The Logic of the ACLU

[Jro]

Here are some more of the ACLU's efforts to turn prisons into a resort:

http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-right...ffer-medical-neglect-and-receive-worse-mental

"According to the complaint, the system dramatically fails women with both physical and mental diseases, as two well-publicized incidents demonstrate. In February 2000, a 29-year-old asthmatic prisoner collapsed and died in Taycheedah’s cafeteria after repeated requests for medical help. In June 2005, an 18-year-old suicidal prisoner hanged herself in her cell while supposedly “in observation” in the mental health unit at Taycheedah, which provides no in-patient care and serves only to isolate and punish the most vulnerable women."

"One of the plaintiffs, Debbie Ann Ramos, was not seen by a gynecologist for seven years after arriving at Taycheedah, despite a diagnosis of chronic endometriosis and progressively worsening vaginal bleeding. Ramos ultimately needed a hysterectomy that might have been avoided by timely care.

Another prisoner, Tammy Young, developed painful, bleeding sores on her scalp in November 2003. Despite her repeated requests for treatment for more than 18 months, the medical staff at Taycheedah failed to test Young for MRSA, a highly contagious form of staph infection that plagues prisons and other institutions. Today, scores of women at Taycheedah are infected with MRSA."

And some more fun stories:

Keeping 'em in Stitches - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times

"Damon Dreckmeier's blood was coming out both ends of him, and it had been coming out for hours.

Vomited blood ran out of his mouth, down his chin and over his neck; it stained the seat of his pants. A nauseating, numbing feeling began in his stomach and gradually spread through his body. He had lost so much blood his fingers became useless and his eyes lost their focus."

"He was sent to jail because he had stolen a presigned check from a business and had cashed it for $4,800 using a faked driver's license. He pleaded guilty to faking the ID; the check charge was dropped when he promised to pay back the money. He had been sentenced to four years' probation and 111 days in jail."

"Because the county jail's medical staff was unable--or unwilling--to supply Dreckmeier his prescribed medication, which keeps Crohn's disease symptoms at bay, he was hospitalized four times during his brief incarceration."

JUICY SUITS: Open Bedsores in Oregon State Prison

"In a civil-rights lawsuit filed Tuesday at U.S. District Court in Portland, former inmate Travis Putnam claims he suffered festering bedsores that went ignored for nearly a year by prison doctors."

Here's a nice report on male prison rape:
No Escape: Male Rape in U.S. Prisons

Here's a report of guard on prisoner rape:
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(S(wdtmpfaty52gjezbzcul0sr1))/21225_displayArticle.aspx

Sounds like club med!

 

[The Paul]

I'm sure they disagree with me on that. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if there were some way in our current situation in the US to completely solve crime and rehabilitate these folks with a brief timeout and a nice heart-to-heart chat and explain that they're wrong and teach them how to be a better person....but, I realize that it's a pipe dream and is never going to happen. We live in a society that's been corrupted by greed and selfishness so we're always going to have people who will care about their own interest over the interest of society as a whole (IE: drug dealers, thugs, gangbangers, thieves, and killers). It's sad to think about, but I don't think that mentality is going away anytime soon.

No. You live in a society that's spent the last generation or so shoveling people into a prison system designed to create violent criminals.

The data we have would seem to indicate that a shift in emphasis from punishment to rehabilitation reduces the tendency to reoffend in America, just the same as anywhere else.

Sure, there's going to be a handful of deviants who can't be reformed, and I'm perfectly happy to say "throw away the key," in those instances. But even then, punishment serves no purpose.

 

[The Paul]

Further thoughts on this, somewhat provoked the by that liberal at twenty, conservative at forty signature:

In all honesty, what my "heart" tells me, regarding criminals, is to regard them as detritus. Lock them up until the jails are full, then start the executions.

That's the easy, emotional response.

It's by stopping and thinking through the consequences of that attitude, that I come to realize it is wrong. That's how more "liberal" ideas about rehabilitation and victims as criminals manifest.

My instinct really is to regard criminals as animals... but actually consider it in that light.

