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The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8

Trivalee

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Jesus pointed to a future "end times" when he referred to Daniel. (Matthew 24:15). There's still the 70th week, when the focus will return to Israel.
The book Daniel and Revelation are arguably and perhaps, the most difficult of all the Books of the Bible because of the rich allegory and symbolism of their writing style. Their writing is a departure from the clear prose used by Apostle Paul in his epistles.

Failing to pay attention to the context and time in history described by some texts, some Christians have misinterpreted many prophecies and misplaced their timescale. In their error, they place the right person at the wrong timeline and vice versa. The common problem that some people fail to grasp is how the "time of the end" is used in Daniel. Unfortunately, many automatically associate every reference to "time of the end" in this book to the end of the age/End Times.

For example, Dan 11:6, 27, 29 are common references to the 'time of the end', yet they are all fulfilled but were future to the time Prophet Daniel had the visions.

In conclusion, references to the end times in Dan 7 (AC's era) point to the eschaton, whereas similar references in Dan 8 (time of A4E) are already fulfilled.
 
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Berean Tim

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The end of ALL of Daniel's prophecies were completed when God would "shatter the power of the holy people" (Daniel 12:7). "...And when he shall have accomplished to shatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

That center of "power" for Daniel's people was the "sanctuary of strength" as Daniel called the temple in Daniel 11:31. When that Temple structure and its priesthood as the focal point of the Jewish religion was crushed and torn down to the last stone in AD 70, ALL of Daniel's prophecies were "finished", according to the one giving Daniel those visions.

Daniel's 70th week is ancient history, lasting from AD 30 through AD 37. The 70th week immediately followed the 69th week, without any gap of time whatever in between. Scripture knows of no such artificial time-gap inserted in this 70-week yardstick, which measured 490 completely-intact years of prophecy. Of what use is a measuring tape made of elastic or chopped into two pieces? Just try using something like that to build a house, and you have a construction disaster on your hands.
Matthew 2429“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus didn't return "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". The 70 AD theory always falls short. I see Daniel "fulfilled prophecy" as types, God's proof of his word
 
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Trivalee

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Hi Trivalee,

The little horn is the A/C who starts off with limited power, (horn = power) and makes the treaty with Israel after the Russian war. (Dan. 9: 27) He comes from the 4th beast/kingdom which is different from the others. (Dan. 7: 7 & 8) The 10 horns (powers) come together when the A/C rules for 42 months. (Rev. 13: 5, 17: 12 & 13)

Dan. 8 reveals the region that he comes from - out of the former Greek Empire, the northern part.

The A/C is the Assyrian, (Isa. 31: 8) from the region of Iraq, Syria and Jordan, the former Assyrian Empire. These 3 regions which were formerly one, have been divided up by the allies, (Britain and France) after WW 1. They are `pulled up by the roots,` referring to the false division placed upon them and they will be the power base of the A/C when he starts to arise.

I believe we are about to see the Russian Federation plus Iran, Libya and Ethiopia, (Ez. 38: 1 - 5) be turned around from going to the Ukraine (where they are now) and God will bring them down through Georgia, Turkey and Syria to the Golan heights just outside Israel. And there God will deal with them. (The Body of Christ will be caught away.)

Then the A/C will make the peace treaty with Israel for 7 years.

If your position is that the LH of Dan 7 and 8 are the same person, then I'm afraid you are wrong. I accept that the horn in Dan 7 is the AC, but Dan 8 speaks of a different person; arguably the Antichrist's antitype
 
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Jesus didn't return "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

Actually, yes He did, just as He promised in Luke 21:8-36. Concerning that entire list of disasters Christ gave to the disciples, followed by His return, He said "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." That phrase "ALL these things" included His soon-coming return in that generation his disciples were living in.

You and I aren't waiting for the second coming and all that list of tribulations, which have already happened. We are waiting on the THIRD coming.
 
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jgr

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Agreed.

My argument is to highlight that the LH of Dan 7 is different from that of Dan 8. Dan 7:9-11 refers to the same timeline that is consistent with the time of the future Antichrist.

In my view, since verses 9-10 does not contradict the timescale of v-11, ergo there's no pressing need for me to quote v-9-10 in conjunction with v11.

The Reformers of the Protestant Reformation recognized that the LH of Daniel 7 referred to the antichrist of the apostasized papacy of their era, which they engaged in spiritual battle.

By God's grace and mercy, that battle was won, and we are here today.

