The left-wing media's latest attempt to marginalize the Constitution

laconicstudent

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I'll say here what I said in the other secession thread: Secession as it is being discussed lately is simply throwing a hissy fit and quitting at a national level.

ragequit.png





Ironic then that he sent troops to conquer the Confederacy. ;)

No, "Conquer" implies that the Confederacy was another sovereign nation, as opposed to a bunch of traitors trying to break away. What he did was more like restoring order, a police action, putting down a rebellion.
 
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armyman_83

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It does not, no.

The Declaration of Independence was nothing more than a letter written to explain why the colonies decided to declare their independence. It did not create a new nation, nor did it set down any rules for one.

That came later.

-- A2SG, after a few minor squabbles and some hearty debate.....

True, but The Declaration of Independence was the start, the Treaty of Paris enumerates and solidifies State sovereignty:

"His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."--Article I, The Treaty of Paris 1783

Clearly every state is named "Free sovereign and independent".

Secession is never prohibited in the Constitution, therefore logic would dictate that the 10th Ammendment would allow for the States such a right.
 
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armyman_83

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No, "Conquer" implies that the Confederacy was another sovereign nation, as opposed to a bunch of traitors trying to break away. What he did was more like restoring order, a police action, putting down a rebellion.

What he did was invade and oppress a sovereign nation, one recognized even by Pope Pius IX. The Confederate States of America made no claim to the United States government, it was not a Civil War (as it was not two factions fighting for the control of one nation) but a War Between The States (War of Southern Independence, etc.) it could not, therefore be a rebellion in the sense that you have so named. For there was order, and a duly elected government, with laws and infrastructure.
 
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NotreDame

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True, but The Declaration of Independence was the start, the Treaty of Paris enumerates and solidifies State sovereignty:

"His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."--Article I, The Treaty of Paris 1783

Clearly every state is named "Free sovereign and independent".

Secession is never prohibited in the Constitution, therefore logic would dictate that the 10th Ammendment would allow for the States such a right.

Logic would dictate you not commit the fallacy of a non-sequiter. Quite simply, your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

First, I find it interesting you rely upon the 10th Amendment at all. The 10th Amendment reads as follows, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Secession has never been referred to as a "power" but rather a right. The use of the phrase "powers" in the 10th Amendment is not in reference to any right but those governmental functions enumerated in the U.S. Constitution for the U.S. government to operate, such as regulate commerce, coin money, declare war, etcetera. The phrase "powers" does not include "rights." Consequently, your assumption secession is a power at all included within the 10th Amendment's prhasing is erroneous.

The falsity of the assumption I discussed above weakens the veracity of your claim. Your argument was a basic one of, and I pharaphrase: Secession is not prohibited by the U.S. Constitution. There is a provision in the U.S. Constitution which asserts where X is not delegated to the United States, and the states are not prohibited from exercising X, then the states are not precluded from exercising X. You presumed the provision covered X, but alas the provision you cite does not cover X at all.

So, if the states do have the authority under the U.S. Constitution to secede from the Union, it is not in the 10th Amendment, as you so incorrectly assume.
 
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A2SG

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True, but The Declaration of Independence was the start, the Treaty of Paris enumerates and solidifies State sovereignty:

"His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."--Article I, The Treaty of Paris 1783

Clearly every state is named "Free sovereign and independent".

Right, since they hadn't yet formed the United States of America. When they did, about four years afterward, the details were set up for all to see.


Secession is never prohibited in the Constitution, therefore logic would dictate that the 10th Ammendment would allow for the States such a right.

Except, of course, that the Supreme Court decided the issue in Texas v. White in 1869. Logic notwithstanding, states do not have the right to secede.

-- A2SG, facts trump logic......
 
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armyman_83

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Secession has never been referred to as a "power" but rather a right. The use of the phrase "powers" in the 10th Amendment is not in reference to any right but those governmental functions enumerated in the U.S. Constitution for the U.S. government to operate, such as regulate commerce, coin money, declare war, etcetera. The phrase "powers" does not include "rights." Consequently, your assumption secession is a power at all included within the 10th Amendment's prhasing is erroneous.

The falsity of the assumption I discussed above weakens the veracity of your claim. Your argument was a basic one of, and I pharaphrase: Secession is not prohibited by the U.S. Constitution. There is a provision in the U.S. Constitution which asserts where X is not delegated to the United States, and the states are not prohibited from exercising X, then the states are not precluded from exercising X. You presumed the provision covered X, but alas the provision you cite does not cover X at all.

