The light travel time problem

Job 33:6 · Jun 20, 2021

tdidymas said:
Yes, the article in the link I posted addressed that, and it's nonsense. Light is proven to take time to travel A to B.

I would also add that it's not just light that is observed travelling from point A to B in supernovas, but also galaxies themselves appear to have travelled hundreds of thousands of light years as well.

It really comes down to the following options:

A. You trust what you see with your eyes, and you conclude that scripture is not literally true (though perhaps metaphorically true). Or;

B. You trust in a literal reading of Genesis and you will never feel content with why what you see with your eyes appears to suggest otherwise.

Personally I believe that option A is the better choice.

AV1611VET · Jun 20, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
I would be doubtful that God would allow the game to play out on earth in full view of the rest of the universe, and then go blowing up the homes of protesting angels to stop them also joining satan's campaign.

God blew up the homes of protesting angels after they joined Satan.

God didn't blow up their homes to prevent them from joining.

AdamjEdgar · Jun 20, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
We know this how???

already explained...re read the post...alternatively, read Genesis 3:22

AdamjEdgar · Jun 20, 2021

AV1611VET said:
God blew up the homes of protesting angels after they joined Satan.

God didn't blow up their homes to prevent them from joining.

hmmm...and interesting theory. I am going to have to think about this, it certainly might be a viable solution to the existence of supernovas. Good outside the box thinking.

AV1611VET · Jun 20, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
A. You trust what you see with your eyes, and you conclude that scripture is not literally true (though perhaps metaphorically true).

The mistake astronomers make is assuming "big" is "old."

In other words, they think that the bigger the universe is, the older it is.

But Adam could look up in the sky and see Orion, a constellation 1344 light years away; and yet Adam was created only two days after Orion was.

Job 33:6 · Jun 20, 2021

AV1611VET said:
The mistake astronomers make is assuming "big" is "old."

In other words, they think that the bigger the universe is, the older it is.

But Adam could look up in the sky and see Orion, a constellation 1344 light years away; and yet Adam was created only two days after Orion was.

I tend to go with astronomers on this one. In that Orion would have predated Adam by millions of years.

AdamjEdgar · Jun 20, 2021

Could i also add the following verse that i believe also sheds some Biblical perspective on this issue...

Isaiah 40:26
26Lift up your eyes on high:

Who created all these?

He leads forth the starry host by number;

He calls each one by name.

Because of His great power and mighty strength,

not one of them is missing.

AV1611VET · Jun 20, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
I tend to go with astronomers on this one. In that Orion would have predated Adam by millions of years.

That's certainly your prerogative.

Mark Quayle · Jun 20, 2021

tdidymas said:
Analogy: I see a house that has peeling paint, roof damage, and other things that indicate it has a 20 year or more history. But you tell me it was built last year. What do you think I'm going to believe?

If God told you it was built last year, who would you believe?

AdamjEdgar · Jun 20, 2021

Sophrosyne said:
If God can create stars by the trillions and beyond numbers imaginable could he not create photons everywhere in the universe that look like streams from each star? In other words (I'm not a YEC) it is quite possible to create things to the light from them is already there the instant they are created and has not necessarily been traveling for billions of years to get here if the earth is 6k to 10k years old then the light created 10k years ago will be that far along from the star while the light that was 10k years away created then will arrive. One also has to realize that Adam and Eve spent an undetermined time in the garden and likely time didn't start till they sinned there was no need to consider how long things have been going when they are still immortal. It is possible the garden was located in another dimension or they were there for a million years as when you are fellowshipping with God constantly time can pass like it does in his domain a day is 1000 years with God if Adam was in the garden alone for 1000 years then with God it could be 1 million years and when Eve was made they could have been together for another 1000 years in God's time. The Bible also doesn't take into account that when the universe was created time for it had to also be created and I doubt even the most smartest man we have can tell you how to create time and what happens to it when it "starts" Does time accelerate light from 0 to 186k miles per second on light or does it take longer or shorter? As you are creating time if you aren't in a world that has finished time that have been totally created or is it in progress. In other words it is possible time at the start of the universe was not constant as in the Bible we see in a place God may have actually stopped time for parts of the universe when the sun stood still. As God is the author of the laws of the universe which he created those laws may not have all sprung into existed in what we consider zero time (instant).

Many people assume God and the unvierse have to obey the laws of it as we know it but if God can live outside of the universe and interact with it then logic could reason he is not subject to the laws if he desires not to.

