The LDS temples

[Doc T]

Agreed.

I do, however, believe there are those who will 'go thru the motions' having never truly understood and applied the atonement. All ordinances, rituals and rites of the LDS church point to the Atonement. Christ is the only way, and I believe He has instituted these practices to remind us of that.

Amen

Doc

~

 

[skylark1]

Doc,

You wrote earlier that you would try to respond to the rest of post #73 later. I took the liberty of copying those portions of the post here, but it probably makes more sense when read in context

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It is clear that these were only external regulations, and a shadow of the inward cleansing of our hearts that only Christ could offer. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses our hearts from sin.

Revelation 1
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

​

Likewise, the anointings were a shadow of a spiritual reality. Oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. When a person comes to Christ, they are born again, as the oil of the Holy Spirit sparks the life of Christ in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 1
20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
​

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Doc: The early Christian and LDS temples build upon that make it possible for man to enter into God's "rest".

Do you have Bilical support for this statement? What I read is that those who believe enter into his rest.

Hebrews 4
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
​

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Doc: It is evident from several New Testament passages that when Jesus Christ established the New Covenant, He established a new system of temple worship.

Please show me this from scripture. I read that he fulfilled the old temple worship, rather than established a new system of temple worship.

 

[fatboys]

More personal speculation I assume, seeing that you have no support for such claim. Am I correct?

FB: Only one aspect of the ancient Temple was of the higher authority, or that in the Holy of Holies. The other rites were performed by the Lower authority. They did not have the power to seal.

 

[skylark1]

Agreed.

I do, however, believe there are those who will 'go thru the motions' having never truly understood and applied the atonement. All ordinances, rituals and rites of the LDS church point to the Atonement. Christ is the only way, and I believe He has instituted these practices to remind us of that.

arizona_sunshine,

If these practices are a reminder of what Christ has already done for you, then why do you consider them essential in order to spend eternity in the presence of God the Father?

 

[fatboys]

arizona_sunshine,

If these practices are a reminder of what Christ has already done for you, then why do you consider them essential in order to spend eternity in the presence of God the Father?

FB: As a person of your faith believes that in order to have salvation must gain access to this by gaining faith in Christ. The same is true with our ordinances and rites. We believe that there is a purpose for these rites as part of the atonement. In the older laws or the Mosaic laws, which could not bring salvation, it was prepartory rites. They were similar, but on a lower level and understanding.

 

[saltoearth]

Question for anyone
What was the temple that Christ tore down and built again in three days?

 

[baker]

As I have contended in the past. The Bible cannot be properly understood in a vacuum and we must study and understand the historical background to fill in areas that are not clear in the Bible text.

Perhaps this is what I see as a major concern with respect to mormonism. I see a lot of personal speculation about what isn't said in the bible and then a lot of "rationalization" after the fact to try and justify things as being a "requirement of god" such as this whole temple requirement. There are no directions from God (Christ) to do with anything that the lds church claims to be their most sacred ordinance of god. But yet, when asked to identify where this was directed by God, we see a whole lot of speculation or rationalization after the fact.

I hardily agree, Skylark always makes good comments.

Why do you think I picked her!!!!!!!

I am a bit suprized by your questions. It seems obvious to me that throughout the OT the jews went through periods of faithful temple worship and then periods of temple neglect only to be followed by a prophet coming on to the scene and calling Israel to repentance for neglecting the temple. Today, as with the early Christians, when their temples were destroyed and they were not permitted to rebuild, they did without the best they could and are now wait for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem again.

Doc

~

I'm not sure I follow you thoughts here. The reason I put out this as an anology was after conversations I had with an orthodox rabbi in january.

