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The light of evolution: What would be lost

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whois

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See, this is where you're wrong, and where evolution is phenomenally useful. Without common ancestry, there is no reason to believe that, say, medical experiments on mice would have any analogy to medical research on humans.
this is where YOU are wrong.
comparative anatomy can reveal similarities/differences between animals.
metabolism and other such tests can reveal compatibility without ever relying on evolution or common descent.
Do you know what "The light of evolution" in the title is referencing?
yes, you are trying to portray evolution as some kind of "unifying" theory and it isn't "all that".

i believe maynard smith said it best when he said there is no theory nor empiracal evidence for the 8 major transitions in evolution, nor is there any reason to expect them.

i've presented a peer reviewed paper where it states that species trees and gene trees do not match up.
no one offered any reason why that is.

koonin has pointed out that the origin of life research is a failure.
apparently what makes sense is totally senseless.

what can we make of all of this?
 
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crjmurray

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Where? Claiming someone said something they never said should be bannable offense. I have said I have no idea who he is nor do I care and that someone saying they are someone on an internet forum is meaningless. Never ever said he was or was not who he claimed to be. As it turned out it means nothing anyway because like it or not the paper he pointed to once I found it to read does not live up to his attempt to present it as evidence for what was claimed. Classic bait and switch

Meanwhile the logic you are trying to invoke is ridiculous nonsense.. What? we are now going to go around calling to verify who everyone is by phone on an internet forum. LOL.....

Anyway Nice try and trying to set up mod action because you don't like your comrade being shown to be in error but I said nothing aobut anyone lying

If you weren't implying that he was lying and the matter is not important then I don't understand why you brought it up. My point was that if you want to throw a fit over someone claiming to be someone, it would make sense to follow up and verify their identity. If not, then the matter should be dropped.
 
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MikeEnders

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If you weren't implying that he was lying and the matter is not important then I don't understand why you brought it up.

I didn't bring up his identity. So you can stop pretending I did. SFS brought up his own identity as a point. If you bring up a point then it is open for discussion. Live with it. Thats how discussions work. I didn't introduce anything about who any one was or was not . You can beg until tomorrow. It will do you no good. We are on an internet forum and NO ONE is required to accept or deny who anyone claims to be. Move along to a good point now
 
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MikeEnders

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this is where YOU are wrong.
comparative anatomy can reveal similarities/differences between animals.
metabolism and other such tests can reveal compatibility without ever relying on evolution or common descent.

WHois obviously you are right on that. he is trying desperately against all logic to claim that without common ancestry we would never study other animals to learn from them how our own biology works. Apparently they are completely oblivious that comparative anatomy was done long before Darwin.''

Ho Hum and they are always talking about creationists being ignorant.
 
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sfs

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Wow. You are supposedly a scientist and can't think something so simple through?????? Let me see if I walk you through this slowly.

Okay I take that 30 seconds to verify the email is legit and I find out the right name is associated with it. Greeaaat!!. Now Please tell the class how that verifies that the person behind the SFS account at CF is in fact the same person?? I've explained this to you before and you STILL can't get it.
?? The 30 seconds wasn't to verify the email address; the 30 seconds was to write to me at that address. Just ask if the guy at the address is also the one on this thread. That's what email addresses are for, after all: emailing. Sheesh.
 
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sfs

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Thanks for the admission and it only makes my point stronger. It isn't about breakthrough in treating cholera, It didn't isolate and tell us the genes to target.It gives no workable data to finding a cure or treatment. Its more about using natural selection than anything else and it doesn't demonstrate any practical thing that would be lost without macroevolution theory because in the end we will still have to do the very same larger study not on chimpanzees but on modern humans to get the answer we need that I said from the start and you tried to handwave away from.
Despite your dismissiveness, the paper does find potentially important results, and do so based on the presence of natural selection. Here's the logical process, using quotations from the paper:

"We identified 305 candidate selected regions using the Composite of Multiple Signals (CMS) method."

"We previously developed the Composite of Multiple Signals (CMS) method to pinpoint regions of positive selection in the genome with more power and specificity than any single test(23, 24). Here, we used CMS to identify targets of positive selection in a population from the Ganges River Delta, and then searched for association with cholera resistance among the identified targets."

"The CMS test combines three indicators of positive selection – long haplotypes, high-frequency derived alleles, and highly differentiated alleles – to identify narrow candidate regions." (That's where the need for knowing the derived allele comes in.)

