The Lazarus timeline

[Always in His Presence]

So, offering your opinions/views/interpretations as “scripture” is not condescending to those of us who disagree with your opinions/views/interpretations? What am I supposed to think you are calling my opinions/views/interpretations?

And where do you get the idea that Jesus was just “two miles” away from Bethany? According to the context (v.10.40) Jesus was “beyond the Jordan” which could have put Him anywhere anywhere from Perea to Decapolis when he received word from Martha and Mary, which would have been perhaps two to four days (not two miles) journey from Bethany.

Where do you get some of these ideas?

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

When you have the ability to actually debate an issue without getting personal - I'll be more than happy to do so.

 

[probinson]

John 11:17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away.
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Unless you have scripture which disputes what I've shown, ......

Yes Balance. Where do you get these ideas from...

 

[importunity]

Joe,
I really love how you stick with the Word of God and not the ignorance of man. There are different types of wood and you can only do so much with each type. Some wood can do more then other wood, it’s more pliable. Then other wood is just petrified. It is not open to anything, when trying to use it for everyday use it is worthless. By going to places where the wood is more pliable you can get more accomplished. Don’t build your house with worthless wood. God has a higher call for the house being built.

 

[Tamara224]

Well I for one am glad to be excluded from Balance's building project.

I'll let God mold me.

I won't let Joe take a saw, nails and hammer to me, though. *Shudders*

 

[dkbwarrior]

This is really a fascinating thread. Although, much as I love my brother Balance, and agree with the general thrust of this thread, I'm not so certain where exactly Jesus was.

I've read the account, and have looked at a map of the area. It does say that Bethany was about 2 miles from Jerusalem, but in the context that it says that it appears to be referring to why they had so many friends and family there:

18Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
-John 11:18-19

The last whereabouts of Jesus put Him beyond Jordan:

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42And many believed on him there.
-John 10:39-42

This would have placed Jesus about twenty miles away from Bethany, at the traditional site of Johns baptism.

Therefore, even it they walked slowly, at the most it would have taken two days. Though it could have also been done in one.

However, I'm not so certain either way that it matters to the point of this thread.

If Jesus took two days to walk there, and we know that He tarried two days before He left, then Lazarus would have died the very day that the messenger arrived. It still meant that Jesus felt no need to hustle over there. Even if the messengers arrived in the morning, and Lazarus died in the afternoon, still Jesus would have known that He couldn't get there before He died, if it took one day to get there, or two.

Therefore, giving all the unknowables to the critics still gives us a timeline that supports the premise of this thread. That is, Jesus didn't just let Lazarus suffer and die for no reason. There was simply no way that Jesus could get there to stop him from dying, and was going to have to raise him from the dead in either case. Jesus already knew what He was going to have to do.

I wonder, is it easier to raise a man from the dead who has been dead two days, or four? Does it really matter?

Peace...

 

[JimB]

Originally Posted by Balance

John 11:17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away.

Unless you have scripture which disputes what I've shown, ...... ​

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Well, yeah! But we are not talking about Bethany, we are talking about where Jesus was when He received word of Lazarus’ illness. Jesus was not in Bethany when word reached Him (as you previously said), He was in Perea/Decapolis, 2 to 4 days away.

(BTW, Did you edit out the above statement from post #41?)

Anyhow, here's your post #37:

And yet..... you continue to go off topic and make things personal and condescending -

If the Word of God says Jesus waited two days before going to Bethany - which was 2 miles away - then I believe that Jesus waited two days and then went to Bethany - two miles away.

And when Jesus Got to Bethany - two miles away - Lazarus had been in the tomb for four days already - cause the Word of God says Lazarus had been in the tomb for four days.

It's not difficult to interpret that.

Now if you have something from scripture that contradicts that - I'm open.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[Svt4Him]

Nope. Like the OP, it is largely based on assumption. But it is a valid assumption since the context of John 11 (esp. vs.4 & 14) clearly shows that Jesus was somehow well aware (apparently, by revelation) of what was going on in distant Bethany. He knew (apparently, by revelation) Lazarus was sick and (apparently, by revelation) he would die but (apparently, by revelation) that his sickness and death was for the glorify of God (v. 4) and later He knew (apparently, by revelation) when Lazarus died (v. 14), even though He was miles away and without His cell phone. It is not too much for me to believe that He knew other details about the events in Bethany, enough to have healed Lazarus and spared him and his sisters of the death.

As for the timeline—it doesn’t matter. Jesus did not need to go to Bethany to heal Lazarus.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

Nice Jim, but you've not changed from saying Jesus knows everything (you in fact said "Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.") to narrowing the scope. This changes totally changes your alleged fact, and in fact agrees with what I've posted, as Jesus does not have full knowledge apart from what the Father showed Him, which is what I said, did not know everything as a man, which is contrary to what you originally said (despite your attempt to change it in this post), but at the end of the day, I agree Jesus did not need to go. Jesus was going to the centurions house, but his faith was great, so with a word the servant was healed.

So at the end of the day, your supposed fact is not a fact at all, unless you'd like to somehow dispute that you didn't infer Jesus knew everything as a man. Hard to admit when wrong, happens to the best of us.

