The light travel time problem

[setst777]

The word "Bara" includes a definition of "Re-Made". As you can see "Re-Made"
is fundamental to the creation story. Not to mention the parallel to Spiritual Re-Birth.

accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow,
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows) -- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.

God created the heavens and the earth.

To "create" means:

English to Greek Meaning :: creation
Creation: δημιουργία

Noun
(1) the human act of creating
(2) an artifact that has been brought into existence by someone
(3) the event that occurred at the beginning of something
(4) the act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new
(5) (theology everything that exists anywhere)
[Greek to English Meaning of creation - greek.english-dictionary.help]

Greek/Hebrew Definitions
Strong's #1254: bara' (pronounced baw-raw')

a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:

bârâ'
1) to create, shape, form
1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1a1) of heaven and earth
1a2) of individual man
1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
1a4) of transformations
1b) (Niphal) to be created
1b1) of heaven and earth
1b2) of birth
1b3) of something new
1b4) of miracles
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cut down
1c2) to cut out
2) to be fat
2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Part of Speech: verb
Relation: a primitive root

Usage: This word is used 54 times:

 

[SkyWriting]

God created the heavens and the earth.

To "create" means:

English to Greek Meaning :: creation
Creation: δημιουργία

Noun
(1) the human act of creating
(2) an artifact that has been brought into existence by someone
(3) the event that occurred at the beginning of something
(4) the act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new
(5) (theology everything that exists anywhere)
[Greek to English Meaning of creation - greek.english-dictionary.help]

created
בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

1 In the beginning God created (bā·rā) the heaven and the earth.
But I appreciate you looking. Keep seeking!

 

[setst777]

None of the scriptures use it as a noun.
But I appreciate you looking. Keep seeking!

Verb form.

Greek/Hebrew Definitions
Strong's #1254: bara' (pronounced baw-raw')

a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:

bârâ'
1) to create, shape, form
1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1a1) of heaven and earth
1a2) of individual man
1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
1a4) of transformations
1b) (Niphal) to be created
1b1) of heaven and earth
1b2) of birth
1b3) of something new
1b4) of miracles
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cut down
1c2) to cut out
2) to be fat
2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Part of Speech: verb
Relation: a primitive root

Nothing here about being re-made

Usage: This word is used 54 times:
Strongs's #1254: bara' - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

 

[SkyWriting]

Verb form.

Greek/Hebrew Definitions
Strong's #1254: bara' (pronounced baw-raw')

a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):-- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:

bârâ'
1) to create, shape, form
1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1a1) of heaven and earth
1a2) of individual man
1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
1a4) of transformations
1b) (Niphal) to be created
1b1) of heaven and earth
1b2) of birth
1b3) of something new
1b4) of miracles
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cut down
1c2) to cut out
2) to be fat
2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Part of Speech: verb
Relation: a primitive root

Nothing here about being re-made

Usage: This word is used 54 times:
Strongs's #1254: bara' - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

Mostly about being re-made

1) to create, shape, form
1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1a1) of heaven and earth
1a2) of individual man
1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
1a4) of transformations
1b) (Niphal) to be created
1b1) of heaven and earth
1b2) of birth
1b3) of something new
1b4) of miracles
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cut down
1c2) to cut out
2) to be fat
2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat


See Also "asah: do, make"

 

[setst777]

I never made either one of those statements.
But you imagine that I did.
But I didn't.

I simply noticed that nothing that is created is described as young.
But the mountains and hills are described as ancient and even everlasting.
And Adam was no baby either.

Here is what you wrote:

Creation is very ancient and old, possibly eternally old. Man was re-made from animals only recently. This resolves that problem.

 

[setst777]

Mostly about being re-made

1) to create, shape, form
1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1a1) of heaven and earth
1a2) of individual man
1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
1a4) of transformations
1b) (Niphal) to be created
1b1) of heaven and earth
1b2) of birth
1b3) of something new
1b4) of miracles
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cut down
1c2) to cut out
2) to be fat
2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Nothing about being remade in any of these definitions.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nothing about being remade in any of these definitions.

Just the red parts. Not so much the black parts.

The issue is, If I claim that the Bible "Creation" is 100% remaking of existing things, can you dispute it with scripture? I was unable to. Which is why I changed my view on Creation. The LAVA, the earths crust, seems to have cooled and even remelted. Gold, Diamonds, lots of things that take an eternity to create. And then diamonds take a LOT of time to reach the earth surface, where we find them.

 

[setst777]

Just the red parts. Not so much the black parts.

Yes, I read those. Nothing about being re-made.

The word re-made is to regenerate. Create or made is a first event.

Psalms 33:6–9 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast”

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him."

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, I read those. Nothing about being re-made.

