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The LOGIC as to why gay marriage should be ILLEGAL

MoonLancer

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Yes. No.

Again with the lowest common denominator definition. By this argument you change what marriage is apparently, to equal something else, and then add a similar (not even identical) group onto it. This just adds another weak link, but give the illusion of group equality a bit better.

I am married. I wont have kids. How am i changing a definition. You want to make a definition of marriage unattainable by gays claiming its not discriminating when that's exactly what your trying to do. In fact your definition even excludes heterosexuals like myself. Is that logical?

Its not I who is changing the definition of marriage. Its you. Your trying to destroy the sanctity of MY marriage. what say you.
 
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fated

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I am married. I wont have kids. How am i changing a definition. You want to make a definition of marriage unattainable by gays claiming its not discriminating when that's exactly what your trying to do. In fact your definition even excludes heterosexuals like myself. Is that logical?

Its not I who is changing the definition of marriage. Its you. Your trying to destroy the sanctity of MY marriage. what say you.
You are proposing the change of a societal norm to affirm your marriage? No, that is what gays are proposing. I have no intention of doing anything to your marriage, but adding gays removes fertility from the institution, even if you have decided to do so. Excluding you would involve an invasion of reasonable privacy.

You could, certainly, make the system even more cold blooded and reward only those who have children, and that would also be perfectly logical. The whole point here, is that excluding gays is perfectly logical. There is no reason not to... Which is why the appeal is typically formed the other way, as in, "why would you exclude?" Most people don't buy the discrimination argument on its face value, or later on down the line, but are more susceptible to the emotional appeal.

I know a ton about this subject. If you look at California gays were given the title married not as a result of equality, but as a result of being a protected class that was similar.
 
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Supernaut

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You are proposing the change of a societal norm to affirm your marriage? No, that is what gays are proposing. I have no intention of doing anything to your marriage, but adding gays removes fertility from the institution, even if you have decided to do so. Excluding you would involve an invasion of reasonable privacy.

Societal norms are ever changing. Giving equal rights to gays puts everybody on equal standing.

You could, certainly, make the system even more cold blooded and reward only those who have children, and that would also be perfectly logical.

That is rediculous.

The whole point here, is that excluding gays is perfectly logical. There is no reason not to... Which is why the appeal is typically formed the other way, as in, "why would you exclude?" Most people don't buy the discrimination argument on its face value, or later on down the line, but are more susceptible to the emotional appeal.

How is denying equal rights logical? Most people are more compassionate than you seem to be.

I know a ton about this subject.

Did you pat yourself on the back yet? Do you have personal experience or did you just read a lot?


If you look at California gays were given the title married not as a result of equality, but as a result of being a protected class that was similar.

Rediculous. They were given equal rights on marriage (for a time). Protected class status isn't a bad thing btw. If you were in their position, you would be asking for protection from discrimination as well.
 
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MoonLancer

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You are proposing the change of a societal norm to affirm your marriage? No, that is what gays are proposing. I have no intention of doing anything to your marriage, but adding gays removes fertility from the institution, even if you have decided to do so. Excluding you would involve an invasion of reasonable privacy.

Societal norm is only a word you use to affirm your bigotry against gays using your own marriage as a base. You assume that your marriage is the so called societal norm because its the most popular masking it with the words societal norm. That is also a form of a fallacy called ad populi. Your definition excludes my heterosexual marriage. Thus it is you trying to change the definition of marriage.

You could, certainly, make the system even more cold blooded and reward only those who have children, and that would also be perfectly logical. The whole point here, is that excluding gays is perfectly logical. There is no reason not to... Which is why the appeal is typically formed the other way, as in, "why would you exclude?" Most people don't buy the discrimination argument on its face value, or later on down the line, but are more susceptible to the emotional appeal.
and i guess we could set a child limit to marriages as well seeing how over population is a major problem which you seem happy to contribute to.

I know a ton about this subject. If you look at California gays were given the title married not as a result of equality, but as a result of being a protected class that was similar.
does this knowledge come from the sources you refuse to share?
 
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JGG

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By keeping marriage about biological children of both partners, at lest partially, it is perfectly reasonable to exclude gays without being prejudiced whatsoever.

Obviously there is no necessity to change the definition away from this as most people would agree with this.

To be fair you haven't given an actual definition. By making marriage about biological children of both partners, at least partially is exceedingly vague. What does the "at least partially" part refer to? Why can't homosexuals fit into that portion? Why would barren, and elderly couples fit in there?

