The Laws of the Universe

[Nathan Poe]

It is about how we look at evidence. Science has looked at it assuming one key unlocks all. There is another key that works better. Expand your horizons.

Suppose we choose to stick with reality?

No. It only builds models on what it considers true....the present. That is why it does not know what it speaks of.

And you do?

 

[Juvenal]

Which key are we using, which key should we use, and why?

There's an appeal in being able to give an answer even when rational processes fail, and religious thinking provides such answers. Unfortunately, and not unexpectedly, the answers one arrives at using religious thinking are essentially arbitrary. As a result, and quite predictably, religious answers tend to contradict each other, depending on the tradition. The real crises occur when the answers are considered vital, however. With no means to distinguish between correct and incorrect religious answers, resolution is generally violent.

It's a foregone conclusion that when scientists resort to blows, it's because they've no data to do their arguing for them. Religion, likewise.

As ever, Jesse

 

[AV1611VET]

With no means to distinguish between correct and incorrect religious answers, resolution is generally violent.

Hi, Jesse!

Just out of curiosity, from a Taoist perspective, who or what was responsible for Hurricane Katrina?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Just out of curiosity, from a Taoist perspective, who or what was responsible for Hurricane Katrina?

I've dabbled in taoism a bit, and Jesse can certainly feel free to correct me on this, but according to Wikipedia:

"Tropical cyclones strengthen when water evaporated from the ocean is released as the saturated air rises, resulting in condensation of water vapor contained in the moist air. They are fueled by a different heat mechanism than other cyclonic windstorms such as nor'easters, European windstorms, and polar lows. The characteristic that separates tropical cyclones from other cyclonic systems is that at any height in the atmosphere, the center of a tropical cyclone will be warmer than its surrounds; a phenomenon called "warm core" storm systems."

Hurricane Katrina happened because that's what happens when you put heat, moisture, and air in a certain place under certain circumstances. Taoists don't look to someone/something to blame for what happens.

 

[sandwiches]

There's an appeal in being able to give an answer even when rational processes fail, and religious thinking provides such answers. Unfortunately, and not unexpectedly, the answers one arrives at using religious thinking are essentially arbitrary. As a result, and quite predictably, religious answers tend to contradict each other, depending on the tradition. The real crises occur when the answers are considered vital, however. With no means to distinguish between correct and incorrect religious answers, resolution is generally violent.

It's a foregone conclusion that when scientists resort to blows, it's because they've no data to do their arguing for them. Religion, likewise.

As ever, Jesse

Yep. In the end, it's the question that bothers me the most about religion: How do you verify that you're correct about your specific claims? Sadly, I usually get evasions or circular logic.

 

[Hespera]

Yep. In the end, it's the question that bothers me the most about religion: How do you verify that you're correct about your specific claims? Sadly, I usually get evasions or circular logic.

in my case i guess i will just to have to wait and see if allah is really going to hang me by my hair in a fire, for the sin of leaving my hair uncovered in public.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hurricane Katrina happened because that's what happens when you put heat, moisture, and air in a certain place under certain circumstances. Taoists don't look to someone/something to blame for what happens.

You're right -- you have dabbled in Taoism a bit.

 

[Juvenal]

Hi, Jesse!

Hi, umm, AV!?

Just out of curiosity, from a Taoist perspective, who or what was responsible for Hurricane Katrina?

From a Taoist perspective, the question doesn't occur. We don't have much use for nature gods. Or for creator gods, either, as far as that goes.

As ever, Jesse

 

[Juvenal]

Personally, though, I'm willing to go along with the majority, and blame the weatherman.

 

[AV1611VET]

From a Taoist perspective, the question doesn't occur. We don't have much use for nature gods. Or for creator gods, either, as far as that goes.

What about negative and positive energies?

 

[AV1611VET]

Personally, though, I'm willing to go along with the majority, and blame the weatherman.

I can't say as I blame you -- I know what it's like around here when high-profile televangelists say 'God did it'.

 

[Juvenal]

What about negative and positive energies?

What about them? I mean, if there's a relationship you're trying to draw with forces of nature, I'm missing it. We speak metaphorically of "energies." They shouldn't be confused with energies measured in megawatts.

One might as well think of Adam as a real flesh-and-blood, individual human.

As ever, Jesse

 

[AV1611VET]

What about them?

Where do you draw the line then, between real Taoism, and today's watered-down version, suitable for Myers-Briggs?

 

[Nathan Poe]

What about negative and positive energies?

It was Shakespeare who said, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." (Hamlet, II.ii)

It applies here, I think -- there's no such thing as "positive" or "negative" energy -- there is only energy.

Water can quench your thirst, or it can drown you. Fire can keep you warm, or it can burn you. Does this make water or fire positive or negative?

Admittedly, I'm getting more Zen than Taoist here, but the fact is, "positive" and "negative" are artificial constructs, created by people (such as yourself) who believe that these things exist only to serve you, and cry "negative!" when you try to use them as something besdies what they are.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Where do you draw the line then, between real Taoism, and today's watered-down version, suitable for Myers-Briggs?

Pretending to be an expert in Taoism now, AV? I'd ask why you'd bother, but I already know the answer.

 

[Michael]

It was Shakespeare who said, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." (Hamlet, II.ii)

It applies here, I think -- there's no such thing as "positive" or "negative" energy -- there is only energy.

Water can quench your thirst, or it can drown you. Fire can keep you warm, or it can burn you. Does this make water or fire positive or negative?

Admittedly, I'm getting more Zen than Taoist here, but the fact is, "positive" and "negative" are artificial constructs, created by people (such as yourself) who believe that these things exist only to serve you, and cry "negative!" when you try to use them as something besdies what they are.

Note to self: Remind me not to let a Zen or Taoist enthusiast hook up the jumper cables when I help them jump start their car. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

 

[Juvenal]

Where do you draw the line then, between real Taoism, and today's watered-down version, suitable for Myers-Briggs?

I consult the prophets of Taoism, of course.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? Orthodoxies, perhaps? In a mystic tradition? That makes no sense.

Taoism doesn't draw lines; it is the "far-reaching return."

As ever, Jesse

 

[Nathan Poe]

I consult the prophets of Taoism, of course.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? Orthodoxies, perhaps? In a mystic tradition? That makes no sense.

Welcome to AV's world -- he doesn't have to make sense as long as he can convince himself he's superior.

 

[Tiberius]

It is about how we look at evidence. Science has looked at it assuming one key unlocks all. There is another key that works better. Expand your horizons.

Still waiting for the actual evidence here, Dad...

No. It only builds models on what it considers true....the present. That is why it does not know what it speaks of.

A position you have reached because of your mighty evidence which you do not provide.

 

[Tiberius]

Hi, Jesse!

Just out of curiosity, from a Taoist perspective, who or what was responsible for Hurricane Katrina?

Always with the blame, eh, AV? If something bad happens, it has to be for SOME reason!