Secession is a power and a right, though it is, as you say, refered to most often as a right. Strangely enough the 10th Amendment is the last Amendment within the Bill of Rights. Secession is a power, a power in that it is the final stroke against a government that defies its people or becomes so undesireable that their people feel that they should throw it off for their betterment. Free Governments are run by the will of the people.

So, if the states do have the authority under the U.S. Constitution to secede from the Union, it is not in the 10th Amendment, as you so incorrectly assume.

The Confederate States cannot be in violation of Consitiutional Articles if they no longer fall under the Consitution. Therefore their power to secede was used. I feel as though the 10th Amendment is clear that it is a power delegated to the states, as it is not prohibited thereunto.




[\quote]"Except, of course, that the Supreme Court decided the issue in Texas v. White in 1869. Logic notwithstanding, states do not have the right to secede."--A2SG[/quote]

True, the Supreme Court did decide that states do not have a right to secede, except with the approval of Congress. However, I feel that the decision made in the case is wrong, as I am sure we all feel that certain Supreme Court decisions are wrong. The Kentucky Resolution, written by Thomas Jefferson seconds State Rights over the tryanny of the central government. The Virginia Resolution also agrees that the States are the final say of the Federal government's powers, and not that the Federal government gets to choose how much power it has--for if that were the case, the Federal government would be all powerful. If there are not checks and balances, there is Tyranny.

"...that in cases of an abuse of the delegated powers, the members of the general government, being chosen by the people, a change by the people would be the constitutional remedy; but, where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact, (casus non fœderis) to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them: that nevertheless, this commonwealth, from motives of regard and respect for its co-States, has wished to communicate with them on the subject: that with them alone it is proper to communicate, they alone being parties to the compact, and solely authorized to judge in the last resort of the powers exercised under it..."
 
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A2SG

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"Except, of course, that the Supreme Court decided the issue in Texas v. White in 1869. Logic notwithstanding, states do not have the right to secede."--A2SG

True, the Supreme Court did decide that states do not have a right to secede, except with the approval of Congress. However, I feel that the decision made in the case is wrong.... (snip reasons why)

That's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. Just not your own facts. Fact is, if a state wants to secede and challenge that ruling, then the Supreme Court may have to revisit the decision. But, until that happens, saying the states have a right that the Supreme Court already decided they do not is simply incorrect.

We could argue that the federal government has too much power, and I may even agree with some points to be made in that argument, but no state can survive on its own. All of them need the rest, and the federal government, for the nation to survive. We can, and should have, discussions on matters like these. But for a state to take the 10th Amendment to mean they can just take their ball and go home ignores a vital part of the logic of that idea: it ain't their ball. It belongs to all of us.

-- A2SG, we're the UNITED States, not the States Who Cooperate When We Feel Like it......
 
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NotreDame

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Secession is a power, a power in that it is the final stroke against a government that defies its people or becomes so undesireable that their people feel that they should throw it off for their betterment. Free Governments are run by the will of the people.



The Confederate States cannot be in violation of Consitiutional Articles if they no longer fall under the Consitution. Therefore their power to secede was used. I feel as though the 10th Amendment is clear that it is a power delegated to the states, as it is not prohibited thereunto.




[\quote]"Except, of course, that the Supreme Court decided the issue in Texas v. White in 1869. Logic notwithstanding, states do not have the right to secede."--A2SG

True, the Supreme Court did decide that states do not have a right to secede, except with the approval of Congress. However, I feel that the decision made in the case is wrong, as I am sure we all feel that certain Supreme Court decisions are wrong. The Kentucky Resolution, written by Thomas Jefferson seconds State Rights over the tryanny of the central government. The Virginia Resolution also agrees that the States are the final say of the Federal government's powers, and not that the Federal government gets to choose how much power it has--for if that were the case, the Federal government would be all powerful. If there are not checks and balances, there is Tyranny.

"...that in cases of an abuse of the delegated powers, the members of the general government, being chosen by the people, a change by the people would be the constitutional remedy; but, where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact, (casus non fœderis) to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them: that nevertheless, this commonwealth, from motives of regard and respect for its co-States, has wished to communicate with them on the subject: that with them alone it is proper to communicate, they alone being parties to the compact, and solely authorized to judge in the last resort of the powers exercised under it..."[/quote]

Secession is a power and a right, though it is, as you say, refered to most often as a right

Secession is not a power. You can repeat it until you are blue in the face but doing so will not make you right. Secession is not a power for purposes of U.S. government or society. Secession has historically been construed and understood as a right in U.S. political theory, U.S. political thought, and U.S. society. Secession is not a power for the government to operate but it is a right of the people to exercise.

