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The lesson of Geocentrism

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Vance

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In another thread, Buck pointed out that he is not a geocentrist because the Scripture does not teach geocentrism, and he is right. But the point of the whole story is that the Christian community of the time *believed* that the Scripture taught geocentrism, and they were wrong. This is the lesson we must learn for the current debate.

Before Galileo began promoting the heliocentric view of the universe, the Church believed that the sun and stars, the entire universe in fact, revolved around the earth. This was based, they believed, on a simple, plain reading of Scripture. The entire scheme of Genesis 1 made it clear: the earth was there at the very beginning and the rest of the universe was built around it. The sun and moon were "greater and lesser lights" *for the earth*, the stars part of the firmament over the earth. The earth played the central role, it was the location of God’s special creation, Man, and everything they read conformed to the idea of the earth being at the physical and literal center of things, with all else revolving around it. And there were other Scripture throughout the Bible which backed this up.

Also, their own eyes could see the geocentric nature of their world. They were in one spot and everything revolved around them. Why go out and seek for these convoluted theories to describe something when both the Scripture and their own eyes made it clear that geocentrism was true? It must be admitted that *without* our current knowledge of the universe, if we placed ourselves back in their position, we would read the Scripture the same way.

When Galileo began presenting the heliocentric theory, the Christian community, both Catholic and Protestant, said it was contrary to Scripture and, therefore, must be false. In fact, they went so far as to say that if Geocentrism were true, the Scripture was not true. They were entirely incompatible. And, if those Scriptures which they believed established Geocentrism were proven "false" then what about the rest of Scripture? Where would it end? And theologically: Galileo was pointing out that the sun was one star among countless others, and the earth was one planet among countless others. The Earth was just one of those specks in the universe. This was all too much, it just could not be true. If the Earth was not the physical center and focal point of the universe, then what does that say about God’s special creation of Man? Where does that leave us? No, you could not be a Heliocentrist AND a truly be a Christian. Galileo was a heretic.

The Christian community also called on the support of scientists who, up to the time Galileo presented heliocentrism, also believed in geocentrism. They were all Christian, of course, and without any real evidence to the contrary, also accepted the Biblical and observable evidence for geocentrism. Galileo’s theory was simply that, an unproven theory.

Eventually, the proof began rolling in and more and more scientists began accepting that it must be true. But many in the Church held out, saying that those who were accepting heliocentrism were simply selling out, accepting the scientific conclusions of men over God’s Word. Still, more and more Christians began accepting this scientific conclusion, and found that, after all, it did NOT destroy Christianity, it did NOT mean that the Bible could not be trusted, it need not affect anyone’s faith in the least.

They realized that it had been the Church’s traditional interpretation of Scripture which had been incorrect all along, and that the scientific theory which had SEEMED to contradict God’s Word really did not. Almost the entire Christian community did as we do today in regards to geocentrism: we allow the evidence of God’s Creation to inform our interpretation of God’s written Word.

But there were still hold-outs even deep into this century. I remember reading tracts written in the mid-sixties which said that the world had been duped by an unproven scientific theory which was still contrary to a plain reading of Scripture. This seemed to pretty much peter out, though, when we got to the moon.

I think that in one hundred years, if Jesus tarries, we will look back on the current debate regarding evolution and an old earth just as we now look back on the geocentrism fiasco. The Church will realize that it was it’s own traditional reading of Scripture which was incorrect, and allow the evidence of God’s Creation inform it’s interpretation of Scripture. Most already do. This does not mean, of course, that the concepts of evolution itself will not continue to be fine-tuned and we will know a lot more about how it all works together. Just as Galileo had some things wrong with his concept of heliocentrism, there are still some areas to clarify and fight over regarding the particulars of exactly how God used evolutionary processes in His Creative process.
 
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Vance

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We are not even at the center of our own galaxy. But as for the universe, with it going off infinitely in all directions, there is no center. Further, even though this was a disturbing implication for the Church, I am not sure Galileo ever asserted that the Earth could not still be at the center of the universe.