Making marriage merely based on emotion, makes it a senseless law or, in other words, bad jurisprudence and a waste of resources.

To be fair, sometimes marriage is based on excessive alcohol, fear of being alone, financial security, or even revenge. How do you plan on stopping that?

If instead, it is to protect children from broken homes and society from these children (an argument understandable to the current culture) it is sensible, becomes about heterosexual sex, and highlights the difference, which is children.

We have to protect society from what? Why? How? Explain why marriage is solely about heterosexual sex?

Commonly: Celibacy is healthy, and apparently so is married sex.

Celibacy is not always healthy. We do have a desire for sex, and an attitude of denial is not particularly healthy either. For an example, let's look at Catholic priests. Sex in marriage is healthy, but no more so than a couple who is unwed and have a sex life. In fact, it is all to common to have a deteriorated sex life in marriage. Celibacy until marriage can be disasterous if the couple happens to be sexually incompatible. Trust me, I've seen it happen.

It appears that this is inconsistent with gay sex.

I believe your premise to be flawed, so I don't reach the same conclusion. But why can't two men or women be in love with each other and not be celibate?

If you need to have a discussion about sources, I'll just say that you can find them if you look, even if you don't like the people who wrote the one you find.

This is not a hopeful statement. But, sure I will find some literature as to why celibacy is good for some people. However, there is a ton of literature on why celibacy just isn't healthy for everyone, if you look.

People have various definition, I'm pointing out that logical definition exist that would exclude gays without being discriminatory.

Well, not really. You're argument is based on the assertion that marriage is to benefit children, and society. I'm still waiting for an explanation for how this would be so.

Secondly, you keep referring to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, this is how the law works. Because marriage covers people who cannot bear children, or who do not want children without disqualification, there is no reason to disqualify homosexuals. There is no passage in the law, or by the definition of marriage that says: "a union between two people who intend to have children."

Thirdly, this all sort of ignores the role of adoption. If the purpose of such a union is to have children, than adoption would really have to be expelled. Afterall, by your logic infertile parents should not be getting married in the first place, and adopting would be a public admission of their bucking the system, or getting married for emotional reasons. Otherwise, we would have to admit that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because they could adopt children, and still complete the "marital unit."

Finally, explain why our society would use this defintion of marriage (which has not been suitably defined to my taste), except to deny marriage to homosexuals? Redefining marriage in such a way seems prejudicial.
 
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DeathMagus

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No gymnastics are required. Apparently, all I have to do is say I "you lost me." and I can assert that mental gymnastics are necessary to disagree with me.
The two are completely unrelated, actually.

But, then, I'm more genuine than that.
Fair enough - how about you answer the question and refrain from posturing?

I understand, but disagree with lowest common denominator logic, and I understand, but disagree, with gay marriage as charitable support for gays.

Then cut to the chase and answer my question. Making vague comments doesn't earn you bonus points.
 
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C

Chazemataz

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Commonly: Celibacy is healthy, and apparently so is married sex. It appears that this is inconsistent with gay sex.

so, would you say that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing? if so, then at least you are being consistent, I'll give you that.
and as a side note, I used to be one of those people who were afraid to even touch because I was scared of God. Then I realized that God must be petty if He worried about such a thing, and became sexually "free" so to speak, and noticed I was much more happier and healthier.

If you need to have a discussion about sources, I'll just say that you can find them if you look, even if you don't like the people who wrote the one you find.

Anyways, why should the government be telling people who to have sex with as long as they're not a child or animal? What interest of the government is furthered by mandating who has sex with whom, even if there is a significant health risk? Should we make bondage fetishes illegal because they are dangerous?

Now, were we, no longer about logic, but about an emotional appeal, which goes away from the threads intent, also, I answered that in my last post.

Exactly, because this is an emotional topic. This involves love which is a human emotion, and it is a shame there are those who would wish to restrict it. Especially since Jesus said that he who loves knows My father.
How romantic does "Oh, honey, let's have a social contract to make babies" sound? It doesn't. If I told a girl that I'd be out of a girlfriend.

But I digress. In the court of the law, one does not argue emotions or logic. Would you like to discuss the legal merits of gay marriage? For one, by not allowing gay couples to marry both Loving v. Virignia is violated (which stated that marriage for all citizens was a civil right) as well as the equal protection clause. The equal protection clause is being violated because there are two consenting adults wishing to get married, and yet they are being denied because they are homosexuals. Therefore, it singals out homosexuals as a group and therefore it is unconstitutional to not allow gay couples to marry.

