The LDS temples

[happyinhisgrace]

John 7:35
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 14:2
But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

Acts 14:27
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 15:12
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Acts 18:6
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:21
And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles

Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the
fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 15:9
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should
preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


This is only a start. Do you need some more "proof" that the "gentiles" are the other fold, which he sent the apostles out to teach?

An absolutly excellent post. Well done!!!!!!!!!!

God Bless,
Grace

 

[MormonFriend]

Here it is in full context.......

Genesis 49
.............
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
......
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Im really not sure about this one, but Im trusting God will prove to me what it means.

That is the most reasonable answer a man or woman can give. 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. (Deuteronomy 29:4) This applies to everyone and I am not point it at you. The Lord will open our eyes to all things just as soon as we are willing to receive it with obedience.

As you patiently wait for God to make it clear to you, and trust that He will not allow others to confuse you with fiction instead of fact, please consider the following and ask God for clarification.

Jesus said he had other sheep. The Jews are primarily known as the chosen flock. But the whole house of Israel received a blessing from Jacob. Joseph received perhaps a greater blessing than Judah. It is noted in versed 22 and 26 that Joseph was separated from the house, that his branches (descendants) ran over the wall (some border such as an ocean). Is it unfeasable that Christ answered the blessing of Jacob to Joseph as well as to the Jews from Judah? They are all His sheep, and ultimately the fold will be joined again.

Speaking of records written by ancient civilizations, there is another prophecy.

15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. (Ezekiel37:15 - 19)

Other sheep becoming one fold. Two sticks or records, representing two folds, becoming one.

Please ask God what these mean.

"You and I do not make the guidelines or conditons of which God's purposes unfold. As in the past, when God's major events came about, there have always been the skeptics and naysayers. And most of the time, the ways of God have been peculiar, perhaps perpostorous, to the "modern thinking" of the days."

I agree. So with this reasoning, its possible there could have been only ONE Jesus appearance to save ALL of mankind.

But if Jesus did appear to others, and the records are available for review, then it behooves the follower to investigate it thoroughly, for such an occurance would supersede the possibility that you quoted.

Also given the fact that someday, somewhere, that stick of Joseph is going to appear, all followers should be on high aleart looking for it, and knowing that Satan is not going to stand idly by, he will do everything possible to discredit this and every prophecy designed to aid the believer in his search for truth.

God bless, unbound.

Your heart is honest and sincere.

 

[skylark1]

I hope that no one minds if we get back to the topic of temples. The LDS claim that Jesus appeared in the western hemisphere might make a good topic for a separate thread, but I do't think that it relates to the topic of this thread. Sorry, I haven't been able to get back to this thread until now.

The tabernacle preceded the temple, but the pattern, purpose, and instruction was the same for both of them.

When Moses was on Mt. Sinai, God instructed him:

Exodus 25
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

​

The Hebrew word for sanctuary is miqdash. It means a sacred or holy place.

The Hebrew word for tabernacle is mishkan. It means dwelling place. It is not a word that speaks of spendor, rather it could mean a simple hut or an animal's home.

The purpose of the tabernacle is clearly stated; that God may dwell with man. God, the Creator of the universe, did not need a house to live in, and could not be contained to a house. But He chose to have a place where His glory could dwell, and where people could approach Him.

When the tabernacle was completed, the glory of the Lord filled the temple:

Exodus 40
33 And he reared up the court round about the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the hanging of the court gate. So Moses finished the work.
34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

​

Years later when the temple that Solomon built was complete the glory of the Lord entered the temple. God's presence was so awesome that the priests were not able to stand.

1 Kings 8
10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,
11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

​

 

[twhite982]

Most definitely one of my questions will be where Christ taught "hush-hush" stuff!!!!!!

There are 9 particular examples of Jesus telling people to "TELL NO MAN". of course they are not all directed to what you're getting at, but they do show the idea that the world is NOT ready for everything Jesus teaches / does.

Matt 17 talks of the mount of transfiguration of which Jesus told His apostles to "tell no man"

Paul talks of milk and meat in Heb 5

Again in 2 Cor 12:4 Paul talks of words he heard, which are unlawful to speak of.