I like this view, however, the problem i have is not time...it is why in a perfect universe the destruction of a supernova occurs in the first place!

Second, if God in Isaiah 40:26 (cross references genesis 15:5, Psalm 147:4) says "i know each star by name... and none are missing"...how do we have supernovas blowing up and for want of a better term "going missing"?

Sophrosyne · Jun 20, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
I like this view, however, the problem i have is not time...it is why in a perfect universe the destruction of a supernova occurs in the first place!

Second, if God in Isaiah 40:26 (cross references genesis 15:5, Psalm 147:4) says "i know each star by name... and none are missing"...how do we have supernovas blowing up and for want of a better term "going missing"?

You forget God created the universe knowing Adam would sin and cause it to be corrupted and that stars don't have infinite energy so having the die so that man could one day see that even the stars die and the only thing eternal is God.

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

miamited said:
Hi tdidymas,

Well, do you believe God's account of the creation?

Yes, I do, but not in the way you understand it (I'm going off your previous response). Scripture is inspired of God, but since we don't speak His language, He accommodates us in our language. Moses didn't have the benefit of the last 500 years of astronomical knowledge, so he wrote it in the way he understood it, according to his education in Egypt. It was not dictated word-for-word from God. Only those passages that say "The Lord said..." were dictated, such as the "10 commandments," and even in that there is some detail difference between Ex. 20 and Deu. 5. So we can see that it wasn't a dictation. I think it is reasonable to understand that Moses was countering the ancient near-east myths about the origin of the world, and the format is similar, according to respected scholars in the field.

My answer to your question: No. I've never considered God, or anyone for that matter, being able to create history, unless we're talking about the holocaust deniers and the moon landing deniers who just want to deny history as recorded, is really history as it unfolded. I mean history, is the collection of facts that actually surrounded a time or event in the past. Now, people can, as I say make up a fake history, but that's not 'creating a history of something instantaneously'. That's creating a fictitious account.

God bless,
Ted

Exactly. God didn't create a fictitious account of a supernova event 10B light years away. Therefore, there is something wrong with the story that people are saying that the universe was created 6K years ago. It's not a matter of science or faith, but rather a matter of interpretation of the text. Would you agree with that?

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Oh dear oh dear oh dear...that is so very wrong. You are basing your belief on a misunderstanding of the doctrine of sin.
Our efforts to save ourselves are nothing but filthy rags. Your view that Satan has no control over non sinners is absolutely false. Jesus never sinned...not even a single time...Satan murdered him! The irony of this event was that the very people who had studied the gospel of the Old testament now believed that because Jesus died, he must not be the Messiah!
Satan absolutely has control of thoughts and interpretations...and this most definately does extend out into the universe (read the story of job)

Im sorry but what you said it a complete fallacy.

Edit...re the statement "where does the Bible say the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is on other worlds" are you not able to deduce from the story of job any reason why that tree was not also on other worlds God created?
The fact Satan is visiting the council containing other world members in the story of Job is evidence to support the belief that tree is also on other planets...as is the tree of life!
How do we know about the tree of life...read what God said in Genesis when he placed an angel at the entry to the garden of Eden after expelling Adam and Eve. ("Lest man eat of the tree and live forever")

I'm not going to argue with you about your speculations about sin and such. Either stick to the OP subject matter, or I'll not converse with you.

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

Freth said:
Genesis 1:21-22 seems to indicate that God had to have created all living things as mature/adults (like Adam and Eve were), because He told them to be fruitful and multiply right after being created. This shows that God created all things with a specific age from the outset.

I wonder if you really understand the question. There is a difference between: (1)God miraculously creating everything in working order, and (2) God creating a fictitious history.

Do you understand the difference in regard to my OP?

Further evidence: The sun didn't go through the long process to become the star it is today. The moon didn't form from natural processes. Both were created and placed with intent and purpose. Jupiter, for instance, acts like a vacuum cleaner, sucking up space debris. It was placed there with intent and purpose.

And here your bias is starting to show up. I never said the sun and moon went through a natural evolution of development, as you apparently think my question implies. Let's not get off track here. Please try to understand my point.

Celestial observations were foretold by scripture.

In the creation account:

Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

In the end time:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring.

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Conclusion:

God created all things with a certain age, according to His purpose.

God designed that stars would give signs at given points in time, to further His purpose.

Your concluding statements don't address my question. Can you discern the difference?