They are all about remaking or modifying what exists. Asah specifically includes "Re-Make" in it's definition. I see you are hung up on "remake" but the concept of change is universal throughout all the uses of Create.
Even the disciples has years to change to become believers.
An ancient Cosmos solves the problem with light and distances and size and God's eternal nature with no beginning, and millions of other indicators of an everlasting Cosmos.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations; the ancient ...
When he looks, the nations tremble. He shatters the everlasting mountains and levels the eternal hills.

Deuteronomy 33:15
with the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

Genesis 49:26
The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills.

 

[setst777]

They are all about remaking or modifying what exists. Asah specifically includes "Re-Make" in it's definition. I see you are hung up on "remake" but the concept of change is universal throughout all the uses of Create.
Even the disciples has years to change to become believers.
An ancient Cosmos solves the problem with light and distances and size and God's eternal nature with no beginning, and millions of other indicators of an everlasting Cosmos.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations; the ancient ...
When he looks, the nations tremble. He shatters the everlasting mountains and levels the eternal hills.

Deuteronomy 33:15
with the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

Genesis 49:26
The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills.

???

What do any of these Passage have to do with God having created or made all things, and all living things to produce after its own kind???

You are the one hung up on "remake." The Greek makes clear that God having created or made all things are original creations by His Word and Spirit.

 

[coffee4u]

The definitions of the "Creation" words are 90% making changes to existing things.
Plus I grow gardens at home. I takes time before it it a paradise.
And Lava takes time to cool.

Geneses 1
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 2
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

So which one are you getting "man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them." ?


Plus I grow gardens at home. I takes time before it it a paradise.
What does you ability to grow a garden have to do with God?
So you are saying that God can't do things immediately? Like turning water into wine, he would need to sit and wait for it to age?
Except he did.

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.


8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
Doing things immediately is no issue to God.

He took water and made fine wine immediately.
A person making wine is another thing entirely. 5–10% of wine improves after 1 year, and 1% improves after 5–10 years. Very similar to the amount of work a garden might take, since fruit trees can take years to bare. Miracles do not follow natural law, they fly in the face of them.

Luckily God isn't us. It doesn't take him years to grow a garden into a paradise.

 

[tdidymas]

The past cannot be surmised by what we see in the present, because past conditions change from what they are today, and have changed all throughout time.

As well, science cannot tell us when the past event began to take place - it could have began millions of years ago, or only thousands of years ago.

In addition, when God created all things, including the stars to be as lights in the heaven as signs, it is not inconceivable to think God cannot also create the light from those stars to reach earth at the time He created them so as to accomplish His will for purpose of the stars.

You do realize your views on creation and evolution are your own thoughts based on what you were taught to believe. Your views are dangerous, because you are trying to read between the lines, and add to what you feel God meant in His Word to us, but what you are really doing is adding human wisdom to the words of the all wise, all knowing God who exists from all eternity. You are usurping the authority of God and His Word by your own human wisdom.

I'm merely pointing out the futility of holding to a 6k year old universe. I disagree that the past cannot be surmised by what we see in the present. I gave an example to show how it can. Scientists have been surmising the past for more than 2k years, and some of them are even believers in God!!

If the deeds of a person is conducive to the Christian life, then we can surmise that he is born again, which is a past event. If we see an area around a mountain that looks like cooled lava, we can surmise that the mountain was an active volcano in the past.

But how can you say past conditions change, unless you have surmised something about the past? The fact is, we can know something about God by observing the universe, which is what the apostle Paul states in Rom. 1.

 

[setst777]

I'm merely pointing out the futility of holding to a 6k year old universe. I disagree that the past cannot be surmised by what we see in the present. I gave an example to show how it can. Scientists have been surmising the past for more than 2k years, and some of them are even believers in God!!

If the deeds of a person is conducive to the Christian life, then we can surmise that he is born again, which is a past event. If we see an area around a mountain that looks like cooled lava, we can surmise that the mountain was an active volcano in the past.

But how can you say past conditions change, unless you have surmised something about the past? The fact is, we can know something about God by observing the universe, which is what the apostle Paul states in Rom. 1.

How about the Genesis Flood????

Genesis shows us that the past has changed drastically. In Genesis we learn that, before the flood, the earth was watered by springs, there was no rain. During and in the aftermath of the flood, climactic changes occurred over thousands of years as the earth adjusted = just as we see in the fossil record and archeology.

Present day examples you gave of the past determining the present or future in recent time cannot surmise something that you do not know happened thousands of years ago.

Changes in radiation, gravity, major environmental changes, including many asteroids that enter our atmosphere every year, means that we cannot take for granted and surmise that everything happens just as it did 2000 years ago or more.

Considering radiation: Scientists are well aware of the fact that radiometric dating becomes ever more flawed the further the time is involved, and the results are open to interpretation of the one using the data. Results can be off by hundreds of thousands or millions of years based on who is interpreting the data.