The more important point, though, is that we know that the sun, moon and stars are not in orbit around the earth, which was taught as the literal and absolute reading of Scripture at the time of the controversy.

Now we know that some of the verses can be read to be based on the perspective of Man. From our viewpoint, the Sun does revolve around the earth. But this solution, which means that the scientific explanation AND Scripture can both be correct, was not what the Church wanted to hear at the time. They saw the heliocentric model as simply a refutation of Scripture with a LOT of dangerous implications. And, of course, they were dead wrong.
 
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Blueberry Sponge

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Vance said:
But as for the universe, with it going off infinitely in all directions, there is no center.

By going off infinitely in all directions do you mean 'always expanding'? If so, then it would still have a center at any given point in time. It seems to me that if we can't locate it's outer boundary then we can't conclude that the earth isn't always in it's center at every given point in time. I'm not claiming it is but I don't think anyone can conclude it isn't either.
 
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Vance

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Oh, sure, we might be at the center of the known universe (although that might be difficult since we are not at the center of our own galaxy), and someone more familiar with astronomy could answer that. But the real issue that was fought about was whether the universe rotated around the earth, rather than the earth rotating around the sun.
 
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Blueberry Sponge

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I wonder if that's possible; that the sun & the other planets might actually be revolving around the earth. You could maybe do that with a computer program. Fix the earth as stationary and then have the sun & planets maintain the same relative distances from the earth through time.

It would be like a tooth on a gear in a transmission. If you could somehow hold that tooth stationary, and keep the transmission running, then all the other gears, their teeth, and the whole transmission itself would be moving around that one tooth.
 
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Vance

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You might be able to create the model for curiosity sake, but we know that ain't how it works.

Although this site still thinks so:

http://www.geocities.com/armedconventicle/geocentrism.html

This site argues that even Creation Scientists have been duped into believing heliocentrism and that heliocentrism and evolution go hand in hand. He points out the Scriptural and theological arguments which the Church used long ago and cites some of the prominent Christian thinkers who maintained geocentrism was required by Scripture. We now see these guys as a bit "off" nowadays, but there was a time when everything he is saying was solid Christian teaching.
 
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Blueberry Sponge

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Vance said:
You might be able to create the model for curiosity sake, but we know that ain't how it works.
Actually I'm not convinced that there's any conclusive evidence that that's not how it works. In order to calculate the center of anything you have to be able to determine its boundaries. I don't think we know what the boundaries of the universe are.
 
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Vance

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Oh, as far as being in the center of the universe, that is possible I suppose, but not geocentrism. Not the idea that the sun physically revolves around the earth rather than the other way around.

As far as the center of the universe, if it is infinite in all directions, I guess you can pick any single position and say "this is the middle". I think that astronomers do, however, have a fairly good idea where the center of all the existing stars are at this point. But this has no theological significance anymore that I can see. If God chose to place Man on the outer rim of a galaxy that is way "off center" I can't see how that makes any difference. It did to the Church at one point, but now no one seems to think this impacts our Christianity in the least.
 
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Blueberry Sponge

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Vance said:
As far as the center of the universe, if it is infinite in all directions, I guess you can pick any single position and say "this is the middle".
I can't imagine it (Biblically) to be infinite in physical size since it's a created thing and separate from its Creator. I don't think science has ever proved that it is infinite in size.

Vance said:
I think that astronomers do, however, have a fairly good idea where the center of all the existing stars are at this point.
They probably have an idea where the center of all the KNOWN stars are but I don't think they have any idea of where the center of all the existing stars is. I think most of them would admit that. If we don't know the outer boundary of the entire universe (not just a group of galaxies) we can't determine the center of the universe.
 
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Ark Guy

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vance posted:
Before Galileo began promoting the heliocentric view of the universe, the Church believed that the sun and stars, the entire universe in fact, revolved around the earth. This was based, they believed, on a simple, plain reading of Scripture. The entire scheme of Genesis 1 made it clear: the earth was there at the very beginning and the rest of the universe was built around it. The sun and moon were "greater and lesser lights" *for the earth*, the stars part of the firmament over the earth. The earth played the central role, it was the location of God’s special creation, Man, and everything they read conformed to the idea of the earth being at the physical and literal center of things, with all else revolving around it. And there were other Scripture throughout the Bible which backed this up.