When an animal is sick we attempt to treat it. If it's sickness makes it dangerous, we keep it isolated during treatment. We may even kill it if we can not treat it. But not as a punishment. We do not punish an animal for being sick.

Bringing the analogy the other way, applying the attitudes of the American prison system to animal control, it would be like collecting a sick animal, torturing it for a while, then turning it loose again. All it does is make the animal more dangerous (and therefore more likely to spread its disease.)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Screw it. So far you've rejected 2 studies on the grounds that you disagree, you've rejected a list of court cases in which the ACLU defended christian religious freedom on the grounds that it was the ACLU listing them, and you've displayed a general ignorance about the workings of the US government.

Yep, I rejected those studies on the grounds that they used small samples that can't be considered as complete data (which they openly admit to in the study itself)

I didn't reject that they've helped Christians on certain occasions. I even posted on a couple of occasions in this thread "I don't doubt that they've helped Christians in certain cases". The ACLU itself insn't a unbiased resource when it comes to debating the ALCU. The same opinion has been expressed in biblical debates by many atheists/liberals (you might have even used it at some point as well as I) when Christians try to use the logic "the bible is true because the bible says so". A source cannot be validated by the source itself.

In what way have I displayed ignorance of how the US government works? Is this comment because your mad that I called you out on trying to throw out random amendment #'s to back up your point and I posted the actual text and proved that it doesn't? (Which I notice that you didn't address)

The US government was set up as a constitutional government, and I quoted the constitution and took it literally, I guess that makes me ignorant.

On the other hand, you've provided two links that provide questionable information and an anecdote about a lousy ACLU spokesperson, and no evidence that harsher prisons reduce recidivism. At this point, it seems that the reason you like harsh prisons is that you don't like criminals, and the reason you don't like the ACLU is just because you don't like the ACLU.

Ah yes, the two links which I said were slanted so I didn't want to post them, but then you said to post them because you'd be willing to consider them?...yeah, I posted those.

I didn't say I didn't like the criminals themselves, I feel that they should recieve a punishment that fits the crime.

and the reason you don't like the ACLU is just because you don't like the ACLU

No, the reason I don't like them is for the reasons I've already posted.

I don't think you're going to be swayed by reason or evidence. I'm out, think what you want.

I like how give your position the title of "reason" as if it's just so advanced and beyond questioning.

Oh well...thanks for stopping by

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Here are some more of the ACLU's efforts to turn prisons into a resort:

http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-right...ffer-medical-neglect-and-receive-worse-mental

"According to the complaint, the system dramatically fails women with both physical and mental diseases, as two well-publicized incidents demonstrate. In February 2000, a 29-year-old asthmatic prisoner collapsed and died in Taycheedah’s cafeteria after repeated requests for medical help. In June 2005, an 18-year-old suicidal prisoner hanged herself in her cell while supposedly “in observation” in the mental health unit at Taycheedah, which provides no in-patient care and serves only to isolate and punish the most vulnerable women."

"One of the plaintiffs, Debbie Ann Ramos, was not seen by a gynecologist for seven years after arriving at Taycheedah, despite a diagnosis of chronic endometriosis and progressively worsening vaginal bleeding. Ramos ultimately needed a hysterectomy that might have been avoided by timely care.

Another prisoner, Tammy Young, developed painful, bleeding sores on her scalp in November 2003. Despite her repeated requests for treatment for more than 18 months, the medical staff at Taycheedah failed to test Young for MRSA, a highly contagious form of staph infection that plagues prisons and other institutions. Today, scores of women at Taycheedah are infected with MRSA."

And some more fun stories:

Keeping 'em in Stitches - Page 1 - News - Phoenix - Phoenix New Times

"Damon Dreckmeier's blood was coming out both ends of him, and it had been coming out for hours.

Vomited blood ran out of his mouth, down his chin and over his neck; it stained the seat of his pants. A nauseating, numbing feeling began in his stomach and gradually spread through his body. He had lost so much blood his fingers became useless and his eyes lost their focus."