None of the above remarks should be construed or understood as stating secession is a right at all.

Secession is a power, a power in that it is the final stroke against a government that defies its people or becomes so undesireable that their people feel that they should throw it off for their betterment. Free Governments are run by the will of the people.

You are adding a different meaning and understanding to the word "power" in the 10th Amendment. James Madison, in his speech to the House of Representatives, distinguishes between "power" and "rights." Madison uses the word "powers" in reference to the functions of the executive, judiciary, and legislative branches of government.

"The powers delegated by this constitution are appropriated to the departments to which they are respectively distributed: so that the legislative department shall never exercise the powers vested in the executive or judicial nor the executive exercise the powers vested in the legislative or judicial, nor the judicial exercise the powers vested in the legislative or executive departments.....the great object in view is to limit and qualify the powers of Government, by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the Government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular mode. They point these exceptions sometimes against the abuse of the executive power, sometimes against the legislative, and, in some cases, against the community itself; or, in other words, against the majority in favor of the minority."

Madison is using the word "power" and distinguishing between "powers of the Government" and "rights." Rights, according to the esteemed and distinguished Madison, are exceptions to the government's "powers." It is indeed odd to construe a right as simultaneously being a power, when one considers rights to be exceptions to government powers. When one reads over the entire Bill of Rights, one will observe amendments 1-9 refer to rights, rights of the people, or rights in general, as exceptions to government power, while the 10th Amendment refers to powers.

My point in all of this is to demonstrate your assumption secession is a "power" secured by the 10th Amendment is erroneous. Secession is not a power but a right. Therefore, the 10th Amendment does not secure secession for the states.

The Confederate States cannot be in violation of Consitiutional Articles if they no longer fall under the Consitution. Therefore their power to secede was used. I feel as though the 10th Amendment is clear that it is a power delegated to the states, as it is not prohibited thereunto.

This rests upon your unreasonable assumption secession is a power. Secession is not a power, and therefore, the 10th Amendment does not secure secession for the states. Consequently, this weakens your claim secession is secured to the states by the 10th Amendment.
 
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armyman_83

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Madison is using the word "power" and distinguishing between "powers of the Government" and "rights." Rights, according to the esteemed and distinguished Madison, are exceptions to the government's "powers." It is indeed odd to construe a right as simultaneously being a power, when one considers rights to be exceptions to government powers. When one reads over the entire Bill of Rights, one will observe amendments 1-9 refer to rights, rights of the people, or rights in general, as exceptions to government power, while the 10th Amendment refers to powers.

My point in all of this is to demonstrate your assumption secession is a "power" secured by the 10th Amendment is erroneous. Secession is not a power but a right. Therefore, the 10th Amendment does not secure secession for the states.

This rests upon your unreasonable assumption secession is a power. Secession is not a power, and therefore, the 10th Amendment does not secure secession for the states. Consequently, this weakens your claim secession is secured to the states by the 10th Amendment.

Supposing that secession is not a "power and a right" but rather merely a "right", you seem to help make my point--it is a right. True, Secession is NOT covered in the Consitution--nor is it prohibited.
 
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armyman_83

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That's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. Just not your own facts. Fact is, if a state wants to secede and challenge that ruling, then the Supreme Court may have to revisit the decision. But, until that happens, saying the states have a right that the Supreme Court already decided they do not is simply incorrect.

Granted I agree with you that such a case would be used and, Lord willing defeated. And I agree, we all have our own opinions and Facts are just that, facts.

Well I have been saying that the Confederate States had the right, as they did--since Texas v. White was well after the War Between the States they had no such ruling to go off of and therefore were not in the wrong. Is secession Illegal now? According to the Supreme Court, does that make it wrong? I would say no, if firearms were banned, it would be ilegal to own firearms, but I would not consider it wrong. Just because certain things are considered unlawful does not make them wrong.

We could argue that the federal government has too much power, and I may even agree with some points to be made in that argument, but no state can survive on its own. All of them need the rest, and the federal government, for the nation to survive. We can, and should have, discussions on matters like these. But for a state to take the 10th Amendment to mean they can just take their ball and go home ignores a vital part of the logic of that idea: it ain't their ball. It belongs to all of us.

-- A2SG, we're the UNITED States, not the States Who Cooperate When We Feel Like it......

Perhaps no state can survive on its own, but many states confederated together might. As to the Union belonging to all of us, it is and it isn't--if one state feels that they are being abused then they have every right for drastic change. But of course secession is not something to jump into too hasty, that is foolishness.