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
There is an error with your view on measuring the speed of light...we can only measure it in a single direction. It is not possible to place a synchronised measuring device on the other side of the universe to check that the return speed of light is identical to the sent speed of light. You assume that the universe is empty and without gravity. That is a big big problem...although not an argument I need to use. My argument has already been stated, not countered with any facts and so it does not need repeating at this point

I wonder if you understand the issue, since you claim I assume something completely bogus. But your idea that "we can only measure it in a single direction" is bogus. You may do well to read this article:
Solving the Light Travel Time Problem
Dr. Faulkner acknowledges that light speed CANNOT be measured in one direction. And in fact, light speed is actually measured in two directions or more by using mirrors.

From where I'm looking, you're the one in error.

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Is that why you asked this?Do you have a better answer?

I gave my answer in the OP. I'm merely inviting people to prove me wrong, even though I know it has yet to be done by any Creationist scholar I've read so far.

miamited · Jun 21, 2021

tdidymas said:
Yes, I do, but not in the way you understand it (I'm going off your previous response). Scripture is inspired of God, but since we don't speak His language, He accommodates us in our language. Moses didn't have the benefit of the last 500 years of astronomical knowledge, so he wrote it in the way he understood it, according to his education in Egypt. It was not dictated word-for-word from God. Only those passages that say "The Lord said..." were dictated, such as the "10 commandments," and even in that there is some detail difference between Ex. 20 and Deu. 5. So we can see that it wasn't a dictation. I think it is reasonable to understand that Moses was countering the ancient near-east myths about the origin of the world, and the format is similar, according to respected scholars in the field.

Exactly. God didn't create a fictitious account of a supernova event 10B light years away. Therefore, there is something wrong with the story that people are saying that the universe was created 6K years ago. It's not a matter of science or faith, but rather a matter of interpretation of the text. Would you agree with that?

@tdidymas

No.

God bless, Ted

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
I would also add that it's not just light that is observed travelling from point A to B in supernovas, but also galaxies themselves appear to have travelled hundreds of thousands of light years as well.

It really comes down to the following options:

A. You trust what you see with your eyes, and you conclude that scripture is not literally true (though perhaps metaphorically true). Or;

B. You trust in a literal reading of Genesis and you will never feel content with why what you see with your eyes appears to suggest otherwise.

Personally I believe that option A is the better choice.

In a way, I go for option A, although I don't necessarily think that Moses meant for it to be metaphorical or allegorical. Since most of the Bible is not a dictation, and I don't believe most of what Moses wrote was dictated, he as a fallible human being wrote according to his understanding. So if Gen. 1 is wrong scientifically, it doesn't mean that it is not inspired scripture. It was not meant to be a scientific textbook on how God literally created the world, but rather a religious account that the only true God created it.

I also don't conclude that scripture in general is not literally true. There are simply some parts of it that we have to conclude are not literal, because of the way we understand things. Certainly we don't believe that when it pours down raining, that angels in heaven are tipping over water jars.

tdidymas · Jun 21, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
If God told you it was built last year, who would you believe?

If you told me that God said it was built last year, I wouldn't believe you. And I also might not believe a word you said after that.

So, do you even understand my point? Do you understand that there is a difference between: (1) calculating the number of years of the existence of man from a historical narrative, and surmising that the universe was created at that time, and (2) observing historical events, and surmising that the universe was created long before the event happened?

If we see a cosmological event of something we measure as 10B light years away, then why wouldn't you assume that the universe existed as a stable universe longer than 10B years? God does not create fictitious events, does He?

Bobber · Jun 21, 2021

tdidymas said:
I have a question for Young Universe Creationists who claim a literal interpretation of Gen. 1. But first, I should let everyone know, I am not a theistic evolutionist, I do not agree with Darwin's theory, and I do not believe that man existed on earth for more than 6k years. So please do not assume things of me that aren't true.

On the Star light travel time.....don't know....that is where a scripture could actually be given to prove something.

I did see one writing which suggested on Day 4 God created two sections....The Earth which on Day 4 he froze up and suspended Earth time. Then he created the stars, galaxies etc but had them move in regular time. Earth time thus froze up and suspended for billions of years....Once starlight came to Earth he started the Earth time clock again. Everything in Earth time still would have had the reality that only 4 days had passed.

Not claiming that's what happened. One being God though who decides the laws of physics to be whatever he wants and how they're applied.....why would there be a problem with this? Everything, everything, everything can be suspended at his will....with Joshua he stopped rotations and movements of planets when Joshua declared it so with God's approval. Yes some science people might have a belly laugh at that.....doesn't matter. God does what he does and never seeks men's approval or opinion on what's possible.

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