"He was sent to jail because he had stolen a presigned check from a business and had cashed it for $4,800 using a faked driver's license. He pleaded guilty to faking the ID; the check charge was dropped when he promised to pay back the money. He had been sentenced to four years' probation and 111 days in jail."

"Because the county jail's medical staff was unable--or unwilling--to supply Dreckmeier his prescribed medication, which keeps Crohn's disease symptoms at bay, he was hospitalized four times during his brief incarceration."

JUICY SUITS: Open Bedsores in Oregon State Prison

"In a civil-rights lawsuit filed Tuesday at U.S. District Court in Portland, former inmate Travis Putnam claims he suffered festering bedsores that went ignored for nearly a year by prison doctors."

Here's a nice report on male prison rape:
No Escape: Male Rape in U.S. Prisons

Here's a report of guard on prisoner rape:
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(S(wdtmpfaty52gjezbzcul0sr1))/21225_displayArticle.aspx

Sounds like club med!

All of these things are terrible and the prison officials should be held personally responsible as they are the ones accountable for the conditions.

How do you suggest we fix that problem? Sounds like we either need to stop over crowding them with minor drug offenders, or hire more employees to keep an eye on things.

 

[Phred]

When looking at the ACLU's actions, it's not hard to see that they unfairly favor all religions over Christianity and often target them for things that they would normally try to get protection for if it were any other religion.

Please, name just one.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No. You live in a society that's spent the last generation or so shoveling people into a prison system designed to create violent criminals.

The data we have would seem to indicate that a shift in emphasis from punishment to rehabilitation reduces the tendency to reoffend in America, just the same as anywhere else.

Sure, there's going to be a handful of deviants who can't be reformed, and I'm perfectly happy to say "throw away the key," in those instances. But even then, punishment serves no purpose.

Well sure, I'm not surprised that you'd see better luck with minor offenders when it comes to programs to get them ready for the outside. But for some offenses, there is no rehabilitation (in my opinion). For people who commit offenses that only impact themselves (like drug use), I'm open to allowing them to go on a work program of some kind and clean up their act. However, I think (and this is my opinion again), if you do something that takes away someone else's rights (murder, rape, kidnapping), you just lost your own rights as a consequence.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Please, name just one.

They have also sued other cities for having pictures of Jesus, displaying the ten commandments, and have forced other city halls to take down nativity scenes when none of which is a constitutional violation.

If you search the web, you'll find literally hundreds of these cases.
You almost never hear of them taking the same approach to other public displays from different religions.


Here's a couple of links to a particular story in which they told a school that a picture of Jesus had to be removed, but that they could keep their Buddha gear:
Jesus In the Classroom? - Opinions - The Ram - Fordham University at Rose Hill
Buddha's Okay | Learn The Bible

 

[KarateCowboy]

They have also sued other cities for having pictures of Jesus, displaying the ten commandments, and have forced other city halls to take down nativity scenes when none of which is a constitutional violation.

If you search the web, you'll find literally hundreds of these cases.
You almost never hear of them taking the same approach to other public displays from different religions.


Here's a couple of links to a particular story in which they told a school that a picture of Jesus had to be removed, but that they could keep their Buddha gear:
Jesus In the Classroom? - Opinions - The Ram - Fordham University at Rose Hill
Buddha's Okay | Learn The Bible

You've won a lot of respect from me with this post. You're an atheist, but point out that a city hall displaying a nativity scene is not unConstitutional. It's very hard to be that way --acknowledging that how you might like things and how things are be different things. As a Catholic (at least nominally) I would not want a state church in Illinois that is officially Orthodox, but the reality is it would be acceptable under the Federal Constitution.

 

[Jro]

All of these things are terrible and the prison officials should be held personally responsible as they are the ones accountable for the conditions.

I think problems like these are systemic in our judicial system, rather than simply being a case of a few bad apples. I also think that the sort of prisons we have in America has a lot to do with the sort of criminals we had in America.

How do you suggest we fix that problem? Sounds like we either need to stop over crowding them with minor drug offenders, or hire more employees to keep an eye on things.

