The Lawless One Being Revealed In Mankind

[HannibalFlavius]

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no one deceive you by any means; For that day{day of the Lord} will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God........Do you remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; ONLY HE WHO NOW RESTRAINS WILL DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming.

The coming of the lawless one is according to the workings of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.............




It is just amazing to me that people will take this scripture and try and paint a picture of an Anti-Christ to be revealed.

It is in no way talking about a single individual, it is talking about the man of sin in mankind.

We are the Temple of the Lord and we house the spirit of God, the law is written upon our hearts.

This scripture talks about a great falling away from the laws of God and his commandments.

People are walking temples and when they go around teaching against God's laws and his worship system, they are sitting in their temple opposing the very word of God and all that is worshipped of God.

They actually think that they have the authority to change or adjust the word of God to their liking, and they have become lawless.

When the day of the Lord comes, these lawless people who have been so bold to oppose the commandments of the Lord will be revealed and destroyed with the brightness of the coming of the Lord.

Jesus said that if you do not keep the least of the commandments and you teach others not to keep it that you will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.....

This vivid detailed warning has been given to all those people who would become lawless and stand against the worship system of God, and the very word of God, and they still oppose God.

Even though this lawlessness is talked about so much, Christians still stand in their lawlessness very proud and this is something I will never understand.

Everyone is looking for some dark evil Anti-Christ so that they can point their finger and say,'' There he is.''

But more often than not, The person should go look in the mirror if they are opposing the worship system of God and God's instructions for worshipping.

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no one deceive you by any means; For that day{day of the Lord} will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God........Do you remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; ONLY HE WHO NOW RESTRAINS WILL DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming.

The coming of the lawless one is according to the workings of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.............

It is just amazing to me that people will take this scripture and try and paint a picture of an Anti-Christ to be revealed.

It is in no way talking about a single individual, it is talking about the man of sin in mankind.

Two questions.

1. What does perdition mean?
2. Why was Judas called the son of perdition as well ?

Doug

 

[Bible2]

HannibalFlavius said in post 1:

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be (as is sometimes claimed) the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30). Also, there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

HannibalFlavius said in post 1:

It is just amazing to me that people will take this scripture and try and paint a picture of an Anti-Christ to be revealed.

Any person is an antichrist who denies that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the first century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

But the existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict that there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who's commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict that there's an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who's called the Son of God (John 20:31).

The idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist", in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity", in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

The man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He's the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Luciferian miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

HannibalFlavius said in post 1:

We are the Temple of the Lord and we house the spirit of God, the law is written upon our hearts.

While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

HannibalFlavius said in post 1:

This scripture talks about a great falling away from the laws of God and his commandments.

Are you thinking of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law commandments? If so, note that on Jesus' cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

HannibalFlavius said in post 1:

Jesus said that if you do not keep the least of the commandments and you teach others not to keep it that you will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.....

Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

Jesus shows in the Sermon on the Mount how his New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), whereas Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), whereas Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), whereas Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife isn't a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while his New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it's also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), whereas Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), whereas Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), whereas Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), whereas Jesus allowed his disciples to work on the sabbath and said they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus' New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and they also exceed in righteousness those who try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

 

[Bible2]

Douggg said in post 2:

Why was Judas called the son of perdition as well ?

The Antichrist won't have to be Judas (as is sometimes claimed), simply because they're both called "the" son of perdition. For the Antichrist is called "the" son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) only in the context of his being the only unsaved person who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declare himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). And Judas was called "the" son of perdition (John 17:12) only in the context of his being the only one of the 12 apostles to lose his salvation, to draw back to perdition (cf. Hebrews 10:39). Every unsaved person is a son of perdition/damnation/destruction (Greek: apoleia, G0684) in that every unsaved person will end up suffering eternal perdition/damnation/destruction (2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 2:1,3; Philippians 1:28, Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9b-10, Matthew 7:13).

 

[yedida]

Looks like Bible2 has read the Left Behind series

 

[Douggg]

The Antichrist won't have to be Judas (as is sometimes claimed), simply because they're both called "the" son of perdition. For the Antichrist is called "the" son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) only in the context of his being the only unsaved person who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declare himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). And Judas was called "the" son of perdition (John 17:12) only in the context of his being the only one of the 12 apostles to lose his salvation, to draw back to perdition (cf. Hebrews 10:39). Every unsaved person is a son of perdition/damnation/destruction (Greek: apoleia, G0684) in that every unsaved person will end up suffering eternal perdition/damnation/destruction (2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 2:1,3; Philippians 1:28, Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9b-10, Matthew 7:13).