However, the war continues; that antichrist still persists today, and will persist until the end, and the events of Daniel 7:9-11.
 
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Berean Tim

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Actually, yes He did, just as He promised in Luke 21:8-36. Concerning that entire list of disasters Christ gave to the disciples, followed by His return, He said "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." That phrase "ALL these things" included His soon-coming return in that generation his disciples were living in.

You and I aren't waiting for the second coming and all that list of tribulations, which have already happened. We are waiting on the THIRD coming.
Not one ECF recorded this "coming" and it states all will see him
 
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Not one ECF recorded this "coming" and it states all will see him

The ECF had a difficult time just wrapping their heads around even the most basic of doctrines, like the nature of Christ, and debated them extensively among each other. Ireneaus couldn't even get Jesus's age at His crucifixion correct. And though they learned directly from Jesus Himself, even the twelve disciples had a hard time understanding what Christ was teaching them during His ministry. After He ascended to heaven, they needed the assistance of the Holy Spirit to clarify His message and bring things to their remembrance.

Scripture does NOT say that all people everywhere on the planet would simultaneously see Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 1:7 says that specifically, it would be "even (or namely) they which pierced Him" who would see His return to the Mount of Olives. Those trapped within the besieged city of Jerusalem were the ones who saw Christ returning across the Kidron Valley between them. That Kidron Valley was the "great gulf fixed" between those in the city and all the patriarchs and the resurrected saints who were gathered to meet Christ in the air across from them.

This viewing of the returning Christ resulted in weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth by the besieged members of the tribes of Israel trapped inside Jerusalem, who were guilty of murdering the Messiah; grieving that they were not able to participate in the benefits of that resurrection. The "door" to the kingdom in heaven was shut, and they were on the outside of it.

Anyone left alive in the city who had witnessed this event on Pentecost Day in AD 70 ended up dead five months afterwards of starvation, plague, or the sword. The few who managed to survive were taken captive and sold into slavery or sent to die in Roman arenas at the end of the siege. Unfortunately, dead people and enslaved prisoners don't write memoirs or their eye-witness accounts of Christ's return for your modern-day perusal.

That leaves you with Christ's words and the scripture's record proving that He was about to return before those in His generation had all died. Whether you want to believe this or not, thankfully it is not an issue that affects your eternal destiny.
 
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Berean Tim

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The ECF had a difficult time just wrapping their heads around even the most basic of doctrines, like the nature of Christ, and debated them extensively among each other. Ireneaus couldn't even get Jesus's age at His crucifixion correct. And though they learned directly from Jesus Himself, even the twelve disciples had a hard time understanding what Christ was teaching them during His ministry. After He ascended to heaven, they needed the assistance of the Holy Spirit to clarify His message and bring things to their remembrance.

Scripture does NOT say that all people everywhere on the planet would simultaneously see Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 1:7 says that specifically, it would be "even (or namely) they which pierced Him" who would see His return to the Mount of Olives. Those trapped within the besieged city of Jerusalem were the ones who saw Christ returning across the Kidron Valley between them. That Kidron Valley was the "great gulf fixed" between those in the city and all the patriarchs and the resurrected saints who were gathered to meet Christ in the air across from them.

This viewing of the returning Christ resulted in weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth by the besieged members of the tribes of Israel trapped inside Jerusalem, who were guilty of murdering the Messiah; grieving that they were not able to participate in the benefits of that resurrection. The "door" to the kingdom in heaven was shut, and they were on the outside of it.

Anyone left alive in the city who had witnessed this event on Pentecost Day in AD 70 ended up dead five months afterwards of starvation, plague, or the sword. The few who managed to survive were taken captive and sold into slavery or sent to die in Roman arenas at the end of the siege. Unfortunately, dead people and enslaved prisoners don't write memoirs or their eye-witness accounts of Christ's return for your modern-day perusal.

That leaves you with Christ's words and the scripture's record proving that He was about to return before those in His generation had all died. Whether you want to believe this or not, thankfully it is not an issue that affects your eternal destiny.
Many of the ECF's taught of the coming of the AC, including Ireneaus. Do you separate Matthew from Revelation ? There was no Beast with a "fatal head wound" & FP making people take the "mark" in 70 AD. Also, there was not the AOD, spoken by the prophet Daniel. The AOD wasn't the destruction of the Temple, it's the AC sitting in the Temple proclaiming himself god. See 2nd Thessalonians 2
 
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..., there was not the AOD, spoken by the prophet Daniel. The AOD wasn't the destruction of the Temple, it's the AC sitting in the Temple proclaiming himself god. See 2nd Thessalonians 2

I trust Luke 21:20's interpretation of what Daniel's "abomination of desolation" was. Luke called the AOD "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Armies typically desolate any environment they come against. This happened once in Daniel 11:31 under Antiochus Epiphanes and the "arms that stood on his part" that "polluted the sanctuary of strength" (the Temple) by the desolating actions they committed while in Jerusalem.

