N
Nanopants
Guest
I still don't know what that means. Do you mean like, legally or something like that?
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
The Lords Work
- Thread starter Going Merry
- Start date
N
Nanopants
Guest
Here's how I understand the concept of atonement, with a mix of spiritual reality aside from the legal fictions.
The message of the prophets has been to circumcise our hearts for millennia, even before Christ. Circumcision is itself a fairly bloody symbol, being a painful procedure that's associated with a very sensitive member of the male anatomy. As that applies to the heart, it would seem to imply a brokenness or a broken heart, which seems to be supported by Ps 34:18.
As I'm sure just about anyone can relate to, our hearts can be broken by external means, which is not fun at all and if we happen to know that it's from God, then we would probably perceive it to be punishment or chastisement. However, with Christ, we have the opportunity to draw near to God without that chastisement. This is because our hearts can be empathetically broken on His behalf (Acts 2:37).
But there's more to this than brokenness. Christ is described to be a veil of sorts in Heb 10:20 which corresponds to the veil in the temple which was torn at His crucifixion (Mat 27:51). Paul also describes a veil that exists on our own hearts which is taken away as we turn to the Lord (2 Cr 3:14-16). So for each believer, there are two veils: one is Christ and the other may be on our hearts, and interestingly enough, this also corresponds to the design of the temple which apparently had two veils: one inner veil and one outer veil.
So the picture this paints for me at least is that through faith in Christ from the heart, we have access to the real holy place where the glory of God resides and where we can find a transformation to His image (2 Cr 3:18), and in Him there is no sin. We don't have to be punished to be washed of our sin by His own righteousness, so it is true that He is a propitiation for our sins.
The message of the prophets has been to circumcise our hearts for millennia, even before Christ. Circumcision is itself a fairly bloody symbol, being a painful procedure that's associated with a very sensitive member of the male anatomy. As that applies to the heart, it would seem to imply a brokenness or a broken heart, which seems to be supported by Ps 34:18.
As I'm sure just about anyone can relate to, our hearts can be broken by external means, which is not fun at all and if we happen to know that it's from God, then we would probably perceive it to be punishment or chastisement. However, with Christ, we have the opportunity to draw near to God without that chastisement. This is because our hearts can be empathetically broken on His behalf (Acts 2:37).
But there's more to this than brokenness. Christ is described to be a veil of sorts in Heb 10:20 which corresponds to the veil in the temple which was torn at His crucifixion (Mat 27:51). Paul also describes a veil that exists on our own hearts which is taken away as we turn to the Lord (2 Cr 3:14-16). So for each believer, there are two veils: one is Christ and the other may be on our hearts, and interestingly enough, this also corresponds to the design of the temple which apparently had two veils: one inner veil and one outer veil.
So the picture this paints for me at least is that through faith in Christ from the heart, we have access to the real holy place where the glory of God resides and where we can find a transformation to His image (2 Cr 3:18), and in Him there is no sin. We don't have to be punished to be washed of our sin by His own righteousness, so it is true that He is a propitiation for our sins.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
redblue22
You Are Special.
- Jan 13, 2012
- 10,733
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Methodist
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Nano,
Let's see if I got this. It is a fight of good versus evil--between God and demons and our own evil hearts. And good versus evil--between all people interacting and affecting hearts. We trust God Jesus to make it so we don't have to take punishment for our evil. And we trust Jesus to access God who changes our invisible self we are. That is where our own battle takes place and we find power. We then live that out in life and between people. The goal then is to change all that exists to good--especially hearts that are working for evil to become good, and for helping those people whose hearts are already working for good.
Am I on track?
.
Let's see if I got this. It is a fight of good versus evil--between God and demons and our own evil hearts. And good versus evil--between all people interacting and affecting hearts. We trust God Jesus to make it so we don't have to take punishment for our evil. And we trust Jesus to access God who changes our invisible self we are. That is where our own battle takes place and we find power. We then live that out in life and between people. The goal then is to change all that exists to good--especially hearts that are working for evil to become good, and for helping those people whose hearts are already working for good.
Am I on track?
.
Upvote
0
I believe Jesus' work covers all people, though not to the same eternally saving extent:
1 Timothy 4:10
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
Whether or not Jesus' work applies to an individual in an eternally saving way (this is sometimes called "effectual grace" in comparison to "common grace" by theologians) ultimately comes down to God's choice rather than man's, because prior to being born-again a person does not respond as only a Christian does to the gospel:"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
1 Corinthians 1:18
"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
That's why salvation is by the grace of God and up to his predestination and election (ie., choice) rather than our belief. We are justified by faith, but a person who is "perishing" (ie., not born-again) will not respond to the gospel in faith. So God has to step in in spite of ourselves."For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
Some people have real issue with this, hence the question addressed in Romans 9:19...
