The Logical Premise?

[Obliquinaut]

When somebody talks about contradictions in the Bible, I usually take them to mean logical contradictions, not, "I really don't like it that the God of the Bible is capable of both love and wrath. If he could have got by without the latter, then perhaps I could have been a Christian without being a Marcionite."

I really apologize for putting any thought into my posts responding to you. Apparently it was wasted effort.

 

[AV1611VET]

Next time you pray to Jehovah make sure to tell him that.

He knows it already.

He created America to be a haven for the Jews during their diaspora, and to assist them afterward.

In fact, the first ten amendments to our Constitution insure no pogrom will occur legally on U.S. soil.

 

[Obliquinaut]

He knows it already.

He created America to be a haven for the Jews during their diaspora, and to assist them afterward.

In fact, the first ten amendments to our Constitution insure no pogrom will occur legally on U.S. soil.

Boy you sure do mouth the words "Lord, Lord" a lot. Hope it works out for you. In the meantime, while you are busy bearing false witness against other people, there are those of us who know you by the fruit you bear.

 

[Obliquinaut]

He knows it already.

He created America to be a haven for the Jews during their diaspora, and to assist them afterward.

In fact, the first ten amendments to our Constitution insure no pogrom will occur legally on U.S. soil.

You know, AV. I'm going to apologize for hinting that you might be more in service to the devil in my earlier post.

NOT because I like you. But because I like me. I feel I grew as dark after being goaded on by you as you must feel a lot of the time.

I don't want to live with that darkness. So I apologize.

I'm better than that. And I'm better than you.

Trust me when I say you are among the least respect-worthy humans I've met online. You seem to spread darkness around more easily than you might think. You are busy trying to see the evil in others like the scientists you excoriate non-stop. You bear false witness against people with ease.

And you insulted me severely. I no longer expect apologies on CF. One of your other Christian buddies a few months ago posted something that sounded a lot like a suggestion that I should die. Another of your Christian friends then decided to attack me for getting upset by it. Neither could be called up on to apologize for these things. Perhaps one was a misunderstanding but the offender failed to even accept that one could read it as grievous suggestion.

I see so much darkness in some who share your faith. I fail to see much in the way of "humanity".

I don't feel I'm necessarily a "good" person, I strive to not spread as much darkness as you seem at ease with. At times when others of your "faith" have indicated I was attempting to attack their faith to make them lose it I apologized and disengaged.

I don't want to take your faith away from you. But you and many of your benighted bretheren seem to enjoy the darkness too much. I seldom if ever hear apologies from many of you. I think I might have heard one from you earlier when you overstepped a line.

You bury yourself in your bible and you ignore the real beauty that can be found there so you can focus on whatever jot or tittle you come across with your magnifying glass. The law means less to you than the jots and tittles.

Perhaps you do not serve the needs of evil. Perhaps you do honestly believe this is your witness for Christ. And for all my Christian friends IRL whom I respect and admire, when I meet people like you I see there is nothing inherent in this "faith" that brings those qualities to the fore. Some take the same faith and turn it into something darker, somehow.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm better than that. And I'm better than you.

You call God a murderer with aplomb, and every attempt to show otherwise fails; including Adam Clarke's excellent commentary.

Then someone shows that atheism is anti-Semitic, and you snort fire like your avatar.

You're just like any other atheist I've seen: you can't take what you dish out.

I've seen God called everything but what He is (love), and then gotten reported ... and suspended ... for insinuating someone led an alternate lifestyle.

In a way, the mods are on your side; so you can thank them for being so lenient.

 

[lesliedellow]

For how long is this slinging match going to continue?

 

[Obliquinaut]

You call God a murderer with aplomb, and every attempt to show otherwise fails; including Adam Clarke's excellent commentary.

Did I really call God a murderer? Didn't I say explicitly that God can kill whomever he wants indeed I believe I even noted that God can hold guilty the offspring of those who were guilty, but God put the rules out that humans should not be murderers then He commands them to murder. But I should be mindful that I am hurting you. My apologies.