The very idea of secret (esoteric) teachings make references to them limited. No one can make a case from lack of material, but there is enough "evidence" to show everything Jesus did / taught did not go directly to the world because they simply were not ready, due to lack of belief.


Tom

 

[skylark1]

Hebrews 9
5Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

They could not discuss this in detail because of the amount of time and writing that it would have taken. No where was it forbidden to discuss this. The details are given in Exodus and Leviticus concerning the furnishings of the tabernacle. But the physical details of the tabernacle represented spiritual realities, that would take a long time to discuss in great detail.


I will try to summerize some of it later today. Of course I can't discuss these things in too great of detail right now! It would probably take an entire book to do so! <grin>

 

[skylark1]

The tabernacle was divided into three areas. The outer court was where the bronze altar, and bronze laver were located. This is where the people brought their offerings and sacrifices. The inner court or Holy Place was separated by a curtain from the outer court. It contained the table of showbread, altar of incense, and golden lampstand. The high priest entered this area daily and offered prayers on behalf of the people. The third area, the Holy of Holies, was separated form the Holy Place by an inner veil. Inside of the Holy of Holies was the Arrk of the Covenant. It contained the stone tablets, a jar of manna, and Aaron's budded rod. It was covered with a mercy seat of hammered gold, that was adorned with a cherub on each end. The high priest could only enter the Holy of Holies once a year. He sprinkled the blood from the sacrifice on the mercy seat to make atonement for the people.

I believe that the OT tabernacle was a shadow of Christ and God's plan of redemption.

The bronze alter is where the animals were sacrificed to cover the sins of the Israelite people. Jesus's deathe on the cross was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 10
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
​

The golden lampstand, fueled by pure olive oil, symbolized light from God. Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12), and Christians are to be a light to the world (Matthew 5:14).

The table of showbread was a symble of God's providence. The twelve loaves were a reminder that the twelve tribes were always in God's presence. Jesus is called the "Bread of Life" (John 6:35). God provides for our needs daily. Daily we are to be in God's presence, and feast on His word.

The altar of incense burned continually and symbolized prayer. Christians are instructed to pray without ceasing (1 Thes 5:17). Jesus intecedes on our behalf.

Hebrews 7
25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
​

According to the Talmud, the inner veil was the thickness of a man's palm (about four inches). It represents the body of Christ. When Jesus offered up His spirit onthe cross, it was this veil that was torn from the top to the bottom. This symbolized that we can enter God's presence.

Hebrews 10
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,
The glory of God

​

The Holy of Holies is where the glory of God was manifested. It was above the ark, above the law the had been broken, on the mercy seat where God approached man.

Exodus 25
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
​

More symbolism of spiritual realities in Jesus can be found in studying the details of the tabernacle. I cannot mention all of it right now, not becuse it is to be kept secret, but because the symbolism is so rich and deep that it covers much more that I can write about in a few posts. This site mentions much more: The Tabernacle of Moses Study, but there are many studies of how the tabernacle, and later the temple, symbolized God's grace and mercy through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I hope that all can see that the tabernacle and temple pointed to Jesus. When the veil was torn, when Jesus gave his life for our, God reached down to man. The temple sacrifices were no longer needed, because Jesus had paid the perfect sacrifice. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

 

[twhite982]

Hebrews 9
5Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

They could not discuss this in detail because of the amount of time and writing that it would have taken. No where was it forbidden to discuss this. The details are given in Exodus and Leviticus concerning the furnishings of the tabernacle. But the physical details of the tabernacle represented spiritual realities, that would take a long time to discuss in great detail.


I will try to summerize some of it later today. Of course I can't discuss these things in too great of detail right now! It would probably take an entire book to do so! <grin>

I'll take your word for it SkyLark and I'll withdraw that example, since it seems it can be understood in either way. The KJV can be deceptive sometimes with that old english, but I double-checked the verse against other translations.

Anyways, there are a few articles I have found, which address this issue, but I haven't seen Baker for a while and don't know if this is a major source of contention for him.


Tom

 

[skylark1]

What do LDS think that the significance of the temple veil being torn by God from top to bottom at the moment when Jesus gave up His spirit? It seems obvious to me that God opened the Holy of Holies through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Because of this, it is very difficult for me to understand LDS restricting admittance to their temple.

