The LDS temples

[twhite982]

Sorry,

I should've posted the premise initially before I got all gun-ho with Baker.

This was in response to another one of Baker's challenges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by: baker


Spike,
I would love to discuss this with you or any other lds posters from a "cradle to grave" perspective withing the confines of christian doctrine and the history of your church. Would you like to set up a separate thread to do so?
...
If you or any other lds posters believe I am not properly informed or being realistic, set up a separate thread. I would welcome the open dialogue and detailed analysis.
You and your church claim it is a requirement of god so I would trust that this would be something you and the other lds posters would like to demonstrate.
I will await for one of you to do this if I am wrong.



Quote: Tom

Baker,
I know the temple is one of your favorite pet peeves.
I've discussed with you on countless occassions items regarding the temple from the requirement to build them to "eternal marriage".
What exactly are you looking for with this?
Do you want the LDS to show the requirement for building the temple, ordinances, requirements for entrance, etc... and that they are ALL contained clearly and concisely within the confines of the Bible?
If so, I've also already mentioned numerous times they are NOT there.
The evidence for temples and its ordinances are found within LDS scripture either directly or indirectly.
Can I show you the exact wording you're looking for? No
I honestly don't think ANY LDS poster here will satify you on ANY issue regarding the temple.
In my discussion with you I have found that you've already come to your conclusions and if I try to submit other possibilities or explanations, I am just decieved.
I honestly enjoy having these discussions with you but there needs to be a give and take dialogue, not just the LDS conforming to your intepretation of those events.
I have admitted to you several times on different issues from the perspective of what I know and what you've presented that your intepretation is correct. To my memory I fail to recall you giving any credit to another possible explanation than the conclusion you've already reached.
Again I'd be happy to discuss this with you, but not from such a rigid viewpoint. I fully accept that you believe I'm in a false religion. We have that obstacle out of the way. Lets discuss this openminded as you've asked me to in times past.

Tom

http://www.christianforums.com/t99746 Posts 46-48

 

[twhite982]

Sorry folks.


It's well into Satruday now and I gotta get up in about 5 1/2. See you later this weekend. But don't lose the emotion here!

My final paring joke for the evening after watching a movie you should all recognize by the joke:

"Christains are the poorest group of people I know"

"HOW POOR ARE THEY"

"their so poor they can only afford one god"

Guess the movie?

Yeah I gotta go too, the Big Boss just got home and she says the plug needs to be pulled.

See ya manana.

Tom

 

[baker]

Are you saying our text can only be from the NT?

Tom

Ok,

Really last post for tonight.

Of course you should. Remember why we cant use the bom to find the temple stuff? Same applies to the Bible but with more actual support.

Tell me what "Christ" said!!! In either your scriptures or ours. The OT was "rent in two" with His sacrafice, remember? Geez, my son and I saw the "Passion" last weekend and even he identified that in the movie!!!

Twhite, you gotta get out more!!!

 

[baker]

Johnny Lingo?

No,

Mel Brooks - History of the World

 

[MormonFriend]

Baker, if you have time to browse, I found this link to an Ensign Magizine that came out when I was in Argentina. (1976) It is dedicated to the LDS concept of Temples.

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1974.htm/ensign%20august%201974.htm?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0

Skylark, I recall you inquiring about Temples some time ago, I think it related to the discovery or future building of a Temple in Jerusalem. (and you once asked if read your messages.)

 

[skylark1]

Skylark, I recall you inquiring about Temples some time ago, I think it related to the discovery or future building of a Temple in Jerusalem. (and you once asked if read your messages.)

I think that our past discussion centered around the millenialium and your claims that LDS were helping to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

I read where baker proposed discussing the temple from "cradle to grave" perspective. I suggest that we start with the OT and the purpose, instructions, and laws concerning the tabernacle and later the temple.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Ok,

Really last post for tonight.

Of course you should. Remember why we cant use the bom to find the temple stuff? Same applies to the Bible but with more actual support.

Tell me what "Christ" said!!! In either your scriptures or ours. The OT was "rent in two" with His sacrafice, remember? Geez, my son and I saw the "Passion" last weekend and even he identified that in the movie!!!

Twhite, you gotta get out more!!!

Baker, I want to go see the Passion too. You mentioned that you took your son to see it? How old is your son? Was he ok with seeing it? Would you recommend taking children to the movie?

Gracce

 

[LifeLuver]

I've got popcorn (kettle corn...my favorite) in hand now...when's this wrestling match going to take place?

Also Grace,

Mi madre saw it last week and though she liked it she's iffy about having me see it because of the violence and gore. I'll be turning 16 in May. I'd suggest seeing the movie first and then see if you think it's okay for your older kids to watch.

With luv...