The Antichrist will not be Judas. They are both called the son of perdition because Judas, a Jew, was temporarily entered into by Satan to carry out the act of betrayal.

The Antichrist will temporarily be entered into by Satan to carry out a likewise similar act of betrayal. God will have him killed for it and in His disdain for him will have him kicked out of the grave because he destroys his land and kills his people - he will be a Jew.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

 

[Douggg]

Looks like Bible2 has read the Left Behind series

No, Bible2 thinks that the Antichrist will come from a different part of the world than Nicolas Carpathia of the Left Behind series. The Left Behind series has the Antichrist coming out of Romania, one of the Balkan states, of former western breakup kingdom of the Greek empire. They could be right on that particular issue.


Doug

 

[visionary]

There is enough events going on preparing the world to cry out to whatever type of messiah their faith envisions. Satan can give them the right mix to satisfy that need.

 

[Interplanner]

Hannibal,
the original interp problem here is that Paul is speaking of the standing temple, and about what would happen in 66+, because the apostles regarded Mt 24A and //s to be about the zealot revolution, as Dan 9 had said, building on Dan 8. All he meant was that the rumor that the Day of the Lord was false because this awful event (or period) had to happen in Judea first. That makes the overall message consistent with my timestamp belief about Mt 24:29: the material before that is about the 1st century strife in Judea. After that, it is about the Return and applies worldwide. Their expectation was that the Return was right after, but they also knew only the Father would finalize.

For someone as literal as you are about the last chapters of Isaiah or Ezekiel, you've darted off rather whimsically away from historical meaning and into the lush fields of 'we are the temple' etc.. The odd thing about that is that is what I had hoped you would see was true of Isaiah or Ezek!

Book 4 of Josephu's JEWISH WAR will give you some idea what John of Gischala was like. After the revolutionaries (the 'leistes' of Lk 19:46, usually trans. 'robbers' which is incomplete) had control, they had major in-fighting which was very stupid because they lost huge resources. John won in the end, and was a hideous person.

No one reading Mt 24A & //s in the 1st century would have any reason to look beyond those times, nor have the 'luxury' of thinking abstractly about events 2-3000 years in the future.

 

[Douggg]

Visonary,

40, 024 posts!

 

[visionary]

Visonary,

40, 024 posts!

Yeah.. it means I am very active on the forum.. for a lond time.....

 

[ancientsoul]

...

 

[Striker427]

[FONT=&quot]The son of perdition[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The son of perdition is also the sons of disobedience. A son of disobedience is one that sets his mind on what is contrary to the mind of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Why would Jesus rebuke Peter and say get behind me, Satan? Jesus does tell us, because his mind was not set on the interests of God, but instead on the interest of man. Here Jesus tells them that the old man or our sin nature must be denied and the cross denotes dying to the flesh.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mar 8:33[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and *said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mar 8:34[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And then Jesus goes to show if we wish to save our life (old nature) we will perish, but if we lose our life (old nature) for the sake of Jesus and the gospel we will be saved. What profit do you gain if you do not die to your old nature? You could gain the whole world, but still forfeit your soul. Now remember Jesus is talking to His people here.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mar 8:36[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mar 8:37[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mar 8:38[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So what is the gospel that Jesus is talking about here? It is the dying of our old self and living to the new self. Moving away from darkness and entering into the light. For the kingdom of God is within you and you are the temple of God. If man sets his interests up in the temple what does this do?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Who restrains God? Is it not the Spirit of God? Is not lawlessness at work in the son of disobedience? So how can the spirit of God be taken out of the way? We are sealed with the spirit of God. But we must look at other scripture for this answer. To show you that the scripture is a witness to itself we can see that what we are saved from is the wrath of God, but if we continue to sin this is what happens.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Heb 10:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 10:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So if we continue to go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Now when Jesus died on the cross He took the curse of death from you. Cursed is anyone who is hanged on a tree.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gal 3:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So if the sacrifice is annulled. There no longer remains a sacrifice. Then the curse and the law are reinstated, because we chose our sinful nature over God. He who restrains the wrath of God is removed from you is the Spirit of God and this is what happens to us when we put our interests ahead of Gods interests.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Th 2:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So what is the truth? One must die to his old sin nature and live to the new nature of Jesus Christ and bare the fruit of it. We have been given the Spirit of Grace to help us to overcome our old sin nature and live to the new nature of Christ and bare the fruit of it. So grace is the power of God given to us to master sin and mercy is given to us through Christ so that when we sin and when we repent of that sin we are given mercy and we are put back under the Grace of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gen 4:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rom 6:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes we are under grace, the power given to us so that we could overcome sin and master it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These nations are inside of you, so where is the kingdom of God? It is inside of you. When we overcome sin with the help of the Spirit we receive authority over those places in our lives. What we overcome are the dark natures that are within us. We do not battle flesh and blood, but instead principalities and the powers of darkness. Who do we have that can help us?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Deu 7:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "You shall not dread them, for the LORD your God is in your midst, a great and awesome God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deu 7:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deu 7:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "But the LORD your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deu 7:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is a parrable showing what happens to us with the power of the helper. We do not know the day nor the hour that our Lord will return to us so be ready.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What has been entrusted to us? The Spirit God has been entrusted to us. Our seal. The talents are the nations within us.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Lord gives us each to our own ability the power to overcome sin. This starts out with a few talents, but when we overcome we will receive more victories in life and we will become a complete person. But if we do not believe and have faith that this can be done then this is what happens to those who put the flesh above God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 25:30[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The bible is a witness unto itself. Do not set the interests of the flesh (old sin nature) up into the temple of the Lord for this destroys the temple and God destroys the man who destroys the temple. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Co 6:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 6:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1Co 3:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So we are the temple, act accordingly use the talents given to us wisely and be one with the Lord. You can do it, because you have one greater than yourself to help you to overcome your sinful desires.[/FONT]