 

[twhite982]

What do LDS think that the significance of the temple veil being torn by God from top to bottom at the moment when Jesus gave up His spirit? It seems obvious to me that God opened the Holy of Holies through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Because of this, it is very difficult for me to understand LDS restricting admittance to their temple.

I see the purpose of the temples in OT times as a place to atone for sins and this was efficated through a proper heart of the individual.

The priests were the mediator between God and man until the veil was rent and then the mediator was our Savior, who in all actuality was the mediator prior to this as His atonement is an infinite one.

The LDS temples have nothing to do with atoning for sin in the same regards as the OT temples. We do not have any type of animal sacrifices going on in there.

The restricion has nothing to do with the same restriction of the High Priest, who only entered in once a year.

In a sense though these odinances are salvic, not that they carry of themselves power to save, but as I've explained to you before, the LDS believe that these earthly ordinances are necessary, just as baptism to answer a good conscience before God.

While baptism is required by most for entrance into the church, the temple ordinances are for entrance into the highest heaven where God dwells and if true faith is present and we live our lives faithful to it, then this is what we are promised as the full inheritance of God to those faithful.

Thus a higher "requirement" is needed to participate in these higher ordinances.

"much is given, much required"

This is not to say the LDS believe thos non-LDS are unworthy in regards to sin, but that they don't recognize the LDS temple for what it is and therefore don't consider it Holy as the house of the Lord.

Actually non-LDS are welcome to enter into temples, where the majority have a "waiting" area for quiet contemplation and reflection. The Portland, OR temple where I go has an indoor garden, which is quite peaceful. In fact some temples even have a visitor's area where anyone can learn about the church / temples.

To enter past the recommend desk, you will need a recommend, where it is assumed by being a holder of a recommend you're a faithful LDS who believes in this church in that God has ordained its organization and has given it authority to act.


Anything less than this would not give right to admission past the waiting area.


Tom

 

[happyinhisgrace]

In a sense though these odinances are salvic, not that they carry of themselves power to save, but as I've explained to you before, the LDS believe that these earthly ordinances are necessary, just as baptism to answer a good conscience before God.

So Tom, do you believe that Jesus alone has the power to save or do you believe like you stated above that the Temple ordinances have the power to save?

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

In a sense though these odinances are salvic, not that they carry of themselves power to save, but as I've explained to you before, the LDS believe that these earthly ordinances are necessary, just as baptism to answer a good conscience before God.

So Tom, do you believe that Jesus alone has the power to save or do you believe like you stated above that the Temple ordinances have the power to save?

Grace

regarding last posts, I know you said they are nessisary to show a good consience toward God but from the use of the word "nessisary", it would appear that you feel they have to be done for one to enter heaven with God.

Grace

 

[Rescued One]

It isn't possible that ordinances are necessary to enter heaven.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 Corinthians 11
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[skylark1]

I see the purpose of the temples in OT times as a place to atone for sins and this was efficated through a proper heart of the individual.

The priests were the mediator between God and man until the veil was rent and then the mediator was our Savior, who in all actuality was the mediator prior to this as His atonement is an infinite one.

The LDS temples have nothing to do with atoning for sin in the same regards as the OT temples. We do not have any type of animal sacrifices going on in there.

Tom, I wasn't insinuating that LDS sacrifice animals in their temples!

What relationship do you see between the OT temple and LDS temples? The tabernacle was built as a sanctuary, as a place for the presence of God to dwell among His people. Now God's spirit lives in those who are in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

1 Corinthians 6
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;


​

While baptism is required by most for entrance into the church, the temple ordinances are for entrance into the highest heaven where God dwells and if true faith is present and we live our lives faithful to it, then this is what we are promised as the full inheritance of God to those faithful.

Thus a higher "requirement" is needed to participate in these higher ordinances.

What do you base your claim on that only those who have participated in LDS temple ordinances can spend eternity with God the Father? I know of no Biblical support for this, or for the claim that one must be "sealed" to spend eternity in His presence.

