The Lords Day and the Sabbath

Ari'el said:

By the way biblical days, start at Sunset not 12pm.

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Did I say otherwise?

And the month starts with the New Moon.

Inescapable Reality said:

>>> What does Paul mean by this though? Does it mean we are no longer to have different races with racial distinctions and separations? Manifestly no.

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It means that we do not judge according to the flesh. Israel is not supreme, Christ is. He is the vine, we are the branches

Ari'el said:

the Hebrew Roots Movement, has people so against the observance of Sunday, and has put blinders over the eyes of men.

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The reaction against Saturday started in the wake of the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad. Rome came down hard on the Jews and they were persecuted all over the empire. We still are living with the after effects of that persecution.

So standard Christianity (which was majority Gentile at that point) intentionally shed any resemblance to Judaism to avoid this persecution. They adopted Greek as their main language instead of Aramaic. they went to Sunday instead of Saturday. They stopped celebrating "Jewish" feasts. They started eating pork and shell fish.

Of course none of that applied to the Nazoreans who were still devout Jews as well as New Covenant believers - following the examples of James and Paul.

IMO the "Hebrew Roots" group is just reacting against something for their own reasons; not unlike the gentile church in 135.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Did I say otherwise?

And the month starts with the New Moon.

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I never said you did, that was for another person, also that can to be debated, because some go by the Enoch calendar, but for now I stick with the New Moon sigthing of the sliver.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Actually both days were kept into the 5th century.

Church historian Eusebius writing circa 300 ad said the Jewish believers known as the Sect of Nazoreans were heretics because they looked and acted like Jews; similar to modern day Messianic Judaism. Even though he admitted their doctrine was orthodox, he made sure they were NOT invited to the church council of Nicea in 325 ad.

Eusebius "Heresy of the Ebionites"

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>>> What's your point?

W2L said:

It means that we do not judge according to the flesh. Israel is not supreme, Christ is. He is the vine, we are the branches

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>>> Israel does maintain a type of supremacy which I proved and you have not refuted.

Christ is supreme all other humans, yes.

Judge just means to decided. God has decided many things based on the flesh. You need to understand what judge means according to context. We are not to judicially wrongly judge people according to the flesh, like show partiality to a murderer depending on his race, like let a Jew off of the hook for murder of a Gentile because he is a Jew, for an example.

You can call what you are affirming what you want, but I rightly call it Marxism and against the Bible.

Inescapable Reality said:

What's your point?

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Historical understanding of where the Saturday / Sunday difference came from.

The Assemblies of God teach on their website: Concerns: Many Christians today attempt to fulfil the Sabbath solely as a day of rest,believing that any activities which interrupt routine personal work duties (and especially those that provide a sense of personal pleasure) constitute God's intended rest. Advocates of this "pleasurable rest" theory believe they can best observe the Sabbath through pleasurable activities(eg.an enjoyable shop at the mall,a prolonged morning sleep or time on the golf course) but this attitude fails to recognise the latter portion of the admonition,"Remember the Sabbath Day by keeping it holy" (Ex.20:8) No Church can dictate personal holiness,nor should it create a set of legalistic restrictions for observing the Sabbath. However it is right for the church to call believers back to a holy reverence for this special day. In doing so we must face the question of what is appropriate for the Sabbath. This should not be determined on the basis of what is wrong,but rather on what is right for the Sabbath? It is right to sacrifice time for God. It is right for the Sabbath to give undistracted focus to our Heavenly Father. It is right to allow opportunities for thanksgiving and worship. It is right to use the Sabbath for study and personal discovery of God's love and His ways. It is right to use the Sabbath for self examination,confessing sins and seeking repentance with the God who fills the spiritual void of our souls. Healing fellowship in a local church with others of like belief,is especially right for the Sabbath,but many Christians are guilty of omitting the essential rest of the Sabbath. They have wrongly thought that mere attendance in one's Church fulfills the Sabbath. Unfortunately some of mythese faithful who attend the weekly service do so without offering their hearts to the LORD. Sadly they go through the motions without encountering the presence of the LORD,thus missing the Sabbath rest. As Christians we must never seek a minimum standard for observing the Sabbath. Instead we should approach God in thanksgiving for our salvation and for all He has done for us. When our heart is right and we are full of the Holy Spirit we can then be assured we have properly kept the Sabbath and found God's provision of Holy rest. The above statement is based upon our common understanding of Scriptural teaching. The official position is found in the statement of fundamental truths' (Assemblies of God USA website)

DaveW-Ohev, What comes after the 7000th year; which is the 1000 year reign with Yeshua?