 

[JimB]

Nice Jim, but you've not changed from saying Jesus knows everything (you in fact said "Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.") to narrowing the scope. This changes totally your alleged fact, and in fact agrees with what I've posted, as Jesus does not have full knowledge apart from what the Father showed Him, which is what I said, did not know everything as a man, which is contrary to what you originally said (despite your attempt to change it in this post), but at the end of the day, I agree Jesus did not need to go. Jesus was going to the centurions house, but his faith was great, so with a word the servant was healed.

So at the end of the day, your supposed fact is not a fact at all, unless you'd like to somehow dispute that you didn't infer Jesus knew everything as a man. Hard to admit when wrong, happens to the best of us.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Nice Jim, but you've not changed from saying Jesus knows everything (you in fact said "Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.") to narrowing the scope. This changes totally your alleged fact, and in fact agrees with what I've posted, as Jesus does not have full knowledge apart from what the Father showed Him, which is what I said, did not know everything as a man, which is contrary to what you originally said (despite your attempt to change it in this post), but at the end of the day, I agree Jesus did not need to go. Jesus was going to the centurions house, but his faith was great, so with a word the servant was healed.

So at the end of the day, your supposed fact is not a fact at all, unless you'd like to somehow dispute that you didn't infer Jesus knew everything as a man. Hard to admit when wrong, happens to the best of us.

Yeah, he never really addressed that, did he? Just kinda skipped over it.

Peace...

 

[JimB]

Yeah, he never really addressed that, did he? Just kinda skipped over it.

Peace...

Really? What was I asked that I didn’t answer, DK?

Or is this just another drive-by shooting.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[dkbwarrior]

Jesus was not in Bethany when word reached Him (as you previously said), He was in Perea/Decapolis, 2 to 4 days away.

How do you place Him that far North? According to the maps that I have, the traditional sight of Johns baptism is almost directly east from Bethany on the far side of the river Jordan, on the edge of Perea, about 20 miles from Bethany. That would be 1-2 days away, not 2-4. Decapolis was North of Perea, and would place Him quite a bit up the river from the traditional site.

Peace...

 

[JimB]

How do you place Him that far North? According to the maps that I have, the traditional sight of Johns baptism is almost directly east from Bethany on the far side of the river Jordan, on the edge of Perea, about 20 miles from Bethany. That would be 1-2 days away, not 2-4. Decapolis was North of Perea, and would place Him quite a bit up the river from the traditional site.

Peace...

Some Biblical scholars place John the Baptist baptizing penitents in the upper Jordan, nearer to the Sea of Galilee, the region from which the family of Jesus and John were from. I do not know where John baptized, tradition notwithstanding.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

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[dkbwarrior]

Really? What was I asked that I didn’t answer, DK?

Or is this just another drive-by shooting.

Mabey you missed his post. I was going to post the same response, when I read your first post in this thread, as it was so elementary, but he beat me to it. But here is a recap for you. You said the following:

It overlooks one important point. Jesus knew things about the situation that could have only come by special revelation. He knew, for example, the purpose behind the sickness and death of Lazarus …

4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

And He knew that Lazarus had already died by the time the message reached Him, something His disciples did not know and something that He could not have known except by revelation.

11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” 12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

So, is too much for you to believe that Jesus already knew Lazarus was sick unto death way before first word of his illness ever arrived and that Jesus’ presence to heal Lazarus would be needed and sent to Him? In fact, Jesus knew about the coming request long before the request ever arrived!! Didn’t He say that the Father knows what we have need of even before we ask Him (Matt. 6.8)and that the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does (John 5.20)?

Apparently, Jesus did not have to be in Bethany to be well aware of what was happening in Bethany.

And Jesus did not have to be in Bethany to heal Lazarus. He was quite adept at healing long distance (remember the Centurion’s sservant and the Nobleman’s son?)

Fact: Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.

Fact: Jesus knew all along that Lazarus was sick, that word would be sent to Him requesting His presence to heal his sick friend, that He would refuse to respond by waiting two more days, that Lazarus would succumb and die from the illness and that a great object lesson concerning the resurrection of the body would take place.

Fact: Had Jesus wanted to He would have already been in Bethany the moment Lazarus got sick so the request would not have taken so long to reach Him. He didn’t because He did not intend to answer the prayer for healing. He chose, instead, to allow Lazarus to die of the illness.

Svt4Him responded with this:

Jesus knows this when He was a man? Seems to be making a bit of a jump to give Jesus omniscience as a man, as I never see He had all knowledge, I see Him relying totally on the Father. So while it's a fact Jesus as God knows everything, I don't think it's a fact to say when He became lower than the angels He still knew everything. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it said Jesus grew in wisdom, not had it all.

It appears to me that you are confusing Jesus position and status at the right hand of the Father in His glorified state with His position and status as a man that had laid aside all of His divine perogatives and benefits to take on flesh. Jesus did not know everything as a man, He only knew what you and I can also know, that is, whatever the Holy Spirit chose to reveal to Him.

If He knew anything about Lazarus at all, it was because the Holy Spirit gave Him revelation of it, probably in response to Him asking about it after He got the message. (That is what you or I would do, right, if we heard some bad news right, go to God in prayer about it? I'm sure Jesus did also, and the Spirit responded by giving Him revelation.)

If Jesus already knew everything, He couldn't have grown in wisdom, as Luke says. He would have already known it all.

Peace...