I've seen God called everything but what He is (love),

What would you know of "love" or God? You call me an anti-semite, you bear false witness against people. What is your position here?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Trust me when I say you are among the least respect-worthy humans I've met online.

The 'ignore' button is right over there. I say this with no flippancy at all.

I am one of those free speech absolutists we hear so much about these days. Generally speaking, I never report anyone, never block anyone. But AV's character has taken a bit of a turn, and I have not regretted missing out on his contributions.

 

[Obliquinaut]

For how long is this slinging match going to continue?

Not long. I will have to take a break from this.

I grow tired of discussing these things here. Ultimately the lack of actual intellectual capacity results in either cries of "I'm just going to ignore that stuff because it is my faith!" or "You are an anti-semite and you are attacking my God!"

AV feels there is no difference between my questioning God for some of the most terrible stuff in the OT and calling me, personally, an anti-semite.

Clearly I insulted him. And for that I'm sorry. Not because I care about AV or even like him. But because I overstepped a line I wouldn't necessarily want overstepped.

But I wouldn't expect people of faith to understand that concept at all.

 

[lesliedellow]

I grow tired of discussing these things here. Ultimately the lack of actual intellectual capacity results in either cries of "I'm just going to ignore that stuff because it is my faith!" or "You are an anti-semite and you are attacking my God!

I do not ignore it, and, as I said, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Nevertheless, it is there, and it is up to me to decide what to make of it. Ditching the parts of the Bible I don't like, and only hanging on to the bits I do like, would merely get me an idol made in my own image.

How I read passages such as the one you brought up, is not something I am about to share on here, because it involves a devotional reading of scripture, and that is not something you are likely to appreciate.

 

[Obliquinaut]

I do not ignore it, and, as I said, it makes me feel uncomfortable.

You do ignore it, pretty much by definition. However, I understand that it does make you feel uncomfortable. Which is perfectly understandable. That is why some people are unable to have a philosophical discussion of God.

Nevertheless, it is there, and it is up to me to decide what to make of it. Ditching the parts of the Bible I don't like, and only hanging on to the bits I do like, would merely get me an idol made in my own image.

And I contend you have done that: you have ditched the parts of the bible that are inconvenient with the "I cannot stand in judgement of God" while simultaneously telling me you have an image of God based on what is in the Bible.

How I read passages such as the one you brought up, is not something I am about to share on here, because it involves a devotional reading of scripture, and that is not something you are likely to appreciate.

Interesting. Because in our discussion I have granted the existence of God in order to debate the logical implications of it. Yet you tell me I can't appreciate your "devotional reading".

What you are saying now is I have to believe as you do in order to say anything critical of your image of God. That is, of course, irrational.

If your God does not have the ability to be shown logical or rational or even real to those who do not believe, what good is that concept?

I don't say that to be insulting: I say it because TRUTH SHOULD NEVER REQUIRE SIMPLY ACCEPTING SOMETHING WITHOUT ANY ABILITY TO SUPPORT IT.

For me, that is the value of truth. Truth isn't passed on to me simply by fiat from some other person. It carries with it an external reality.

 

[lesliedellow]

And I contend you have done that: you have ditched the parts of the bible that are inconvenient with the "I cannot stand in judgement of God" while simultaneously telling me you have an image of God based on what is in the Bible.

Image of God? Does the Bible read like a philosophical tract to you? That is because it isn't one. In fact it is not even a book of systematic theology. It is something which has to seep into the pores of your skin over a long period of time - assuming, of course, that you have an interest in allowing it to do so. I know this is going to cut no ice with you, but it is more like getting to know a person than anything else.

Interesting. Because in our discussion I have granted the existence of God in order to debate the logical implications of it. Yet you tell me I can't appreciate your "devotional reading".

What you are saying now is I have to believe as you do in order to say anything critical of your image of God. That is, of course, irrational.

What I am saying is that religion is more than just an exercise in pure logic, and that alone is probably enough to condemn it in your eyes.

 

[Resha Caner]

But are they moral due to the fact God says they are moral? ... Or does God say they are moral because the things he describes contain some inherent moral-ness?

