Rom 8:30

 

[oworm]

Was that a sincere answer? Or were you just mocking me?

I fear it was the latter but it's fine. All is forgiven. But if you could show some specific verses, I would really, genuinely like to know them and will be sure not to debate them in this forum.

It was the former. No need to forgive. I wasn't mocking. If I did not believe that the whole of scripture supported the Calvinist position I would not be a Calvinist.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(2Th 2:14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that God predestines people toward the Gospel. This is a very Lutheran approach and an important verse that refutes any double predestination.

So how does this verse show anything to support Calvinism?

Peace,

Cos