Yup, those are both great ideas, I'd also suggest we start abolishing private prisons, which cost the tax payers more and in which both guards and prisoners are more likely to suffer violence (despite the fact that state run prisons take 7 times the number of violent offenders).

We also need to take any politician that promises to be 'tough on crime' with a grain of salt. Three strike laws, the war against drugs and mandatory minimum sentences are all part of the same system. It's no coincidence that many of the politicians who are most vocal about being tough on crime also have close ties to corporate prisons.

We need to really give ex cons a break. The recidivism rate in part is informed by how difficult it is for these folks to get on their own two feet.

Colorado's prison system structured to promote failure - Denver criminal justice | Examiner.com

 

[Jase]

Not necessarily vengeance, but yes it should be a punishment. If it weren't, they'd have no problem commiting the same crime when they get out to go right back.

Perhaps you can explain why European countries that don't even have life sentences (and none have the death penalty) have far far lower re-incarceration and crime rates than the United States?

We have one of, if not the highest re-incarceration rate in the western world, as well as the most prisoners. Clearly our system of cruel and unusual punishment isn't working.

 

[ryeaber]

They have also sued other cities for having pictures of Jesus, displaying the ten commandments, and have forced other city halls to take down nativity scenes when none of which is a constitutional violation.

If you search the web, you'll find literally hundreds of these cases.
You almost never hear of them taking the same approach to other public displays from different religions.


Here's a couple of links to a particular story in which they told a school that a picture of Jesus had to be removed, but that they could keep their Buddha gear:
Jesus In the Classroom? - Opinions - The Ram - Fordham University at Rose Hill
Buddha's Okay | Learn The Bible

Just wanted to point out that according to your links, unlike the portrait of Jesus (which was hanging in the hallway outside the principal’s office), the Buddha items were on display in individual classrooms “not as religious icons, but as symbols of important aspects of history and anthropology.”

That might be why they weren’t an issue.

The ACLU could have also gotten involved because there were complaints specifically regarding that portrait going back ten years (that the school ignored). Or it could have been that the fed already ruled that this specific portrait (Warner Sallman's "Head of Christ) was not allowed to hang in school hallways outside of the principal’s office so the ACLU thought it was cut and dry (Washegesic v. Bloomingdale Public Schools - 1993).

I’m sure if look at the actual backstory instead of the attention grabbing headlines, the “literally hundreds of these cases” that you mention are similar. Where what the ACLU did compared to what was reported on certain websites are greatly different. If you have any more links to post, I’d love to read them.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Just wanted to point out that according to your links, unlike the portrait of Jesus (which was hanging in the hallway outside the principal’s office), the Buddha items were on display in individual classrooms “not as religious icons, but as symbols of important aspects of history and anthropology.”

That might be why they weren’t an issue.

Speaking of that,
I posted earlier in this thread about the speech an ACLU rep gave at my college which my fellow secular folks were trying to dismiss as anecdotal an not holding water...

Throughout his entire presention, the word Christianity was used with the terms "infringing", "forcing", "agenda", "theocracy" and "separation of church and state". But when they were referring to other religions, they were coupled with words like "tolerance", "tradition", "freedom", "expression", and "acceptance".

Well, seems like I was spot on with my assumption the logic they use and the speaker was conveying their exact message.

So the picture of Jesus is offensive, but a statue of Buddha is "an important aspect of history".

Last time I checked Jesus (whether we believe in him or not) has had a bigger historical impact than Buddha so on what grounds are they making this determination, it certainly can't be from historical data and influence?

That's a bit of a double standard I would have to say...

A religious picture is a religious picture. They're all faith based therefore would have to be classified in the same group.

The ACLU could have also gotten involved because there were complaints specifically regarding that portrait going back ten years (that the school ignored). Or it could have been that the fed already ruled that this specific portrait (Warner Sallman's "Head of Christ) was not allowed to hang in school hallways outside of the principal’s office so the ACLU thought it was cut and dry (Washegesic v. Bloomingdale Public Schools - 1993).

Doesn't matter if someone complained or not. The principle runs the school and he can post whatever picture he wants as long as it's not in violation of any laws. As long as he's not calling the Children in his office and trying to indoctrinate someone else's chilren into a belief that's not their own, I don't care if 100 parents complain, he hasn't made any constitutional violations.