"The Constitution of the United States was formed by the sanction of the States, given by each in its sovereign capacity. It adds to the stability and dignity, as well as to the authority of the Constitution, that it rests on this solid foundation. The States, then, being parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity that there can be no tribunal above their authority to decide, in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and, consequently, as parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition"-- James Madison Virginia Resolutions
 
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armyman_83

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As an Air Force brat and briefly a reserve Army officer, I find it quite disquieting to see a soldier engaged in Confederate apologetics and advocating succession.

As an active duty soldier I feel that you being disquieted in my advocating of a peaceable right of self-determination and not blind obedience to a Tryannical Central Government distrubing. God only knows how much I love my country, but lo, how I fear the government over stepping its powers.

Why should I not argue for the rights of my fore-fathers, when they argued only to be let alone?
 
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NotreDame

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Supposing that secession is not a "power and a right" but rather merely a "right", you seem to help make my point--it is a right. True, Secession is NOT covered in the Consitution--nor is it prohibited.

Can you tell me how the states, and its people, have this right? I ask because given the nature of the U.S. Constitution, I do not think such a right exists at all.
 
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Schneiderman

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Can you tell me how the states, and its people, have this right? I ask because given the nature of the U.S. Constitution, I do not think such a right exists at all.


I haven't been following this thread but this represents a failure to understand "natural rights", the 9th amendment and the intention of the writers of the constitution. The rights of the people affirmed in the constitution are not "granted" by the government, they are recognized as natural rights that the people have because they are people, created equally, endowed by their creator with those rights. The 9th amendment confirms that the enumeration of certain rights in the constitution does not deny people other rights that they are endowed with. It is clear from the writings of the founding fathers that the right to secede, or overthrow their government, is a natural right of the people when the government fails to properly carry out its duties.
 
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NotreDame

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I haven't been following this thread but this represents a failure to understand "natural rights", the 9th amendment and the intention of the writers of the constitution. The rights of the people affirmed in the constitution are not "granted" by the government, they are recognized as natural rights that the people have because they are people, created equally, endowed by their creator with those rights. The 9th amendment confirms that the enumeration of certain rights in the constitution does not deny people other rights that they are endowed with. It is clear from the writings of the founding fathers that the right to secede, or overthrow their government, is a natural right of the people when the government fails to properly carry out its duties.

Recall my prior remark, which the above prose sought to address, was, "Can you tell me how the states, and its people, have this right? I ask because given the nature of the U.S. Constitution, I do not think such a right exists at all."

Your above remarks do not address the prose above in bold. Second, I am intimately familiar with and aware of the 9th Amendment, natural rights, and how the U.S. Constitution secures natural rights, as opposed to granting them. However, your attempt to educate me on a subject matter I have spent years and hours researching and reading was futile because they say nothing to address what I said in the boldened prose above.

Second, contrary to your erroneous assertion, some of the rights in the U.S. Constitution are not natural rights but rights which come into existence as a result of the compact between the government and the people. As James Madison so poignantly noted, a right to trial by jury is not a natural right but a right which comes into existence as a result of the compact between man and government as an institution to protect liberty.

I do not need an education on a subject matter I am already well versed in and which ultimately says and does nothing to address the position I did make.

Since I have already posted my prior remark, I will now provide an explication regarding its substance. It should have been readily apparent what I meant by use of the phrase, "such a right does not exist at all." I am asserting the U.S. Constitution denies such a right to the people and the states.
 
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A2SG

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Granted I agree with you that such a case would be used and, Lord willing defeated. And I agree, we all have our own opinions and Facts are just that, facts.

Well I have been saying that the Confederate States had the right, as they did--since Texas v. White was well after the War Between the States they had no such ruling to go off of and therefore were not in the wrong. Is secession Illegal now? According to the Supreme Court, does that make it wrong? I would say no, if firearms were banned, it would be ilegal to own firearms, but I would not consider it wrong. Just because certain things are considered unlawful does not make them wrong.

Again, your opinion and you're entitled to it. But the Tenth Amendment does not justify sessation, so citing it does nothing for your argument.


Perhaps no state can survive on its own, but many states confederated together might. As to the Union belonging to all of us, it is and it isn't--if one state feels that they are being abused then they have every right for drastic change.

Only after every effort has been made to take advantage of the many options available to them. The entire Judicial system stands ready to aid them in presenting and making their case.

But of course secession is not something to jump into too hasty, that is foolishness.

I'd say it's not only THE last resort, but one that will lead to their downfall should they succeed at it. United we stand, divided we fall and all that.

-- A2SG, but, granted, that's my opinion.....
 
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