Inescapable Reality said:

>>> Israel does maintain a type of supremacy which I proved and you have not refuted.

Christ is supreme all other humans, yes.

Judge just means to decided. God has decided many things based on the flesh. You need to understand what judge means according to context. We are not to judicially wrongly judge people according to the flesh, like show partiality to a murderer depending on his race, like let a Jew off of the hook for murder of a Gentile because he is a Jew, for an example.

You can call what you are affirming what you want, but I rightly call it Marxism and against the Bible.

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Ok, the first shall be last. Call no man Rabbi.

W2L said:

Israel is not supreme, Christ is. He is the vine, we are the branches

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Go re-read Romans. Third chapter and 11th chapter. If you do so WITHOUT your cultural blinders you may walk away with a different perspective.

First off, from chapter 11 (speaking specifically of Jews - including the "enemies of the gospel")

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

IOW, God cannot/will not revoke physical Israel's being "chosen."

And keeping that fact in mind, let us go to chapter 3:

1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

And since that is "irrevocable," they STILL ARE.

Israel/the Jews are the tree trunk and we gentile believers are grafted into that stock. (back to chapter 11)

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

W2L said:

Ok, the first shall be last. Call no man Rabbi.

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>>> Not calling people 'Rabbi' is off topic. I don't get what your point is. I've made it clear that salvation in Christ is not race dependant.

Ari'el said:

DaveW-Ohev, What comes after the 7000th year; which is the 1000 year reign with Yeshua?

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Eternal Judgement.

That has little to do with the current discussion of Saturday and Sunday. We have a choice in this timetable but no choice in the timing of the Millennium or what comes after.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Eternal Judgement.

That has little to do with the current discussion of Saturday and Sunday. We have a choice in this timetable but no choice in the timing of the Millennium or what comes after.

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Yeshua rose on the 1st/8th day and it says of those who are in Messiah- 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

on the 8000th yr- Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

In Yeshua all things become NEW!

What comes after the 7000th year; which is the 1000 year reign with Yeshua?

Ill answer that, the 8000th year, The New Beginning, the New heaven & earth.

The Apostolic tradition which the Church maintained to observe for a long time was to observe both the 7th and 1st/8th Days of the Week:

5th Century
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19.

The World
"For although almost all churches throughout The World celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Allexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called "the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Socrates, "Ecclestical History," Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

Constantinople
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Sozomen, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap. 19.

If observing the 1st Day of the Week was from paganism and a Gentile invented practice, it is unlikely the Ebionites, heretical Jewish Christians would have practiced it, along with the Sabbath. The reason is that they were super hateful of Paul and considered him a false Apostle and one who hijacked the faith and created his own brand of Gentile non-Hebraic Christianity. If it was so clear that the practice was of pagan origin and/or invented by later Gentile Christians, it is highly unlikely that they wouldn't have noticed it and rejected it consequently.

Inescapable Reality said:

If observing the 1st Day of the Week was from paganism and a Gentile invented practice, it is unlikely the Ebionites, heretical Jewish Christians would have practiced it, along with the Sabbath. The reason is that they were super hateful of Paul and considered him a false Apostle and one who hijacked the faith and created his own brand of Gentile non-Hebraic Christianity. If it was so clear that the practice was of pagan origin and/or invented by later Gentile Christians, it is highly unlikely that they wouldn't have noticed it and rejected it consequently.

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Don't make the same mistake Eusebius made by conflating the Nazoreans with the Ebionites. It was the Ebionites that hated Paul and his writings. They saw him as abandoning Moses, as he had been accused of in Acts 21. They also did not believe Yeshua / Jesus was divine. (true heretics)

DaveW-Ohev said:

Don't make the same mistake Eusebius made by conflating the Nazoreans with the Ebionites. It was the Ebionites that hated Paul and his writings. They saw him as abandoning Moses, as he had been accused of in Acts 21. They also did not believe Yeshua / Jesus was divine. (true heretics)

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>>> Yeah, thanks, but I was already aware of this. I think my my argument is still strong but the Ebionites were heretics and Nazarenes is the true Christian Faith.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Israel/the Jews are the tree trunk and we gentile believers are grafted into that stock. (back to chapter 11)

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The Jews are branches, not the tree. It says so in the scripture you posted.

Inescapable Reality said:

>>> Not calling people 'Rabbi' is off topic. I don't get what your point is. I've made it

.

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The first shall be the last