Actually non-LDS are welcome to enter into temples, where the majority have a "waiting" area for quiet contemplation and reflection. The Portland, OR temple where I go has an indoor garden, which is quite peaceful. In fact some temples even have a visitor's area where anyone can learn about the church / temples.

To enter past the recommend desk, you will need a recommend, where it is assumed by being a holder of a recommend you're a faithful LDS who believes in this church in that God has ordained its organization and has given it authority to act.


Anything less than this would not give right to admission past the waiting area.

Thanks for the information, but this isn't about some desire that you seem to think that I have to enter an LDS temple. However, it would be unrealistic to assume that it is not possible that I might one day have to choose to wait in the "waiting room" to "peacefully reflect" being excluded from the wedding of one of my children, or wait elsewhere.

I still have a difficult time understanding the reason for the restrictions in light of the veil being torn. Did the restrictions begin when sealings/celestial marriage/polygamy was introduced in the LDS church?

 

[Doc T]

Hebrews 9
5Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

They could not discuss this in detail because of the amount of time and writing that it would have taken. No where was it forbidden to discuss this. The details are given in Exodus and Leviticus concerning the furnishings of the tabernacle. But the physical details of the tabernacle represented spiritual realities, that would take a long time to discuss in great detail.

While your interpretation is one possibility, on what basis do you conclude that "no where was it forbidden to discuss this"?

LDS scholar Eugene Seaich believes the reluctance to discuss the cherubim had to do with what they represented. He has gathered a considerable amount of evidence that the cherubim represented the divine model of male-female union and that this symbolism was used to teach the doctrine of eternal marriage in the temple (Mormonism, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi Texts, Murray, Utah: Sounds of Zion, 1980, pp. 32-43).

Doc

~

 

[skylark1]

While your interpretation is one possibility, on what basis do you conclude that "no where was it forbidden to discuss this"?

LDS scholar Eugene Seaich believes the reluctance to discuss the cherubim had to do with what they represented. He has gathered a considerable amount of evidence that the cherubim represented the divine model of male-female union and that this symbolism was used to teach the doctrine of eternal marriage in the temple (Mormonism, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi Texts, Murray, Utah: Sounds of Zion, 1980, pp. 32-43).

Doc

~

The details of the construction of the tabernacle and the sacrifices and offerings are discussed extensively in Exodus and Leviticus. You haven't offered any evidence that it was forbidden to discuss these things.

Is this LDS "doctrine" that cherubim represent male-female union, or someone's speculation?

 

[Doc T]

What do LDS think that the significance of the temple veil being torn by God from top to bottom at the moment when Jesus gave up His spirit? It seems obvious to me that God opened the Holy of Holies through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Because of this, it is very difficult for me to understand LDS restricting admittance to their temple.

"The validity of this argument rests upon the the assumption that the veil which tore at the crucifixion was the veil that divided the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Biblical scholars are divided when it comes to deciding which veil actually tore on that occasion but a simple reading of the relevant scriptures makes it clear that the veil at the front of the temple tore, not the one before the Holy of Holies. In all three accounts of this incident it is reported that "the veil of the temple was rent" in two (Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45). Each of these accounts uses "veil" in the singular. In the tabernacle, the temple of Solomon, and the temple of Zerubbabel there was only one veil hanging in front of the Holy of Holies. But the temple of Herod - the one that existed during the time of Christ - there were actually two veils hanging in that position. (The International Standard Bible Encyclopeida, 1988). Based on this evidence alone, one is inclined to conclude that it was the outer veil that tore when Christ was crucified and thus the typology of direct and unrestricted access to God's personal presence after the crucifixion cannot be valid." (quoted from "The Gate of Heaven" by Matthew B. Brown, p 172)

Doc

 

[Doc T]

The details of the construction of the tabernacle and the sacrifices and offerings are discussed extensively in Exodus and Leviticus. You haven't offered any evidence that it was forbidden to discuss these things.

With all due respect, I fail to see how the verse in Hebrews concerns the construction and other details discussed extensively in Exodus and Leviticus. If that were the details to which the author was referring, why not simply refer the listener (reader) to the relevant scriptures if there was simply a shortage of time?

Is this LDS "doctrine" that cherubim represent male-female union, or someone's speculation?