 

[twhite982]

Ok,

Really last post for tonight.

Of course you should. Remember why we cant use the bom to find the temple stuff? Same applies to the Bible but with more actual support.

Sorry Baker,

The selective memory is kicking in here, I don't recall why we can only use the Bible.

Besides as I said before, the BofM is meant to bring one to Christ and the D&C is meant to bring one to Christ's church. Most of the support will be had in the D&C.

Tell me what "Christ" said!!! In either your scriptures or ours. The OT was "rent in two" with His sacrafice, remember? Geez, my son and I saw the "Passion" last weekend and even he identified that in the movie!!!

Twhite, you gotta get out more!!!

Actual I saw the movie too. Technically, it was incorrect, since it rent the temple in two, not the veil to the holy of holies.

OK, ALL LDS scripture is fair game as I understand from what you're saying.

This makes my job much easier.

Tom

 

[twhite982]

I think that our past discussion centered around the millenialium and your claims that LDS were helping to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

I read where baker proposed discussing the temple from "cradle to grave" perspective. I suggest that we start with the OT and the purpose, instructions, and laws concerning the tabernacle and later the temple.

While there are similiarities between LDS temples today and those in the OT. they are not one and the same.

I still think it would be a great idea to either compare or contrast them.


Tom

 

[Doc T]

Twhite,

Let's pick teams to do this!!! Me first: I pick Skylark1 for my first pick!!!

Your pick now!!!!

(Really, I will do this by myself if I have to!!!! )

Oh, pick me, pick me!!!

Oh, wait we are limited to only the LDS standard works? I may not be able to play then. I love to use scholarly research, both LDS and non-LDS. Oh, well, then I will sit on the sidelines and wait for the rules to change and then when they do and I get tagged then I'll play.

Doc

~

 

[LifeLuver]

>>>Oh, wait we are limited to only the LDS standard works? I may not be able to play then. I love to use scholarly research, both LDS and non-LDS. Oh, well, then I will sit on the sidelines and wait for the rules to change and then when they do and I get tagged then I'll play.<<<

Want some popcorn?

 

[MormonFriend]

Oh, pick me, pick me!!!
~

I loved that part from "Shrek." I wanted to use it but thougt it wouldn't be "scholarly."

Oh, wait we are limited to only the LDS standard works? I may not be able to play then. I love to use scholarly research, both LDS and non-LDS. Oh, well, then I will sit on the sidelines and wait for the rules to change and then when they do and I get tagged then I'll play.

Doc ~

Actually, I am not a scholar, I am a refrigeration mechanic (which field would probably stump most scholars). Is it essential to have scholarly capacities to understand or "prove" God's word? Are those like "Forrest Gump" doomed because they are at the mercy of those who "really know?'

(One of those e-mail pass along stories) The day finally arrives. Forrest Gump dies and goes to Heaven. He walks up to the Pearly Gates and is met by St. Peter himself. The good saint says: "Well, Forrest, we're glad to see you." We have heard a lot about you. I must let you know however, that the place is filling up fast, so we have been giving an entrance examination to everyone. The test is short but you have to pass before you can get into heaven. You need to answer thesethree questions:1. What days of the week begin with the letter "T"?2. How many seconds are there in a year? 3. What is God's first name?Forrest says, "Well, the first one -- that's an easy one. There are two of them - Today and Tomorrow." The saint's eyes open wide in surprise: "Forrest, that's not what I wasthinking, but ... I'll give you credit for that answer.""How about the second question?""Now, that one's harder," says Forrest, "but I'll guess the answer to be twelve."Astounded, St. Peter says, "Twelve? Twelve? Forrest, how in Heaven's name couldyou come up with twelve seconds in a year?""Shucks, there's gotta be twelve," Forrest answers, "January 2nd, February 2nd, March 2nd, etc.""Hold it" interrupts St. Peter. "I see where you're going with this, and I'll have to give you credit for that one, too. Let's go on to the next and inalquestion. Can you tell me God's first name?""Sure" Forrest replies, "it's Andy.""Andy?" exclaims the exasperated and frustrated saint. "OK, I can understand how you came up with your answers to my first two questions, but just how in the world did you come up with the name of 'Andy' as the first name of God?""Shucks," Forrest replies, "that was the easiest one of all":ANDY WALKS WITH ME,ANDY TALKS WITH ME,ANDY TELLS ME I AM HIS OWN."St. Peter opens the Pearly Gates and says, "Run, Forrest, run!"

 

[twhite982]

Oh, pick me, pick me!!!

Oh, wait we are limited to only the LDS standard works? I may not be able to play then. I love to use scholarly research, both LDS and non-LDS. Oh, well, then I will sit on the sidelines and wait for the rules to change and then when they do and I get tagged then I'll play.