Armies (plural) came to surround Jerusalem again in AD 66, both the Roman and Zealot armies (plural). Both of these armies "stood where they ought not", with some of the competing Zealot army factions invading their own temple to supply what they needed to wage war against each other and against the Roman army, and the Roman army making contact with the Temple wall in their attempt to tunnel underneath it. Continual, "overspreading" desolations, especially by the civil war between the Zealot factions within Jerusalem, Daniel said were "determined" to last during and until the end of that war in AD 70 (Daniel 9:26).

The single AC or "Man of Lawlessness" was only one of "many antichrists" that had already gone out from among those whom John was addressing in 1 John 2:18-19. This individual was named Menahem, who got into the Temple in AD 66, presenting himself as the "King of the Jews" in Herod's royal robes of state stolen from Masada. He only lasted a couple of weeks until the "brightness of his coming" into power was destroyed along with himself and all his soldiers. For Menahem to claim the "King of the Jews" title was to be an imposter claiming to be Daniel's prophesied Messiah of Israel - a title that only Jesus was allowed to have. Menahem "exalted himself" over every other Messiah claimant who was attempting to be called God / the Messiah, but his self-exaltation was brief indeed.

If the ECF were still looking for this single Antichrist to arise, then they missed the past fulfillment in AD 66, as has anyone else today who thinks this single individual has not come yet.

There was no Beast with a "fatal head wound" & FP making people take the "mark" in 70 AD.

You're right - the "wound" was not in AD 70. That "wound" to the single head of the Sea Beast was geographical damage to a literal mountain which that Roman Sea Beast sat upon. This serious, almost fatal damage to the city of Rome took place in the devastating AD 64 fire at Rome, after which that "wound" was healed. Nero immediately began a massive rebuilding program for the city of Rome of marvelous design and splendor, including his own "Golden House" with the almost 100' Colossus of Nero built of bronze.

As for the False Prophet imposing that "mark" in honor of the Sea Beast, this mark was a duplicate of the pagan Tyrian shekel with abominable images and inscriptions. The Jewish religious leadership (the FP) forced anyone coming to the Temple to use this duplicated Tyrian shekel minted in Jerusalem for buying and selling items for Temple worship from 19 BC until AD 66, when the Zealots did away with the Tyrian shekel and began minting their own currency. The moneychangers raked in vast profits from fees charged for every coin exchange made in the Temple. This had made the Temple a "den of thieves" as Christ called it.

Do you separate Matthew from Revelation ?

Which part of Matthew separated from which part of Revelation? Revelation has some ancient history included in it, to give a proper background setting for the events that were beginning to unfold in that generation. Are you speaking of Matthew 24 specifically? That is all revealed in Revelation as being presently "at hand" for that generation, including Christ's second coming in AD 70, and the NHNE which are present conditions.
 
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Douggg

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The two horns are not the same person. The horn in Dan 7 is the future Antichrist of Rev 13 but, the little horn (LH) of Dan 8 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A4E).
Antiochus was not time of the end. The vision regarding the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8 is time of the end. In the new testament, the transgression of desolation will be the act by the Antichrist in 2Thesslaonians2:4.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 
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Douggg

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Dan. 8 reveals the region that he comes from - out of the former Greek Empire, the northern part.

The A/C is the Assyrian, (Isa. 31: 8) from the region of Iraq, Syria and Jordan, the former Assyrian Empire.
Hi Marilyn, how are you getting Iraq, Syria and Jordan - given that the little horn waxes strong from north and west of the pleasant land (Israel) ? i.e. the little horn heads southeast.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn, how are you getting Iraq, Syria and Jordan - given that the little horn waxes strong from north and west of the pleasant land (Israel) ? i.e. the little horn heads southeast.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Sorry to have missed your post there Douggg,

So ....the A/C is called among many names as the Assyrian, and that is the ancient region of Iraq, Syria and Jordan. That area is also a part of the old Greek Empire - the king of the North.

