The Lucifer Story is Impossible

[OldWiseGuy]

Well then why the war? Why not just get straight to the "peace" part?

God damning the whole human race just because Adam and Eve were stupid enough to eat a forbidden fruit is unfair to start with.. the countless amount of other stuff in the bible just yells out that god is unfair (if god exists at all)

If God is all powerful, why not have created everything perfect so that he can still get the respect from us humans while enjoying peace and happiness?

There's more going on down here than our 'human radar' can detect. It's revealed in scripture, but you have to read it, and believe it, even though you don't fully understand it. God says that most of mankind was made to be destroyed (not live forever in torment). Only those He chooses will live. It's His game, and His choice. I'm thankful for the life I have been given, whether or not I make it into the kingdom.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Eze 26:2 Aha! — exultation over a fallen rival (Psa_35:21, Psa_35:25).
she ... that was the gates — that is, the single gate composed of two folding doors. Hence the verb is singular. “Gates” were the place of resort for traffic and public business: so here it expresses a mart of commerce frequented by merchants.

Tyre regards Jerusalem not as an open enemy, for her territory being the narrow, long strip of land north of Philistia, between Mount Lebanon and the sea, her interest was to cultivate friendly relations with the Jews, on whom she was dependent for corn (Eze_27:17; 1Ki_5:9; Act_12:20).

But Jerusalem had intercepted some of the inland traffic which she wished to monopolize to herself; so, in her intensely selfish worldly-mindedness, she exulted heartlessly over the fall of Jerusalem as her own gain. Hence she incurred the wrath of God as pre-eminently the world’s representative in its ambition, selfishness, and pride, in defiance of the will of God

Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of it lasted thirteen years (Eze_29:18; Isa_23:1-18).
JFB

The accuracy of the prophecies concerning the fall of Tyre are well known. The 'inset' verses describing a spirit being cannot be ignored and are clearly posing the Prince/King of Tyre as a human 'type' of an angelic being, both of whom fell from grace, and against whom God's anger is ultimately directed; Ezekiel 28:12 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty........ 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created....... 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire....... 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee..... 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.'

 

[dawiyd]

Uh, so when roughly did "Satan"/ Lucifer fall from heaven, before or after the mishaps in Eden?

Edit: Sorry mods, have not been on in a while, noticed the change of forums, thought this was akin to the old non-christian forum, just read the forum rules. Could you either please delete posts in this thread/make a new one, or possibly bend the rules in this instance as even tho I don't believe in the fall of Satan (it isn't part of Jewish theology), I'm genuinely interested in the Christian view. Either, and or is good.

 

[he-man]

The accuracy of the prophecies concerning the fall of Tyre are well known. . 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.'

Who — answered in Isa 23:9, “The Lord of hosts.”
Isa 23:8 Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth?
Isa 23:9 The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.

11 He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant city, to destroy the strong holds thereof.

17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

 

[Asvin]

There's more going on down here than our 'human radar' can detect. It's revealed in scripture, but you have to read it, and believe it, even though you don't fully understand it. God says that most of mankind was made to be destroyed (not live forever in torment). Only those He chooses will live. It's His game, and His choice. I'm thankful for the life I have been given, whether or not I make it into the kingdom.

Reading something and believing it blindly without any evidence isn't such a logical thing to do.. first.. we have to know for sure that the bible is the "word of god" and not some tool that people created to drive fear into the hearts of others or to have an answer for the unknowns.. only then, logically, can we believe anything that the bible says.. no one has answered one of the main questions i've had all this time.. why the bible? why not the quran?

 

[razeontherock]

God damning the whole human race just because Adam and Eve were stupid enough to eat a forbidden fruit is unfair to start with..

Yeah, except G-d didn't do that.

the countless amount of other stuff in the bible just yells out that god is unfair (if god exists at all)

Perhaps you've misunderstood "countless amounts of other stuff" too? Perhaps that has everything to do with what you were taught?

If God is all powerful, why not have created everything perfect so that he can still get the respect from us humans while enjoying peace and happiness?

Um, that's what He did. Genesis 1 and 2 make that quite plain!

 

[razeontherock]

Uh, so when roughly did "Satan"/ Lucifer fall from heaven, before or after the mishaps in Eden?

MUST HAVE been before, since he was already there in fallen form. This does not actually equate to the fall being in the 5th creative day, but it is an idea ...

 

[dawiyd]

MUST HAVE been before, since he was already there in fallen form. This does not actually equate to the fall being in the 5th creative day, but it is an idea ...

This is what I don't get tho, then what on earth is Satan doing chilling in heaven in the book of Job (this is after the events of eden too)?

Edit: Sorry mods, have not been on in a while, noticed the change of forums, thought this was akin to the old non-christian forum, just read the forum rules. Could you either please delete posts in this thread/make a new one, or possibly bend the rules in this instance as even tho I don't believe in the fall of Satan (it isn't part of Jewish theology), I'm genuinely interested in the Christian view. Either, and or is good.

 

[razeontherock]

No problemo with me dawiyd A way I just saw this verbalized is that from the fall to Christ satan had access to the throne, which is not quite the same as "chilling in heaven." With Christ (either His death or when He sent the 70, or sometime a couple millenia ago) satan was cast down. This is the way I've always seen Scripture portray it.

 

[oneofchrists]

Asvin! Our God cannot tollerate or abide sin...........He will forgive it though......if a heart's intent is pure and repentant.....if a heart is yerning and wanting a personal relationship with it's creator and is searching intently.........Our God will in no way leave a heart dispondent and down for He will never leave or forsake those who cry out and understand their sinful state as being creatures that are bent toward sin and understand that only He the father of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will save us that is through His son's Blood that was shed for the lost of this world and whosever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved...........all Glory and Honor is Your's Our Lord God maker of all that is and in the name of Your Precious son our Lord Jesus Christ Bless this man Asvin and all who contribute to this Thread.......Amen.......Dave

 

[he-man]

He was given free choice, like we are and he choose poorly.
That's why he couldn't be redeemed because he saw the full power and majesty of God.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
Christian teaching about the Devil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1.

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament.—Smith's Bible Dictionary
If it is to be found at ALL.