It's clear that they take the anti-Christian side. A principal puts up a picture of Jesus outside of his office, a secular parent complains, and the ACLU send their lawyers out to defend the parents who are being "offended". A science teacher exercises their right to teach evolution in their curriculum, a Christian parent files a complaint, and the ACLU sends their lawyers out to defend the teacher.

Just to be clear and consistent. Both sets of parents in these scenarios are wrong...parents on either side shouldn't be forcing their own values into a school curriculum.

I’m sure if you look at the actual backstory instead of the attention grabbing headlines, the “literally hundreds of these cases” that you mention are similar. Where what the ACLU did compared to what was reported on certain websites are greatly different. If you have any more links to post, I’d love to read them.

I did read the back story, but their logic is self-condradicting for the reasons I mentioned above.

Highlights of Ten Commandments Litigation | American Civil Liberties Union

Here's the list that they acknowledge just pertaining to the 10 commandments (doesn't include the nativity scene and Jesus picture cases which I'm all sure we've heard a fair share of on all of the news stations)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I just put in a request to a mod to get this thread name changed to a more generic title of "The Logic of the ACLU" since it's become a more general conversation about the ACLU and not 100% specific to prisoners rights.

I think the thread getting interesting so I wanted to keep it alive, but wanted it to have a more accurate title so that any new posters didn't see it and get something other than what they expected when they looked at the most recent posts.

Thanks,

 

[Jro]

Well, seems like I was spot on with my assumption the logic they use and the speaker was conveying their exact message.

So the picture of Jesus is offensive, but a statue of Buddha is "an important aspect of history".

Context is king- think about the difference between a swastika in a history textbook and one that's hung up outside the principle's office.

Last time I checked Jesus (whether we believe in him or not) has had a bigger historical impact than Buddha so on what grounds are they making this determination, it certainly can't be from historical data and influence?

We have plenty of mention of Jesus and Christianity- in fact, the only lessons I've had on Buddhist history were either from college or from my own readings. I'd say that's a relatively common experience in the US system. I think it's also important to highlight minority narratives within a culture, simply because otherwise they do not get told.

A religious picture is a religious picture. They're all faith based therefore would have to be classified in the same group.

You could say the same thing about flags, but yeah, displaying a flag in a history class is very different than flying it over the school.

It's clear that they take the anti-Christian side. A principal puts up a picture of Jesus outside of his office, a secular parent complains, and the ACLU send their lawyers out to defend the parents who are being "offended". A science teacher exercises their right to teach evolution in their curriculum, a Christian parent files a complaint, and the ACLU sends their lawyers out to defend the teacher.

Just to be clear and consistent. Both sets of parents in these scenarios are wrong...parents on either side shouldn't be forcing their own values into a school curriculum.

Would you be ok with a judge setting up a picture of jesus beside his bench? These situations aren't comparable in the least - it is not a science teacher's right to teach evolution, but their duty, as determined by the state. Likewise, the principle can not endorse a religion or attempt to establish one within his school. How many students who passed by his office do you think had seen a picture of jesus? A great many high school students I knew had never seen a buddha...

Highlights of Ten Commandments Litigation | American Civil Liberties Union

Here's the list that they acknowledge just pertaining to the 10 commandments (doesn't include the nativity scene and Jesus picture cases which I'm all sure we've heard a fair share of on all of the news stations)

I take it that this thread is more a complaint about the ACLU than it is about prison ethics...?

Edit: Beaten! Sorry!

 

[Jro]

Also, still reading other prison literature, and wanted to post regarding prison food. Here's some of the malpractices that are going on:

"The privatization of prison and jail food services began in Alabama. Over 70 years ago, Alabama passed a law that provided county sheriffs with $1.75 a day per jail prisoner to cover the cost of their meals. While the law went into effect in 1939, it is still in use today. Under that system, Alabama sheriffs are personally responsible for paying for prisoners’ food, but are allowed to keep any excess funds if they can feed prisoners for less than the payments they receive from the state...