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
The answer is in that chapter.You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jul 5, 2005
- 46,784
- 19,968
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
I don't believe all the sin of the world just suddenly disappeared when Christ said, "It is finished" because we still sin to this day. You feel bad when you sin. Repentance is a very important part of the process, looking inward and doing our best to refrain from certain things. Sin still has consequences. When Christ paid for our sins, He took the punishment away from us. The veil was torn and we can be reconciled back to God, but the sin did not go away, just the punishment for our sins. The only difference between us and the atheist or the unsaved is the fact that we accepted Christ's punishment for our sins and we are covered by the blood.
But we're still capable of sin. So if we're still capable of sin and we sin every single day, then it doesn't make sense that sin just disappeared from the world. Those who did not accept the sacrifice are still living under the burden of their sin and if they die before accepting the sacrifice made for them, then they will pay for their own sins.
But we're still capable of sin. So if we're still capable of sin and we sin every single day, then it doesn't make sense that sin just disappeared from the world. Those who did not accept the sacrifice are still living under the burden of their sin and if they die before accepting the sacrifice made for them, then they will pay for their own sins.
Upvote
0
SnowyMacie
Well-Known Member
- Apr 12, 2011
- 17,008
- 6,087
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
Upvote
0
P
Paulie079
Guest
"The Lords Work" is a bit ambiguous, but the work of Jesus Christ on the cross effectually covers the sins of those who surrender their life to him, or the elect. (How an individual comes to that point of conversion is up for debate. For myself as a Calvinist, I would say a person reaches that point through the Holy Spirit regenerating their heart, allowing that individual to choose Christ.) If you simply state that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, you're asserting universalism. You could, however, state that Jesus died for the sins of those who chose him of their own free will, or that the gift of salvation is open to everyone. But his death did not cover the sins of everyone effectually.
Upvote
0
^ well i do believe universally everyones sin has been blotted out through the work of the lord christ. though repentance and belief in his work is another thing.
I think of it like everyone has the key to salvation, just not everyone realizes what jesus has done for them so it is never used for some
I think of it like everyone has the key to salvation, just not everyone realizes what jesus has done for them so it is never used for some
Upvote
0
@ saucy i dont see how me sinning negates what christ did. we arent in the era of animal sacrificing where we would need to sacrifice an animal every time we sinned. if that were the case, i'd agree with you. but i believe christ is a much better sacrifice than an animal sacrifice. christ came once for the world, so i believe a sacrifice is the end of a sin then. 1 john 2:2 states he is the propitation for the worlds sin an the saints sin. so although we have many sinners in todays time, jesus christ has died for everyone never the less. so, i dont believe there is sin in the world. For me its not possible for me to believe christ left any sin in the world.
Upvote
0
You guys are talking about two different issues.
We can still sin, but the eternal punishement penalty for sin has been paid.
No sin you can commit after becoming a believer, will cause you to go to hell. That penalty has been paid. But that doesn't mean we can't sin anymore. And there are consequences for sinning even though the ultimate price has been paid. There's seperation in your relationship with God now, there's the consequences such as being thrown in jail, etc, etc.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about sin anymore, just because it's okay we're still going to heaven. For that would imply, that you really don't understand what Christ did on the cross, that would you want to continue in sin.
We can still sin, but the eternal punishement penalty for sin has been paid.
No sin you can commit after becoming a believer, will cause you to go to hell. That penalty has been paid. But that doesn't mean we can't sin anymore. And there are consequences for sinning even though the ultimate price has been paid. There's seperation in your relationship with God now, there's the consequences such as being thrown in jail, etc, etc.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about sin anymore, just because it's okay we're still going to heaven. For that would imply, that you really don't understand what Christ did on the cross, that would you want to continue in sin.
Upvote
0
Balugon
o( ' . ' )o
- Jul 18, 2005
- 6,109
- 949
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Single
Typical Christian doctrine would dictate that while Jesus died to cover all the sins, you won't be getting into Heaven if you reject God, because why would God want you in Heaven if you don't want to be there, or if you don't give a rat's behind about doing things God's way? I doubt God wants people making Heaven just as hellish as Earth is now.
Upvote
0
SnowyMacie
Well-Known Member
- Apr 12, 2011
- 17,008
- 6,087
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Anglican
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
Upvote
0
Similar threads