I went to our neighbors' son barmitzvah as he and my son are best buds and had the opportunity to have dinner with his rabbi that night. As he is very familiar with the lds teachings as well, we had the opportunity to discus the history of the temple from the jewish perspective. It was he who posed the very question to me that I asked here. That's when it hit with such obvious and common sense logic that I actually felt embarrased when I asked him about the lds claims that temple sealings and endowments were part of the early temple practices. As he said it directly, "if that were the case, why do you think a people that place such a high importance on our historical teachings would abandone such sacred teachings". He laughed about how difficult it is to teach thier youth to recite their vows in hebrew even after adding vowels, and commented that "if such teachings were part of the jewish temple history, it would be whole lot easier to keep those in practice than learning hebrew!"

Again, it stands out as such an obvious problem for ths lds claim that I thought it was worth asking. I mean, if those who are the direct decendants of the hebrews don't practice such temple ceremonies, and don't beleive such ceremonies existed, kind of makes you wonder.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

If these practices are a reminder of what Christ has already done for you, then why do you consider them essential in order to spend eternity in the presence of God the Father?

Obediance, humility and faith in action.

They serve as a reminder, which helps us maintain perspective and direction.

 

[Doc T]

Doc previous: The early Christian and LDS temples build upon that make it possible for man to enter into God's "rest".

Do you have Bilical support for this statement? What I read is that those who believe enter into his rest.

Hebrews is, to use Paul's words, "strong meat" (Hebrews 5:14). Paul wants to preach strong meat, but he addresses members of the church who will not digest it (see Hebrews 5:12). Nevertheless, he broaches doctrines that deal with the upper reaches of spiritual experience and Melchizedek Priesthood temple ordinances. Paul's letter might be divided into two main ideas: the promise of the temple and the price exacted to obtain the promise. At several points I will add the Prophet Joseph Smith's commentary, without which much of the temple significance of the apostle's remarks in Hebrews would elude us. ("Hebrews: To Ascend the Holy Mount" by M. Catherine Thomas) If anyone would like a complete copy of this article, PM me with an email address and I will send it to you.

I believe as Dr. Thomas that Paul wrote this letter to people who are members of the church at that time and that Paul's letter deals with temple ordinances.

To answer your question succinctly as possible. I cannot support that statement just from the Bible.

Doc previous: It is evident from several New Testament passages that when Jesus Christ established the New Covenant, He established a new system of temple worship.

Please show me this from scripture. I read that he fulfilled the old temple worship, rather than established a new system of temple worship.

Christ did fulfill the old temple worship, but did, in my opinion establish a new system of temple worship. That however cannot be established from the Bible only. If you would like, we can discuss the historical documents that I believe demonstrate this.

Doc

~

 

[Doc T]

Perhaps this is what I see as a major concern with respect to mormonism. I see a lot of personal speculation about what isn't said in the bible and then a lot of "rationalization" after the fact to try and justify things as being a "requirement of god" such as this whole temple requirement. There are no directions from God (Christ) to do with anything that the lds church claims to be their most sacred ordinance of god. But yet, when asked to identify where this was directed by God, we see a whole lot of speculation or rationalization after the fact.

That is interesting, because what I see is the scholarly world of Christianity doing exactly as I have outlined, but lay (non-scholarly) Christianity with their head in the sand, so to speak, about what the world of Christian Bible scholarship is learning about what the Jews really believed and what the Christians really believed.

Why do you think I picked her!!!!!!!

Sharp as a tack, she is.

I asked him about the lds claims that temple sealings and endowments were part of the early temple practices. As he said it directly, "if that were the case, why do you think a people that place such a high importance on our historical teachings would abandone such sacred teachings".

First of all, no one has ever claimed that the Jews practiced temple ordinances such as sealings or endowments. It was the early Christians.

Secondly, the reason that they no longer practiced them was as I said, the temples were destroyed and they fell into apostacy as Israel had done throughout time.

Perhaps reading through Dr. Nibley's article "The Christian Envy of the Temple", which was originally published in the Jewish Quarterly Review 50 (1959-60): 97-123, 229-40, might explain it more thorough. You can find it at:
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=61

 

[skylark1]

Hebrews is, to use Paul's words, "strong meat" (Hebrews 5:14). Paul wants to preach strong meat, but he addresses members of the church who will not digest it (see Hebrews 5:12).