Morgan County, Alabama Sheriff Greg Bartlett was jailed by federal authorities on January 8, 2009, after he admitted to pocketing over $200,000 allocated for meals for prisoners in the county jail...


What the district court found was deplorable. For breakfast, prisoners received a serving of unsweetened grits or oatmeal, a slice of bread and half an egg or less. Lunch consisted of either two baloney sandwiches or two sandwiches with a dab of peanut butter, plus a small bag of corn chips. For dinner prisoners were served either chicken livers, meat patties or two hot dogs, either slaw or onions, beans or mixed vegetables, and a slice of bread...

The district court further noted that “During the relevant period, Sheriff Bartlett has deposited in excess of $200,000 into his personal account from the funds allocated to him by the State of Alabama and the federal government for the feeding of inmates.”"

But far from being an isolated problem caused by one sheriff:

"In Clayton County, Georgia, prisoners went three months without hot food – from October 2009 to January 22, 2010 – after the pressure cookers in the jail’s kitchen went out. Most of the ovens and skillets were inoperable, too. Prisoners received cold pasta, bologna, cereal, sandwiches, fruit and hard-boiled eggs. “This is the fourth day I’ve had cold noodles,” said Clayton County jail prisoner Joquayla Perry, who was five weeks pregnant. “This is what we eat every day, and it’s nasty.”"

"Prisoners in Macomb County, Michigan have also been eating cold food. A mold problem shut down the kitchen at the county jail, resulting in prisoners being served a steady diet of bologna and peanut butter sandwiches."

"In Tennessee, a bill that would require only two meals a day for state prisoners was introduced by Senator Doug Jackson, who claimed the legislation was intended as a way to save money and not a form of punishment."

"Georgia’s state prison system has pared its prison menu to two meals a day on weekends, too. Lunch on Friday also was recently eliminated."

"Ohio is also preparing to cut back on meals for prisoners. State officials are considering the possibility of serving brunch instead of breakfast and lunch. It “could save us some real dollars when it comes to staffing and food costs,” said Ohio DOC director Terry Collins."

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(S(oonvja45trqppg555blsdzin))/22246_displayArticle.aspx

There's still more of the article that deals with the corruption of private companies contracted to do work for prisons.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Perhaps you can explain why European countries that don't even have life sentences (and none have the death penalty) have far far lower re-incarceration and crime rates than the United States?

We have one of, if not the highest re-incarceration rate in the western world, as well as the most prisoners. Clearly our system of cruel and unusual punishment isn't working.

Yep, I'm aware of that. The same thing came up in the gun control thread that I posted recently. It's a whole different culture in Canada & Europe than what we have here so it's tough to use their data as a guideline. The same could be said with any other system (whether it be their monetary system, economic system, etc...)

There are problems we have over here that they don't have over there. For one, they don't have the high immigration numbers we have over here.
(And this is not a knock to any of the law-abiding, hard working immigrants who came to this country to make a better life, I'm just presenting statistics)

Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

"Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

"Up to a third of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics - but not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens."

Number of immigrants in federal prison increases, but proportion stays stable - The Federal Eye - The Washington Post

Lawmaker to Feds: Reimburse California for Illegal Immigrants | NBC Los Angeles

We neighbor a country (and continent) that has some of the most powerful drug lords and criminal elements in the world with easy access to our ports and borders and have far too many prisons that are "for-profit" and owned and regulated by private corporations.

You combine these elements, and we don't stand a chance in terms of prison & crime statistics.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Context is king- think about the difference between a swastika in a history textbook and one that's hung up outside the principle's office.

Speaking of context:
The swastika (in the German 1940's sense which is the one I'm assuming you're referring to to emphasize your point) is a symbol of an anti-Jewish movement which is directly derogatory against specific groups. Yes, symbols that represent anti-"insert group here" movements are in bad taste and a direct attack, however a picture of Jesus wouldn't fall in that same category, and even if they were in the same category, it doesn't matter, it's not the government or the ACLU's job to dictate when our freedom of expression ends.