I am refering to the realm of scholarship, not doctrine.

Doc

~

 

[skylark1]

"The validity of this argument rests upon the the assumption that the veil which tore at the crucifixion was the veil that divided the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Biblical scholars are divided when it comes to deciding which veil actually tore on that occasion but a simple reading of the relevant scriptures makes it clear that the veil at the front of the temple tore, not the one before the Holy of Holies. In all three accounts of this incident it is reported that "the veil of the temple was rent" in two (Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45). Each of these accounts uses "veil" in the singular. In the tabernacle, the temple of Solomon, and the temple of Zerubbabel there was only one veil hanging in front of the Holy of Holies. But the temple of Herod - the one that existed during the time of Christ - there were actually two veils hanging in that position. (The International Standard Bible Encyclopeida, 1988). Based on this evidence alone, one is inclined to conclude that it was the outer veil that tore when Christ was crucified and thus the typology of direct and unrestricted access to God's personal presence after the crucifixion cannot be valid." (quoted from "The Gate of Heaven" by Matthew B. Brown, p 172)

The writer of Hebrews seems to believe that the veil that was torn was the inner veil, as in this passage he relates the veil to the Most Holy Place to the body of Jesus that was broken for us.


Hebrews 10
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

 

[Doc T]

The writer of Hebrews seems to believe that the veil that was torn was the inner veil, as in this passage he relates the veil to the Most Holy Place to the body of Jesus that was broken for us.


Hebrews 10
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Thanks, I did think of this verse, but I am not sure that these verses are refering to the veil that was rent, but simply making symbolic reference to the veil(s) that seperated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.

Doc

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[skylark1]

"The validity of this argument rests upon the the assumption that the veil which tore at the crucifixion was the veil that divided the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Biblical scholars are divided when it comes to deciding which veil actually tore on that occasion but a simple reading of the relevant scriptures makes it clear that the veil at the front of the temple tore, not the one before the Holy of Holies. In all three accounts of this incident it is reported that "the veil of the temple was rent" in two (Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45). Each of these accounts uses "veil" in the singular. In the tabernacle, the temple of Solomon, and the temple of Zerubbabel there was only one veil hanging in front of the Holy of Holies. But the temple of Herod - the one that existed during the time of Christ - there were actually two veils hanging in that position. (The International Standard Bible Encyclopeida, 1988). Based on this evidence alone, one is inclined to conclude that it was the outer veil that tore when Christ was crucified and thus the typology of direct and unrestricted access to God's personal presence after the crucifixion cannot be valid." (quoted from "The Gate of Heaven" by Matthew B. Brown, p 172)

Doc

The International Bible Encyclopedia which was referenced in the above quote clearly states that the veil that was torn was the inner curtain; the veil that separated the Holy of Holies.

VEIL (2)



(1) (parokheth; katapetasma; the King James Version vail): In Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, the veil that hung between the two holy chambers of the tabernacle is mentioned 23 times (Exodus 26:31, etc.). In several places it is termed "the veil of the screen" and it is distinguished from "the screen for the door of the tabernacle" (Exodus 35:12,15; 39:34,38). By the latter is meant the curtain that hung outside the holy place, i.e. at the tabernacle entrance. Exodus 26:31 informs us that the veil was made of fine-twined linen, and that its colors were blue and purple and scarlet. It was embroidered with cherubim. At each removal of the tabernacle the veil was used to enwrap the ark of the testimony (Numbers 4:5). From its proximity to this central object of the Hebrew ceremonial system, the veil is termed "the veil of the testimony" (Leviticus 24:3), "the veil which is before the testimony" (Exodus 27:21), etc. In Solomon's Temple the veil is mentioned but once (2 Chronicles 3:14). It was protected by doors of olive wood (1 Kings 6:31). In the later temple it is alluded to in 1 Macc 1:22. Its presence in Herod's temple is attested by the statement in each of the Synoptists that at the time of Christ's death the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom, or in the midst (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45; compare in Mishna, Mid. ii. 1; iv.7). This fact is the basis of the profound truth expressed by the writer to the Hebrews that Jesus, by His sacrificial death, opened for all believers a way into the holiest "through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Hebrews 10:20).

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