"We looked for evidence of enrichment in the 305 selected regions in the BEB population using INRICH, a permutation-based genome-wide analysis tool "

"One gene set was significantly enriched in the BEB population - a module of genes in the expression neighborhood of IKBKG. . . IKBKG encodes the protein NEMO (IKK-γ), a subunit of the IκB kinase that activates canonical signaling of nuclear factor (NF)-κB." (There's a biological finding, based on the natural selection results.)

[The selection results were then confirmed with a small association study of the 305 regions.]

"To further investigate this, we evaluated the effect of cholera toxin on inflammasome activation in mouse macrophages in vitro and found that it induced robust IL-1β secretion in LPS-primed mouse macrophages."

"We developed a model of the human innate immune signaling pathways that respond to V. cholerae infection and have been selected in the BEB population (fig. 5). In this model, inflammasome activation and the NF-kB signaling pathway play an integrated role in TLR4-mediated sensing of V. cholerae."

"We found the most significant overlap of our selection and cholera association data near the novel gene SNRNP200, which encodes a previously uncharacterized RNA splicing, ATP-dependent helicase shown to bind caspase-4(50). The murine homolog of caspase-4, caspase-11, is a key regulator of caspase-1 activation in response to Gram negative bacteria, including V. cholerae, and subsequent inflammasome activation(47)."

"The NF-κB signaling pathway we identified as under selection in the BEB population modulates gut epithelial integrity and the interaction between the mucosal immune system and gut microflora(58). . . We noted a significant overlap between genes that are highly selected in the BEB population and loci that are strongly associated ... with an increased risk of ulcerative colitis... Thus, pathways under selection in the BEB population, and potentially involved in susceptibility to mucosal infection with V. cholerae, may also be relevant to understanding a common autoimmune disease occurring at the mucosal surface."

No, the paper does not tell you how to cure cholera. But it does provide an important piece of evidence that variation in the innate immune system, and specifically in the genes that activate the NF-kB pathway, affects how humans respond to cholera-causing bacteria. That's good for better understanding what makes cholera pathogenic, and might provide a clue for developing therapies. It also provides information about the function of a previously uncharacterized gene, and suggests a reason that south Asian populations have higher rates of inflammatory bowel disease than some other populations. These are all new pieces of information which contribute to the larger goal of understanding and improving human health.

In addition to everything else you must have no idea of what the word practical means. Its YOUR claim that is wrong. IF another wider and larger study focusing on modern humans has to be done to get a practical treatment for cholera than only in your dreams can you present this paper as a practical application that would be lost if we do not adhere to macroevolution.
But the larger, genome-wide study in humans of cholera is only going to happen because this preliminary study showed this was an area likely to yield results. Again, that's how real science works: you do a small study, find promising leads, and follow up with a larger study. And then more studies after that, and still more. If this stuff were easy, we'd already know the answers.
 
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whois

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WHois obviously you are right on that. he is trying desperately against all logic to claim that without common ancestry we would never study other animals to learn from them how our own biology works. Apparently they are completely oblivious that comparative anatomy was done long before Darwin.''

Ho Hum and they are always talking about creationists being ignorant.
the major problem i have with people like the cadet is that they staunchly support evolution and ignore evidence that says "hey, something isn't quite right here."
like the quote from niles eldridge that says we have very few, if any, transitional fossils.
this quote was published in the new york times and the article was written by an evolutionist.
the nonsense surrounding ayala is another.
when someone brings this stuff up they are invariably labeled as a creationists or they are loathed, and koonin for one understands that.
 
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MikeEnders

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?? The 30 seconds wasn't to verify the email address; the 30 seconds was to write to me at that address. Just ask if the guy at the address is also the one on this thread. That's what email addresses are for, after all: emailing. Sheesh.

Your logic just gets more and more ridiculous. who finds an email address verifies it actually belongs to a person and writes an email in 30 seconds. Get a stop watch and put up a youtube video and I'll get the popcorn and watch. Shucks I might even skip the fireworks later for the spectacle. Just stop handwaving and begging for how I should spend my time. I was proven right. It wasn't worth my time because Its immaterial. the paper shows nothing of what you claimed - a practical application that would be lost if macroevolution was not adhered to. Game over.

Sheesh indeed
 
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MikeEnders

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Despite your dismissiveness, the paper does find potentially important results,

Great so since the claim was there was something practical lost without macroevolution then in your next long wall of text post - 70% of which was quoting what i already read- you can get to that (of course we know you can't because you have already conceded that a larger study will be needed for that not using macroevolution but comparing Modern human data not chimpanzee)

No, the paper does not tell you how to cure cholera. But it does provide an important piece of evidence that variation in the innate immune system, and specifically in the genes that activate the NF-kB pathway, affects how humans respond to cholera-causing bacteria.

