The Lucifer Story is Impossible

[wezcountry]

The lucifier story is possible because the bible is very credible.

Research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming circumstantial evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first-than secondly an intellectual one. I have studied other religions and they don’t come close to this evidence.
www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

Thanks for taking the time to respond, but unfortunately your reply doesn't address my point directly, you simply say that the Bible is credible. Actually, although I have a lot of sympathy with this statement (and I so wish it were true) there are factual errors in the Bible and mistranslations for example between the synoptic gospels. But that's besides the point, which is - how can it possibly be that a being who existed in heaven would choose to sin. This quite simply does not seem at all likely or even possible.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

(How) can it possibly be that a being who existed in heaven would choose to sin. This quite simply does not seem at all likely or even possible.

There was no 'sin' prior to what is known as the 'rebellion'. The concept of sin was created by God as a response to the event and 'imputed' to Lucifer and his angels. Children innocently 'sin' all the time, but until their behavior is 'deemed' improper by their parents they will continue with impunity. An undisciplined child has no reason to think that everything in sight doesn't belong to him or her. The imputing of 'sin', or misbehavior, is done after the fact. Prior to the punishment or scolding no sin exists in the mind of a child, or that of Lucifer. Prior to the rebellion God had no reason to create and impute the concept of 'sin' upon anyone. It was only after he 'determined', or 'decided', that his authority had been challenged that he responded. So Lucifer didn't 'choose' to sin, as 'sin' didn't exist. God had no reason to anticipate what he determined was an attack on his authority. It was simply 'unthinkable' to him./p>

 

[razeontherock]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God ... Surely he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

Welcome to CF!

You raise a truly troubling point of Scripture, and the bottom line is we do NOT have the answers to this. I haven't read through all the responses you've gotten, but you saying these things are a stumbling block for you seems sincere to me.

When we're left with a mystery, that is a profound statement. The point here is rebellion has consequences, and we ought to be awfully grateful WE can be redeemed. A purely incorporeal, spirit only being like satan has NO redemption available.

We can be redeemed.

Angels cannot possibly understand that ...

 

[he-man]

Nevertheless, 'Lucifer' has become the name of what many believe is: a perfectly created, beautiful, smart, bejeweled being that loves music, who is strongly identified with 'the Eden, or 'pleasure', of God, who was not confined to a ritual 'place' at the throne of God but was able to freely move about the heavenly court, desired and sought equality with God, was removed and cast down to earth, and thereafter became the 'adversary' of God and the 'man' that was created for the purpose of replacing 'him' at the right hand of God. Without (the one known as) Lucifer being an actual spiritual being nothing makes any sense.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6
This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament (Zondervan Publishers Electronic Dictionary) Zondervan - Home

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6
This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament (Zondervan Publishers Electronic Dictionary) Zondervan - Home

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.

It's a little harder to explain away Ezekiel 28.

 

[he-man]

It's a little harder to explain away Ezekiel 28.

Sounds just like Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,**

If you bother to read Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 7:23, "Make a chain, for the land is filled with crimes of blood, and the city is full of violence."

Proverbs 15:3: The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.
21: For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and He ponders all his paths.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6
This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament (Zondervan Publishers Electronic Dictionary) Zondervan - Home

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.
​

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ezekiel is instructed to take up two 'lamentations' in chapter 28; the first for the 'Prince' of Tyre, which is clearly a man; the second to the 'King' of Tyre. The verses concerning this being hardly describe a man.

 

[he-man]

Ezekiel is instructed to take up two 'lamentations' in chapter 28; the first for the 'Prince' of Tyre, which is clearly a man; the second to the 'King' of Tyre. The verses concerning this being hardly describe a man.

Sorry dude, they are all addressed to the Ruler/King of Tyrus

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince [Ruler]of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 29:18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Sorry dude, they are all addressed to the Ruler/King of Tyrus

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince [Ruler]of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 29:18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.

Nice try. Here is the whole 'lamentation', without critical verses left out. Ezekiel 28:11..... 'Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more'............The King of Tyrus was used here as a 'type' of Lucifer/Satan.

 

[he-man]

Nice try. Here is the whole 'lamentation', without critical verses left out. Ezekiel 28:11..... 'Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, The King of Tyrus was used here as a 'type' of Lucifer/Satan.

Ezekiel 28:11..... 'Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him,..16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee,..18 I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar under God's order,[engaged in a thirteen year siege of Tyre (585–572 BC), which ended in a compromise, with the Tyrians accepting Babylonian authority](586–573 BC)

Ezekiel was sure, because of Tyre's continued wickedness ("They [the Babylonians] will plunder all your riches, and merchandise and break down your walls. The will destroy your lovely homes and dump your stones and timbers and even your dust into the sea. I will stop the music of your songs. No more will the sound of harps be heard among your people. I will make your island a bare rock, a place for fishermen to spread their nets" Ezekiel 26:12-14

The name of the city means "rock" after the rocky formation on which the town was originally built.