I go with Bonhoeffer on this one. It's a meaningless question. God does what he does, and we, as finite beings, can never discern some absolute judgement of good and evil. We either do God's will or we don't. We may talk about good and evil among we finite humans, but that's more a curse than anything else.

 

[Resha Caner]

... it is more like getting to know a person than anything else.

I've made this statement on CF myself many times. I'm perplexed as to why it is so difficult to grasp.

What I am saying is that religion is more than just an exercise in pure logic, and that alone is probably enough to condemn it in your eyes.

I also agree with this. So, maybe this is not the time or place to ask this question. I also hope you take it within the spirit in which it is asked. Though we may disagree, I don't ask this as a means to debate or criticize your position. It is purely a question of curiosity.

In an abstract way, I can accept that, since God knows more than I, some things don't make sense to me. Still, when they don't make sense, I continue to wrestle with them. So, with respect to your position here regarding the problem of evil, is it:
* Something that makes sense to you
* Something that doesn't make sense, but you're OK with that and don't think about it
* Something that you still wrestle with from time to time

 

[lesliedellow]

So, with respect to your position here regarding the problem of evil, is it:
* Something that makes sense to you
* Something that doesn't make sense, but you're OK with that and don't think about it
* Something that you still wrestle with from time to time

It seems to me that the problem of evil is only a problem if you presuppose that God's number one priority is to ensure his creatures lead lives as pain free as possible. If, however, he has other priorities, and they necessitate some suffering on the part of his creatures, then there is at least no logical problem.

Of course, that is easy ffor a comfortable westerner to say. If you are living on the poverty line in Africa, it might be less easy to accept. (And yet, paradoxically, it is precisely in the less affluent parts of the world that Christianity is growing.)

 

[Resha Caner]

It seems to me that the problem of evil is only a problem if you presuppose that God's number one priority is to ensure his creatures lead lives as pain free as possible. If, however, he has other priorities, and they necessitate some suffering on the part of his creatures, then there is at least no logical problem.

Of course, that is easy ffor a comfortable westerner to say. If you are living on the poverty line in Africa, it might be less easy to accept. (And yet, paradoxically, it is precisely in the less affluent parts of the world that Christianity is growing.)

I don't disagree that God's will may sometimes necessitate suffering. It often seems to me that people presuppose death as the ultimate evil, but I don't agree with that. There is also a matter of scale. Having experienced pain levels of X, I'm quite capable of experiencing pain levels of 0.1X and thinking it's nothing. Whereas, if the maximum pain I had ever endured was 0.1X, it would seem to me a horrible, unendurable thing. So, no matter how much a benevolent being might reduce the pain, there will always be someone who complains.

But that doesn't answer the whole issue for me. Nor am I sure if this answers the question I asked you. But, at this point, I would assume you're choosing the first: it makes sense to you.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know this is going to cut no ice with you, but it is more like getting to know a person than anything else.

He has this single fixation about murder that is keeping him from understanding.

 

[lesliedellow]

But that doesn't answer the whole issue for me. Nor am I sure if this answers the question I asked you. But, at this point, I would assume you're choosing the first: it makes sense to you.

I suppose the answer is number 1 in principle, but that could easily become number 3 in practice.

 

[Resha Caner]

I suppose the answer is number 1 in principle, but that could easily become number 3 in practice.

Thanks. I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Image of God? Does the Bible read like a philosophical tract to you? That is because it isn't one. In fact it is not even a book of systematic theology.

Yet it is our only instruction manual on what God is.

It is something which has to seep into the pores of your skin over a long period of time - assuming, of course, that you have an interest in allowing it to do so.

In order to receive the truth of the Bible you have to start by accepting the truth of the Bible before reading it.

I know this is going to cut no ice with you, but it is more like getting to know a person than anything else.

I like that example. It is very apropos.

I tried to get to know the "person" of God. Decades and decades. I "phoned" and wrote letters and rang the doorbell. Sadly no one seemed to be home.

What I am saying is that religion is more than just an exercise in pure logic, and that alone is probably enough to condemn it in your eyes.

Faith without reason is empty for me, yes.