The reason why gay marriage isn't legal everywhere is simply because of the taboo of it, much like interracial marriage in the 60's.
 
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DeathMagus

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All I can say, Fated - is wow. You are quite the mental gymnast. In this thread, you are essentially stating that marriage is all about procreation and doing what is best for the kids. Meanwhile, you are also stating that it is "perfectly logical" and consistent to allow sterile couples, couples who don't wish to have children, and the elderly - with no explanation about why these groups should be exempt from the same swath you use to cut homosexuals off from marriage.

I've seen your posts - you're more than capable of forming a consistent position. Kindly do so here.
 
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JustMeSee

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prostate health and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]

It is believed that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is good for prostate health. So, no, celibacy (no masturbation) is not healthier than gay sex.

In any case, the gay rights movement is moving forward. Far fewer people feel moved to discriminate due to sexual orientation. In a matter of years, gay marriages will be equally accepted in the majority of the world.

As far as I am concerned, marriage is the union of consenting adult humans. Children are a byproduct of sexual intercourse. Marriage is preferred, but optional.
 
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ASquared

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The issue of marriage can be settled, for a Christian at least, very simply. Gen. 2:18-24 V.24b "...and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh". Adam and Eve, man and woman. easy.

the question really is, who decides what marriage is? in the US, we the people decide, or so we hope. even though I find the idea repugnant, and, if I voted, would vote against it, if the majority of Americans were to say "we want to allow gay marriage" then that's what we would have, regardless of mine or anyone elses' feelings. And really, would the fabric of American society finally be ripped to shreds at this latest attack of the liberals? no, it wouldn't. Ultimately the issue should be decided by the PEOPLE, not the GOVERNMENT.

Just a point of note: no one has said that an approval of gay marriage must mean an approval of the Church. remember that whole separation of Church and state thing. no pastor would be required to preside over a gay marriage.

oh, just to make it relevant, the gentleman's argument was totally bogus. he should've stuck to Scripture instead of misusing "logic". :)
 
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KCKID

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The issue of marriage can be settled, for a Christian at least, very simply. Gen. 2:18-24 V.24b "...and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh". Adam and Eve, man and woman. easy.

It's easy to say 'easy' as long as the fable of Adam and Eve is accepted merely by rote, devoid of any use of reason. God appears to have been making everything up as He went along in early Genesis. Even when God seems to realize that a helper is necessary for Adam, a female (Eve) is not the first and obvious choice. God instead searches for a helper among the livestock, the birds, and the animals. Alas, none of them were found to be suitable. :confused:
Eventually it occurs to God :idea: that perhaps Adam might prefer a helper that is a similar species to himself. Bingo! Then comes Eve. Not a bevy of females from which Adam can choose to be his helper, mind, but just one, Eve. And, isn't that generally the way that it was in the days of yore, the authority figures choosing wives for the sons?

I find it inconceivable that anyone would actually expect a 'gay' couple to conclude that their relationship should come to a grinding halt and forthwith remain celibate after reading Genesis ...or Paul, for that matter.

Sorry. At times I realize that I'm guilty of injecting far too much sound reasoning into this issue.

By the way, it wasn't God who said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.' It was Moses, the human author.
 
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cantata

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Fated, I wonder where you get this idea that marriage benefits children? Could you provide some evidence that the children of happily married couples are better off than the children of happily cohabiting couples? What about evidence that children do better with unhappily married parents than with separated or divorced parents?
 
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quatona

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As for the idea that the legal marriage contract is predominantly or necessarily about procreation/reproduction:
As far as I know (but that may be different in different countries) nowhere in the traditional marital ceremony you promise to procreate and have and/or raise children. You promise to love, honour and be truthful to each other, in good times and bad times until death.
This fact seems to suggest that the focus of legal marriage lies somewhere else than on procreation.
 
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fated

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The reason these debates on thread are so heated is because those who are pro-marriage generally know actual logical arguments regarding the issue. It is then that gay marriage activists are taught to avoid reason and use either an emotional appeal or shaming to avoid any discussion of procreation.

Also, they the emotional appeal often shows that they don't have a logical argument and appeals that allows should be awarded marriage to help them with their differences.