Bikai, P., "The Land of Tyre", in Joukowsky, M., The Heritage of Tyre, 1992, chapter 2, p. 13)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ezekiel 28:11..... 'Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him,..16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee,..18 I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar under God's order,[engaged in a thirteen year siege of Tyre (585–572 BC), which ended in a compromise, with the Tyrians accepting Babylonian authority](586–573 BC)

Ezekiel was sure, because of Tyre's continued wickedness ("They [the Babylonians] will plunder all your riches, and merchandise and break down your walls. The will destroy your lovely homes and dump your stones and timbers and even your dust into the sea. I will stop the music of your songs. No more will the sound of harps be heard among your people. I will make your island a bare rock, a place for fishermen to spread their nets" Ezekiel 26:12-14

The name of the city means "rock" after the rocky formation on which the town was originally built.

Bikai, P., "The Land of Tyre", in Joukowsky, M., The Heritage of Tyre, 1992, chapter 2, p. 13)

Do you believe that God orchestrated the fall of Tyre? If so, why would he do that? Why would God be so offended at a large commercial city? Do you not see any typology in the bible?

 

[he-man]

Do you believe that God orchestrated the fall of Tyre? If so, why would he do that? Why would God be so offended at a large commercial city? Do you not see any typology in the bible?

Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God (Mk. 12:24)?

I believe what the Bible says:
1Samuel 2:6 The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Deu 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

Deu 29:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:

27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:

Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God (Mk. 12:24)?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God (Mk. 12:24)?

Interesting. I could have used the same scipture.

 

[he-man]

Interesting. I could have used the same scipture.

Eze 26:2 Aha! — exultation over a fallen rival (Psa_35:21, Psa_35:25).
she ... that was the gates — that is, the single gate composed of two folding doors. Hence the verb is singular. “Gates” were the place of resort for traffic and public business: so here it expresses a mart of commerce frequented by merchants.

Tyre regards Jerusalem not as an open enemy, for her territory being the narrow, long strip of land north of Philistia, between Mount Lebanon and the sea, her interest was to cultivate friendly relations with the Jews, on whom she was dependent for corn (Eze_27:17; 1Ki_5:9; Act_12:20).

But Jerusalem had intercepted some of the inland traffic which she wished to monopolize to herself; so, in her intensely selfish worldly-mindedness, she exulted heartlessly over the fall of Jerusalem as her own gain. Hence she incurred the wrath of God as pre-eminently the world’s representative in its ambition, selfishness, and pride, in defiance of the will of God

Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of it lasted thirteen years (Eze_29:18; Isa_23:1-18).
JFB

 

[he-man]

Dear wezcountry. I always felt there is something wrong with it, and I believe what Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible says: The Origin Of Satan Is Unknown." God is Love and would never be part of creating Satan, and we know that God is also Omniscient, God would have seen what Satan has in mind. I say this with love, wezcountry. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

The problem is that people do not understand God and His purpose. God controls evil with His own methods. When the Egyptians would not let His people go, God's angels smote the first-born of the Egyptians. Exo 12:29 ..the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

You can also see that God's angels destroyed Sodom

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
and likewise caused the flood that destroyed all but Noah and those with him..

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary,"

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The problem is that people do not understand God and His purpose.

Bullseye! God's 'purpose' is not God's 'method' for fulfilling it. This confuses people, even Christians. The purpose of God's manipulation of his creation is the restoration of the spiritual kingdom, which was damaged in the rebellion, not the preservation of the physical earth. The earth is a battleground, a place of death and destruction (beautiful though it is), and God has caused it to be so. His ultimate purpose is peace, but will arrive at it through war. All prophecies, and man's history, reveal war as the means to peace. Only when the enemies of peace are destroyed can there be peace.

 

[Gracchus]

Bullseye! God's 'purpose' is not God's 'method' for fulfilling it. This confuses people, even Christians. The purpose of God's manipulation of his creation is the restoration of the spiritual kingdom, which was damaged in the rebellion, not the preservation of the physical earth. The earth is a battleground, a place of death and destruction (beautiful though it is), and God has caused it to be so. His ultimate purpose is peace, but will arrive at it through war. All prophecies, and man's history, reveal war as the means to peace. Only when the enemies of peace are destroyed can there be peace.

So God, like the Romans will create a desert and call it peace?

 

[Asvin]

Bullseye! God's 'purpose' is not God's 'method' for fulfilling it. This confuses people, even Christians. The purpose of God's manipulation of his creation is the restoration of the spiritual kingdom, which was damaged in the rebellion, not the preservation of the physical earth. The earth is a battleground, a place of death and destruction (beautiful though it is), and God has caused it to be so. His ultimate purpose is peace, but will arrive at it through war. All prophecies, and man's history, reveal war as the means to peace. Only when the enemies of peace are destroyed can there be peace.

Well then why the war? Why not just get straight to the "peace" part?

God damning the whole human race just because Adam and Eve were stupid enough to eat a forbidden fruit is unfair to start with.. the countless amount of other stuff in the bible just yells out that god is unfair (if god exists at all)

If God is all powerful, why not have created everything perfect so that he can still get the respect from us humans while enjoying peace and happiness?

 

[he-man]

So God, like the Romans will create a desert and call it peace?

Huh?
Isa 41:18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of wormwood a plain or valley near Jordan, upon the borders of Moab, at the farther end of Canaan that way, Num_33:49

 

[texastig]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Didn't he lead the music or worship? If this is so, he would have known the full power and majesty of God. Surely therefore he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

He was given free choice, like we are and he choose poorly.
That's why he couldn't be redeemed because he saw the full power and majesty of God.