We have plenty of mention of Jesus and Christianity- in fact, the only lessons I've had on Buddhist history were either from college or from my own readings. I'd say that's a relatively common experience in the US system. I think it's also important to highlight minority narratives within a culture, simply because otherwise they do not get told.

Yes, we do, which is what I would expect in a country that has more Christians that Buddhists. If everyone is allowed free speech, it would make sense that one would be mentioned in conversation more than the other.

You could say the same thing about flags, but yeah, displaying a flag in a history class is very different than flying it over the school.

Yep, they're vastly different, but both should be protected.

Would you be ok with a judge setting up a picture of jesus beside his bench? These situations aren't comparable in the least - it is not a science teacher's right to teach evolution, but their duty, as determined by the state. Likewise, the principle can not endorse a religion or attempt to establish one within his school. How many students who passed by his office do you think had seen a picture of jesus? A great many high school students I knew had never seen a buddha...

Sure, if he prefers to keep a picture of Jesus there, that's none of my business.

How is it a science teacher's duty to teach evolution more than ID or creationism? It's a theory, much like ID or creationism. I personally happen to subscribe to evolution, but I still acknowledge it as a theory. So if they want to pass laws on what a teacher can teach, theories on the origin of man should all be treated the same. However, the ACLU sees it differently as they automatically lump in ID and creationism with Christianity.

I called it a "right" since the teacher essentially has the choice to spend differnt amount of time on various topics based on their own discretion. (IE: My history teacher was a war vet so he spent more time discussing war-related topics than the other history teachers in the school).

I take it that this thread is more a complaint about the ACLU than it is about prison ethics...?

That's why I made a post to the Mods to change the title

 

[AtheistVet]

How is it a science teacher's duty to teach evolution more than ID or creationism? It's a theory, much like ID or creationism. I personally happen to subscribe to evolution, but I still acknowledge it as a theory.

Then you don't understand it, especially if you think it's at all like ID or creationism.

Creationism and ID have absolutely zero facts backing it up. It's not science, so it should not be taught as science.

Unless you just want America's students to remain ignorant.

 

[Jro]

Speaking of context:
The swastika (in the German 1940's sense which is the one I'm assuming you're referring to to emphasize your point) is a symbol of an anti-Jewish movement which is directly derogatory against specific groups. Yes, symbols that represent anti-"insert group here" movements are in bad taste and a direct attack, however a picture of Jesus wouldn't fall in that same category, and even if they were in the same category, it doesn't matter, it's not the government or the ACLU's job to dictate when our freedom of expression ends.

Except that when a Principle is acting in his or her official capacity they are an employee of the state. This invests them with considerably more power and considerably more obligations and responsibilities, both over and for their students. The Principle's right to free speech is not violated, he is just expected to not use his job as an outlet and captive audience for his opinions.

Yes, we do, which is what I would expect in a country that has more Christians that Buddhists. If everyone is allowed free speech, it would make sense that one would be mentioned in conversation more than the other.

Right, but that creates an obligation in schools to address this gap in conversation. It's pretty horrible that someone can stay in school 18 years and only learn about their own culture.

Yep, they're vastly different, but both should be protected.

Why?

Sure, if he prefers to keep a picture of Jesus there, that's none of my business.

Can you see how a principle, posting a picture of jesus in front of his office might convey a different message from a picture of jesus in a history book? Which one would carry more weight to a student? It seems to me that one is supposed to be a figure you live under, whereas the other is a figure to be studied. In my opinion, this an attempt at using a government office to advance a specific religion. You're right, it's ambiguous, but that's why we have courts.

How is it a science teacher's duty to teach evolution more than ID or creationism? It's a theory, much like ID or creationism.

I think that before we start this conversation, it's important to define theory. In colloquial usage, theory essentially means 'guess.' I could have a theory about why my girlfriend broke up with me, why my dog won't bark and why my candy bar is warm. Scientific theories have a more rigorous definition, which creationism and ID do not fit. We can discuss this further if you like, but it might be helpful to discuss it in context of a specific legal action, such as Kitzmiller v. Dover or the Scopes trial.