Doc

~

Doc, you can play too.

I thought that Baker was making a rule that we had to discuss LDS temples using only the Bible as scriptural support. I said ALL the standard works are game and heck if you wanna use scholarly research, the more the merrier.

Right now I don't have much time to comment, since I still have to prepare a lesson for tomorrow, but feel free to add your comments.

Baker would like to know is there a precedence for "secret" temple teachings.

Tom

 

[MormonFriend]

Ok,

Just remember: Christ came and fulfilled. Stick to the NT!! Thats where he clarified His word!!!

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John10:15 - 16)

If "other sheep" have heard His voice, then His word was clarified to them as well. If they wrote it down, just as the sheep of the N.T. did.

There were people (or sheep) all over the world. I would think that believing Christians would be excited at the notion that His word was left with other sheep as well. Do you have any concrete reason to rule out the possibility of Jesus refering to "other sheep" in a different part of the world? (One step at a time now, ... don't be hasty to condemn the Book of Mormon as of yet. Let's just consider that all the human race are God's children and have claim to God's grace and mercy.)

 

[unbound]

I find the LDS concepts perpostorous. What benefits would there have been to "jesus" showing up in the americas? How long do you think it would have taken for every person to be able to have knowledge of him in those days? Its almost like the LDS believe they had printing presses, and everyone had the same languages. Was "jesus" popping up everywhere within 20-30 miles? And if so did he produce the same maricles each and every time? Remember, we have to be equally fair to everyone....

 

[unbound]

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John10:15 - 16)

If "other sheep" have heard His voice, then His word was clarified to them as well. If they wrote it down, just as the sheep of the N.T. did.

There were people (or sheep) all over the world. I would think that believing Christians would be excited at the notion that His word was left with other sheep as well. Do you have any concrete reason to rule out the possibility of Jesus refering to "other sheep" in a different part of the world? (One step at a time now, ... don't be hasty to condemn the Book of Mormon as of yet. Let's just consider that all the human race are God's children and have claim to God's grace and mercy.)

I think its quite clear the "other sheep" are gentiles. Hang on. Ill find some scripture for you.

 

[MormonFriend]

I find the LDS concepts perpostorous. What benefits would there have been to "jesus" showing up in the americas? How long do you think it would have taken for every person to be able to have knowledge of him in those days? Its almost like the LDS believe they had printing presses, and everyone had the same languages. Was "jesus" popping up everywhere within 20-30 miles? And if so did he produce the same maricles each and every time? Remember, we have to be equally fair to everyone....

Also remember that history is unfolding every day, and according to God's time table. If Jesus "popped up" everywhere, I'm sure there will be records coming forth. That is unless many did not keep their records updated, as was one case in the Book of Mormon, where Jesus rebuked the leadership of one society for not having recorded some important prophecies.

You and I do not make the guidelines or conditons of which God's purposes unfold. As in the past, when God's major events came about, there have always been the skeptics and naysayers. And most of the time, the ways of God have been peculiar, perhaps perpostorous, to the "modern thinking" of the days.

As for Jesus coming to the Americas?
22 ¶ Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: (Genesis49:22)

What does this mean to you?

 

[unbound]

John 7:35
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 14:2
But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

Acts 14:27
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 15:12
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Acts 18:6
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:21
And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles

Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the
fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 15:9
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should
preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


This is only a start. Do you need some more "proof" that the "gentiles" are the other fold, which he sent the apostles out to teach?

 

[unbound]

Also remember that history is unfolding every day, and according to God's time table. If Jesus "popped up" everywhere, I'm sure there will be records coming forth. That is unless many did not keep their records updated, as was one case in the Book of Mormon, where Jesus rebuked the leadership of one society for not having recorded some important prophecies.

You and I do not make the guidelines or conditons of which God's purposes unfold. As in the past, when God's major events came about, there have always been the skeptics and naysayers. And most of the time, the ways of God have been peculiar, perhaps perpostorous, to the "modern thinking" of the days.

As for Jesus coming to the Americas?
22 ¶ Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: (Genesis49:22)

What does this mean to you?

Here it is in full context.......

Genesis 49
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.
5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.
14 Issachar is a strong *** couching down between two burdens:
15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.
16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
19 Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.
20 Out of Asher his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.
21 Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.
22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Im really not sure about this one, but Im trusting God will prove to me what it means.


"You and I do not make the guidelines or conditons of which God's purposes unfold. As in the past, when God's major events came about, there have always been the skeptics and naysayers. And most of the time, the ways of God have been peculiar, perhaps perpostorous, to the "modern thinking" of the days."

I agree. So with this reasoning, its possible there could have been only ONE Jesus appearance to save ALL of mankind.