I don't think that it is clear that Paul claims they will not digest his teaching. This is from the footnote in my Bible:

These Jewish Christians were immature. Some of them should have been teaching others, but they had not even applied the basics to their own lives. They were reluctant to move beyond age-old traditions, established doctrines, and discussion of the basics. They wouldn't be able to understand the high-priestly role of Christ unless they moved out of their comfortable position, cut some of their Jewish ties, and stopped trying to blend in with their culture. Committment to God moves people out of their comfort zones.
​

To answer your question succinctly as possible. I cannot support that statement just from the Bible.

Thanks for your honesty.

Christ did fulfill the old temple worship, but did, in my opinion establish a new system of temple worship. That however cannot be established from the Bible only. If you would like, we can discuss the historical documents that I believe demonstrate this.

If Jesus established a new system of temple worship, don't you think that there would be some evidence of theis found in the Bible?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

If Jesus established a new system of temple worship, don't you think that there would be some evidence of theis found in the Bible?

Could the lack thereof be evidence of apostasy?

Convienant, I know. But honestly, does the Bible really contain every epistle, and every word of the Lord that has been spoken to His servants?

 

[skylark1]

Could the lack thereof be evidence of apostasy?

Convienant, I know. But honestly, does the Bible really contain every epistle, and every word of the Lord that has been spoken to His servants?

I realize that the Bible does not contain every word that Jesus ever spoke, but if Jesus established a new system of temple worship, it seems like there would be evidence of this found in the Bible.

 

[baker]

Could the lack thereof be evidence of apostasy?

Convienant, I know. But honestly, does the Bible really contain every epistle, and every word of the Lord that has been spoken to His servants?

Where is your support from lds scriptures?

 

[spike]

Hebrews 9
5Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

They could not discuss this in detail because of the amount of time and writing that it would have taken. No where was it forbidden to discuss this. The details are given in Exodus and Leviticus concerning the furnishings of the tabernacle. But the physical details of the tabernacle represented spiritual realities, that would take a long time to discuss in great detail.

(spike is wondering what they were doing back in the day that took up so much time..)

 

[Doc T]

I don't think that it is clear that Paul claims they will not digest his teaching. This is from the footnote in my Bible:

These Jewish Christians were immature. Some of them should have been teaching others, but they had not even applied the basics to their own lives. They were reluctant to move beyond age-old traditions, established doctrines, and discussion of the basics. They wouldn't be able to understand the high-priestly role of Christ unless they moved out of their comfortable position, cut some of their Jewish ties, and stopped trying to blend in with their culture. Committment to God moves people out of their comfort zones.​

I'm sure some did digest what Paul had to say, but Paul did comment that some of them "have need of milk, and not strong meat. The meat was for those that "are full of age" or the more mature of the church.

Thanks for your honesty.

I try.

If Jesus established a new system of temple worship, don't you think that there would be some evidence of this found in the Bible?

There are hints of it throughout the NT if you know what you are looking for, otherwise you can explain them away as something else or simply pass it over without understanding what the person is referring to.

I will post some examples tomorrow.

Doc

~​

 

[Doc T]

Where is your support from lds scriptures?

Of what, the apostacy?

Doc

~

 

[baker]

There are hints of it throughout the NT if you know what you are looking for, otherwise you can explain them away as something else or simply pass it over without understanding what the person is referring to.

This is what I was referring to in an earlier post. If it was as sacred and as required as thd lds church claims, do you really believe Christ would be so cryptic in His message. It would be so inconsistent with His purpose and the word of God.

If we have to fall back on the ol, "well we can't trust the catholic church for including everything we have in the bible today", why would something like this pose a problem for any church? What was there to hide or controll? (I just finished the Da Vinci Code, so go ahead and hit me up!)

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Where is your support from lds scriptures?

Is inference also heretical?

 

[baker]

Is inference also heretical?

Tell you what, I'll answer your question if you'll answer mine!