I can surmise, based on my belief in God's Word, that God created all things by His Word and Spirit about 7,000 years ago. All Scriptural evidence reveals that God spoke all things into existence quickly, all things being created in six days. That would mean that everything created at that time was as it was and begin its decaying process to the present day, taking into account all environmental factors. If so, then how we date things must take into account that supposition.

You can surmise, based on your belief in an earth that may be billions of years old, that everything must be dated as if all things continued to happen as they did billions of years ago - all things continuing to occur just as they did at that time. You can surmise that this is all in line with God's Holy Word, even though no such Scriptural evidence exists.

I will take God at His Word. If I Am wrong, I have nothing to lose, but much to gain.

Genesis 2:3 (NIV)
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:11 (NIV)
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:17 (NIV)
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Isaiah 45:11-12 (NIV)
11 “This is what the Lord says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 48:12-13 (NIV)
12 “Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called:
I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Psalms 33:6-9 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast”

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him."

Blessings.

 

[SkyWriting]

Geneses 1
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 2
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

So which one are you getting "man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them." ?


Plus I grow gardens at home. I takes time before it it a paradise.
What does you ability to grow a garden have to do with God?
So you are saying that God can't do things immediately? Like turning water into wine, he would need to sit and wait for it to age?
Except he did.

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.


8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
Doing things immediately is no issue to God.

He took water and made fine wine immediately.
A person making wine is another thing entirely. 5–10% of wine improves after 1 year, and 1% improves after 5–10 years. Very similar to the amount of work a garden might take, since fruit trees can take years to bare. Miracles do not follow natural law, they fly in the face of them.

Luckily God isn't us. It doesn't take him years to grow a garden into a paradise.

Every one of your examples involve transformation/modification/changing of existing material. As I mentioned.

Example

Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our


aw-saw' Verb
Definition

1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make
   1. (Qal)
      1. to do, work, make, produce 1a
   2. to do 1a
   3. to work 1a
   4. to deal (with) 1a
   5. to act, act with effect, effect
      1. to make 1a
   6. to make 1a
   7. to produce 1a
   8. to prepare 1a
   9. to make (an offering) 1a
   10. to attend to, put in order 1a
   11. to observe, celebrate 1a
   12. to acquire (property) 1a
   13. to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
   14. to bring about 1a
   15. to use 1a
   16. to spend, pass
   17. (Niphal)
       1. to be done
       2. to be made
       3. to be produced
       4. to be offered
       5. to be observed
       6. to be used
   18. (Pual) to be made
2. (Piel) to press, squeeze

 

[setst777]

But how can you say past conditions change, unless you have surmised something about the past?

Regarding the fossil record...
Besides the Bible recording the world cataclysmic flood, the fossil record reveals quick burial, as fossils of most organic matter must be buried under the right conditions quickly to prevent decay and scavenging. The fossil record and archeology also shows us the cataclysmic events that occurred. We can surmise the time it happened, but the world wide distribution of fossils in all layers of rock, with common examples of fossils straddling layers, would indicate a catastrophic world flood, the sediment gradually falling to the earth as the waters receded after the flooding, and then turning into stone as time progressed, capturing fossil images of quick burial.

This is a general view, even though, after the flood, the climate continued to adjust, and many hurricanes, volcanoes, winds, glaciers, and such helped shape the still soft sediment, molding it into the many formations we see today, hardening into rock as time continued. The cataclysmic flood is recorded in Bible, if you doubt that it ever happened, unless you do not believe the Bible is God's Word?

 

[setst777]

Every one of your examples involve transformation/modification/changing of existing material.

In the beginning, the work of creation was by the Word and Spirit of God. Before that time space was empty and void.

When God created man from the dust of the earth, man was created is an original creation instantaneously, not a modification of a previous animal or humanoid.

 

[SkyWriting]

In the beginning, the work of creation was by the Word and Spirit of God. Before that time space was empty and void.

When God created man from the dust of the earth, man was created is an original creation instantaneously, not a modification of a previous animal or humanoid.

I assume you can find "instantaneously" where it doesn't exist then?
Because the idea doesn't even exist anywhere in scripture.

created
בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Strong's Hebrew: 6213.

 

[SkyWriting]

In the beginning, the work of creation was by the Word and Spirit of God. Before that time space was empty and void.

You are mis-quoting scripture.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

 

[SkyWriting]

When God created man from the dust of the earth, man was created is an original creation instantaneously, not a modification of a previous animal or humanoid.

Adams children mated with others who already existed.
Adam was the first person to be remade into God's image and able to see his sin.
He was the first to wear clothes because he was ashamed.

 

[setst777]

I assume you can find "instantaneously" where it doesn't exist then?
Because the idea doesn't even exist anywhere in scripture.

Genesis 2:7 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

created
בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Strong's Hebrew: 6213.

Created does not mean re-make. Try as you may, that is not what created means. Man re-makes things, but only God created. That is what separates God from the things He created.