Also, I read a recent article, wherein it is indicated that the best need to identify themselves as gay first, and then indicates that anyone who is against gay marriage therefore hates them, which, as I have indicated is not a logical conclusion, but a malignant type of rhetoric.

Finally, you can see by going through these thread the lack of respect for children and families that is taught to gay marriage activist. As if I'm abhorrent just because I'm different than? And that is were the unnatural argument comes in, when you don't respect natural mothers and fathers, and comprehend natural differences, then you aren't in reality.

In fact, many of the arguments aren't even logical. And among those that are logical they fail to see that logic has many paths, and many of them are false.
 
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fated

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Fated, I wonder where you get this idea that marriage benefits children? Could you provide some evidence that the children of happily married couples are better off than the children of happily cohabiting couples? What about evidence that children do better with unhappily married parents than with separated or divorced parents?
It's the same evidence that gays use in actual cases like the one in California.

Gays in places like this attempt to declare equality to be logical, but it isn't. So, when it goes to court, there is actually a bait and switch, wherein in court they seek protected status, for whatever reason, including marriages positive performance in child rearing, as reason that they 'need' marriage, even if the public can logically deny them entry.
 
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CaDan

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The reason these debates on thread are so heated is because those who are pro-marriage generally know actual logical arguments regarding the issue. It is then that gay marriage activists are taught to avoid reason and use either an emotional appeal or shaming to avoid any discussion of procreation.

Not an argument. Just a combination of boasting and tu quoque.

Also, they the emotional appeal often shows that they don't have a logical argument and appeals that allows should be awarded marriage to help them with their differences.

Pathos isn't argumentation? LOL.

Also, I read a recent article, wherein it is indicated that the best need to identify themselves as gay first, and then indicates that anyone who is against gay marriage therefore hates them, which, as I have indicated is not a logical conclusion, but a malignant type of rhetoric.

Has anyone made that argument here? No.

Finally, you can see by going through these thread the lack of respect for children and families that is taught to gay marriage activist. As if I'm abhorrent just because I'm different than? And that is were the unnatural argument comes in, when you don't respect natural mothers and fathers, and comprehend natural differences, then you aren't in reality.

Not an argument. More tu quoque.

In fact, many of the arguments aren't even logical. And among those that are logical they fail to see that logic has many paths, and many of them are false.

Speaking of logic--you're doing it wrong. You are arguing from your conclusions to your premises.
 
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CaDan

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It's the same evidence that gays use in actual cases like the one in California.

Gays in places like this attempt to declare equality to be logical, but it isn't. So, when it goes to court, there is actually a bait and switch, wherein in court they seek protected status, for whatever reason, including marriages positive performance in child rearing, as reason that they 'need' marriage, even if the public can logically deny them entry.

Can someone translate this into natural language?
 
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LittleNipper

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It's easy to say 'easy' as long as the fable of Adam and Eve is accepted merely by rote, devoid of any use of reason. God appears to have been making everything up as He went along in early Genesis. Even when God seems to realize that a helper is necessary for Adam, a female (Eve) is not the first and obvious choice. God instead searches for a helper among the livestock, the birds, and the animals. Alas, none of them were found to be suitable. :confused:
Eventually it occurs to God :idea: that perhaps Adam might prefer a helper that is a similar species to himself. Bingo! Then comes Eve. Not a bevy of females from which Adam can choose to be his helper, mind, but just one, Eve. And, isn't that generally the way that it was in the days of yore, the authority figures choosing wives for the sons?

I find it inconceivable that anyone would actually expect a 'gay' couple to conclude that their relationship should come to a grinding halt and forthwith remain celibate after reading Genesis ...or Paul, for that matter.

Sorry. At times I realize that I'm guilty of injecting far too much sound reasoning into this issue.

By the way, it wasn't God who said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.' It was Moses, the human author.

It is hard to believe that pedophiles can get over having sex with babies, but they can and have... Social acceptence and rejection, in addition to spiritual guidance goes a long way to repairing a warped mind...
 
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fated

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Speaking of logic--you're doing it wrong. You are arguing from your conclusions to your premises.

No, that's another substantial weakness, because the pro-family people are typically for marriage reform, which draws from their premises, and is precisely a reason to exclude gays from marriage.
 
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KCKID

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Can someone translate this into natural language?

Actually, I thought I had a reasonable command of the English language since English is my natural tongue; however, I sure have a tough time attempting to decipher many of the posts of fated.
 
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