Once again it sounds like vance is making claims with out any historical or biblical support. I have asked him several times to provide the historical and biblical references for the points he is trying to make and so far has presented goose eggs.

Where does the bible claim that the sun physically revolves around the earth?

Where does history say that the church of that time held to a dogmatic argument that the sun revolved aroound the earth?

With out answers these questions, vances question are purely speculative and based upon imagination rather than some sort of biblical or historical reference.
 
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Vance

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Someone just sent me the actual quote I had been looking for. This is the official statement of the Church at the time:

"The proposition that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to the Holy Scripture. The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world and immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically, and theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith."

This well-known quote can be found here among other places: Janelle Rohr, editor, Science & Religion--Opposing Viewpoints (Greenhaven Press, 1988), p. 24.

The point is, of course, that the Bible does not teach that the earth is the center of the universe, but that the Church INTERPRETED Scripture to say so, pointing to Scripture (as noted above) and theological arguments (as noted above).

And, it would be entirely disengenuous for anyone now to say that if we read those Scriptures and knew NOTHING about astronomy, we would not reach the same geocentric conclusion. It IS the natural implication of the text until you know the scientific facts to the contrary. The Bible is not wrong because people draw wrong conclusions, even if those wrong conclusions seem to be the plain reading of the text.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Vance said:
Oh, as far as being in the center of the universe, that is possible I suppose, but not geocentrism. Not the idea that the sun physically revolves around the earth rather than the other way around.

As far as the center of the universe, if it is infinite in all directions, I guess you can pick any single position and say "this is the middle". I think that astronomers do, however, have a fairly good idea where the center of all the existing stars are at this point. But this has no theological significance anymore that I can see. If God chose to place Man on the outer rim of a galaxy that is way "off center" I can't see how that makes any difference. It did to the Church at one point, but now no one seems to think this impacts our Christianity in the least.
There is no centre.

The expanding 3d universe is analagous to the 2d skin of an expanding balloon. There is no point that can rightly be called a centre that is locatable on the skin. Similarly there is no locatable point in the 3d universe that can rightly be called the centre.


As to what would happen if you kept going in a straight line - what would happen if a cockroach carried on in a straight line over the skin of the balloon?

It's nicely explained here: http://www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/centre.html
 
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Blueberry Sponge

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
There is no centre.

The expanding 3d universe is analagous to the 2d skin of an expanding balloon. There is no point that can rightly be called a centre that is locatable on the skin. Similarly there is no locatable point in the 3d universe that can rightly be called the centre.


As to what would happen if you kept going in a straight line - what would happen if a cockroach carried on in a straight line over the skin of the balloon?
A 3d thing analogous to a 2d thing? The center of a balloon would be inside where the air is.
 
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Vance

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Well, the statement came as the official statement of the Catholic Church, but the Protestant leaders were basically in agreement. Luther was, if anything, more virulent in his attacks against heliocentrism than the Catholic Church.

The point, however, is that the traditional belief, both Scripturally and scientifically, of all Christians up to the point where science was able to inform differently, was Geocentrism. Just as a six 24-hour creation week was the traditional view before the early 1800's when geologists (all Christian) gathered the evidence that the earth was dramatically older than 6,000 years ago. Just as there were *some* who understood that the Earth was not the physical point around which the universe rotated, some (like Augustine) did not accept the 24 hour day reading of Genesis. But in both cases, the traditional interpretation of Scripture was shown to be inconsistent with God's Creation and that it was much more likely to be an error in our interpretation of Scripture than in the overwhelming evidence of God's Creation.

The parallels are complete. So much so that it is like deja vu all over again, as Yogi said. If the Christian community accepted that Heliocentrism was actually the correct way to view the universe, and simply adjusted their reading of Scripture accordingly, why do YEC's have such a hard time with doing the same things now?
 
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