Thats the other beautiful thing you didn't tell the class. A great deal of what was identified to possibly be involved were related to what we already knew affected several disease processes. See thats the problem with you and perhaps why you are on this site is because you assume no creationist can read a paper. You spend so much time trying to tell me who you are and you have no clue of who I am or what I know or don't know

That's good for better understanding what makes cholera pathogenic, and might provide a clue for developing therapies

What will provide a therapy has already been let out of the bag by the lead researchers. what creationist would call a microevolution study of modern humans to modern human. At this point you are just hand waving to avoid what that does to your argument of what would be lost without macroevolution.

But the larger, genome-wide study in humans of cholera is only going to happen because this preliminary study showed this was an area likely to yield results. .

Again a wow moment..coming from someone who is supposed to be able to think objectively. Yes of course we would never ever do larger genome studies in humans to save the lives of people dying from cholera. NO one in the world has ever thought that wider studies of the human genome could do such a thing in studying diseases before this study.

In a word...well lets make it two - absolutely ridiculous.

P.S. no one said it was easy. please put away the straw, The scarecrow is getting too fat. He is looking more like Santa Claus.
 
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bhsmte

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What would you know of anyone's life expectancy? You are just chock full of assumptions like you know anything about people you don't know. Intelligent people research their own doctors, their medicines and question. Research has shown those patients do a lot better who participate in their own treatment and ask questions rather than just "ummm...errr....well he is the doctor so". By your argument you are the one to have a shorter life expectancy because apparently the first Neuro surgeon you meet will be your guy because well "he's a neurosurgeon!"

Do you chose all of you doctors based on the fact they are biblical creationists?
 
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MikeEnders

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the major problem i have with people like the cadet is that they staunchly support evolution and ignore evidence that says "hey, something isn't quite right here."
.

Because of confirmation bias. Here's one of the most deceptivily intoxicating things for Darwinists in the debate with Creationists particularly Biblical creationists. Most of them that I have encountered actually believe that they don't have an assumption filter. They believe only the creationists are prone to that. Some of the atheists among them are even known to say that they have NO belief system - none whatsoever (an irrational impossible for humans claim).

IF you think about it believing you have no assumptions and are not prone like mortal humans to confirmation bias only makes your confirmation bias STRONGER. You don't have to check your assumptions because well your claim is you have none.

Look at the ridiculous nonsense about common descent being necessary for us to assume an analogy to other species that would cause us to study how their anatomy works to get clues as to our own. Its point blank DIRECTLY contradicted by the historical reality that comparative anatomy for just that purpose precedes Darwin's conceptualization of common descent.

Facts don't matter because these people swear they have all creationists pegged and whatever they say creationists claim is factual and has nothing to do with their own assumptions as ridiculous and illogical as they are
 
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whois

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Because of confirmation bias.
maybe.
you have to admit that god, ID, or whatever, doesn't have much in the way of verification.
frankly i find the concept absurd, but on the other hand there are tantalizing aspects of biological evolution that points to that very thing.
i try to keep an open mind about it all.
people like the cadet can't even entertain the idea for some reason.
 
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MikeEnders

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you have to admit that god, ID, or whatever, doesn't have much in the way of verification.

Actually No I don't. When even the likes of Richard Dawkins can admit that life has the look of being designed why int he world does anyone have to deny ID or state it doesn't have much in the way of verification?

Now if you buy into the explanation of what looks designed as being designoids as he claims then I suppose you can deny the "verification" but why exactly does anyone need to buy into that. ID has as much going for it as anything. Even some people who accept darwinism accept ID.

The evidence is rather overwhelming that we live in an ordered logical world. Theres good scientific reasons to believe the universe operates on information. SO there is plenty in the way of verification for ID.
 
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bhsmte

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Actually No I don't. When even the likes of Richard Dawkins can admit that life has the look of being designed why int he world does anyone have to deny ID or state it doesn't have much in the way of verification?

Now if you buy into the explanation of what looks designed as being designoids as he claims then I suppose you can deny the "verification" but why exactly does anyone need to buy into that. ID has as much going for it as anything. Even some people who accept darwinism accept ID.

The evidence is rather overwhelming that we live in an ordered logical world. Theres good scientific reasons to believe the universe operates on information. SO there is plenty in the way of verification for ID.

Can you give us a useful definition of what ID is?

Can you provide a test that can identify whether ID is present, that is reliable and falsifiable?
 
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James Is Back

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Mod Hat On

Thread closed permanently due to flaming/goading and the fact you guys didn't listen to my last Mod Hat and continued on flaming each other so because of that this thread is closed for good.

Mod Hat Off
 
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