After WW 1 the allies Britain and France divided up that region and took parts for themselves. It is called `drawing a line in the sand,` which was in effect what they did. Here is a pic.

5b.ALineintheSand.jpg


When the A/C comes to power he will `pull up those three by the roots.` meaning he will get rid of those colonial `roots` and make it his power base - regional. From there he will develop influence till another 7 give him their power and thus make 10 kings - a national base. And then he becomes ruler by deceit over the world.

3 - Iraq, Syria & Jordan.
7 - Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Omar, Yemen & Saudi Arabia.
 
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Douggg

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Sorry to have missed your post there Douggg,

So ....the A/C is called among many names as the Assyrian, and that is the ancient region of Iraq, Syria and Jordan. That area is also a part of the old Greek Empire - the king of the North.

After WW 1 the allies Britain and France divided up that region and took parts for themselves. It is called `drawing a line in the sand,` which was in effect what they did. Here is a pic.

View attachment 309260

When the A/C comes to power he will `pull up those three by the roots.` meaning he will get rid of those colonial `roots` and make it his power base - regional. From there he will develop influence till another 7 give him their power and thus make 10 kings - a national base. And then he becomes ruler by deceit over the world.

3 - Iraq, Syria & Jordan.
7 - Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Omar, Yemen & Saudi Arabia.
Hi Marilyn,

In Daniel 8:9 the little horn waxes strong to the south and east toward the pleasant land, Israel.

So there is a conflict between your map (of where the little horn comes from) and the directions given in Daniel 8:9. To get to Israel from your map, the little horn would be heading south and west. But Daniel 8:9 says south and east.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn,

In Daniel 8:9 the little horn waxes strong to the south and east toward the pleasant land, Israel.

So there is a conflict between your map (of where the little horn comes from) and the directions given in Daniel 8:9. To get to Israel from your map, the little horn would be heading south and west. But Daniel 8:9 says south and east.

Hi Douggg,

I don`t see any discrepancy. The `little horn` comes from Iraq. He heads south, which is along the Gulf, and towards the east, Iran, and towards Israel - 3 directions as I see it.

`And out of one of these came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great towards the south, towards the east, and towards the Glorious land.` (Dan. 8: 9)

It is a growing of power over those 3 areas.
 
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Douggg

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Hi Douggg,

I don`t see any discrepancy. The `little horn` comes from Iraq. He heads south, which is along the Gulf, and towards the east, Iran, and towards Israel - 3 directions as I see it.

`And out of one of these came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great towards the south, towards the east, and towards the Glorious land.` (Dan. 8: 9)

It is a growing of power over those 3 areas.
Marilyn, I am not seeing anything about heading west in Daniel 8:9.
 
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Marilyn C

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Marilyn, I am not seeing anything about heading west in Daniel 8:9.

What version are you reading. Mine is the NKJ and it shows 3 areas -

1. towards the south,
2. towards the east,
3. towards the Glorious land, (west).

That is the `which grew exceedingly.` Showing the growth of his power in those areas.
 
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Douggg

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What version are you reading. Mine is the NKJ and it shows 3 areas -

1. towards the south,
2. towards the east,
3. towards the Glorious land, (west).

That is the `which grew exceedingly.` Showing the growth of his power in those areas.

The bible's way of saying "southeast" as one direction is that it says it in the two component directions of south, then east, instead of the one word "southeast" like we would say in our modern English.

You can do a "southeast" word search in the kjv - and it does not appear. Neither does northeast, southwest, northwest.

SOUTHEAST IN THE BIBLE
 
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3. towards the Glorious land, (west).

If you let scripture interpret itself, the "Glorious land" is the promised land of Canaan which the Israelites entered after their wilderness wanderings.

"On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:" (Ezekiel 20:6)

This "Glorious land" is not the West.
 
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Marilyn C

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If you let scripture interpret itself, the "Glorious land" is the promised land of Canaan which the Israelites entered after their wilderness wanderings.

"On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:" (Ezekiel 20:6)

This "Glorious land" is not the West.

However it is `West` of Iraq.
 
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Marilyn C

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The bible's way of saying "southeast" as one direction is that it says it in the two component directions of south, then east, instead of the one word "southeast" like we would say in our modern English.

You can do a "southeast" word search in the kjv - and it does not appear. Neither does northeast, southwest, northwest.

SOUTHEAST IN THE BIBLE

So what if God was saying that the A/C was developing power `towards the east, AND towards the South, AND towards the West,` then that was not possible to say as it would always be interpreted as `southeast.`
 
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