The lawless one will be revealed.

 

[Douggg]

[FONT=&quot]The son of perdition[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The son of perdition is also the sons of disobedience. A son of disobedience is one that sets his mind on what is contrary to the mind of God.

The son of perdition, the man of sin in 2thessalonians2 claims to be God. So it is not Christians leading a less than Christian life.


Doug
[/FONT]

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The son of perdition, the man of sin in 2thessalonians2 claims to be God. So it is not Christians leading a less than Christian life.


Doug
[/font][/color]
[/size]

Doug, When a person tells another person that keeping the commandments of God are wrong, they ARE saying that they are God.

Christianity became a religion with a man as head of a church who says that he has the authority to change the word of God as he sees fit. He outlawed the ways of God and persecuted and killed people who would follow the word of God.

A Christian decides himself whether he will follow the word of God or go around telling people that he has changed the word of God.

Christians tell me everyday how they stand against the laws of God and how a person shouldn't keep the Sabbaths of God or the feasts of God because they are not for gentiles to keep.

YOU are a Temple and YOU are the one who decides if YOU will stand against the laws of God, YOU are the one who sits in the place of God and stands against everything that is called of God.

YOU therefore prove that you are God because YOU think you have the authority to change his word.

Tell me, do you keep the least of the commandments and teach others to keep them, or do you not keep even the least of the commandments and teach others not to keep them?

Why would somebody stand against the word of God?

But the majority do.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Hannibal,
the original interp problem here is that Paul is speaking of the standing temple, and about what would happen in 66+, because the apostles regarded Mt 24A and //s to be about the zealot revolution, as Dan 9 had said, building on Dan 8. All he meant was that the rumor that the Day of the Lord was false because this awful event (or period) had to happen in Judea first. That makes the overall message consistent with my timestamp belief about Mt 24:29: the material before that is about the 1st century strife in Judea. After that, it is about the Return and applies worldwide. Their expectation was that the Return was right after, but they also knew only the Father would finalize.

For someone as literal as you are about the last chapters of Isaiah or Ezekiel, you've darted off rather whimsically away from historical meaning and into the lush fields of 'we are the temple' etc.. The odd thing about that is that is what I had hoped you would see was true of Isaiah or Ezek!

Book 4 of Josephu's JEWISH WAR will give you some idea what John of Gischala was like. After the revolutionaries (the 'leistes' of Lk 19:46, usually trans. 'robbers' which is incomplete) had control, they had major in-fighting which was very stupid because they lost huge resources. John won in the end, and was a hideous person.

No one reading Mt 24A & //s in the 1st century would have any reason to look beyond those times, nor have the 'luxury' of thinking abstractly about events 2-3000 years in the future.

Interplanner, Here is what you said in the thread,'' The wealth of the nations will be brought to their feet.''

YOU SAID THIS,Quote--''Isaiah's material needs to be interp'd by the NT; it is not Israel as you know it.'' {Unquote}



But I have never been wrong about who Israel is, you are the one with a problem in not knowing who Israel is.


Now I am going to tell you how the cow eats the cabbage, but I already know that you will say,'' The cow doesn't eat the cabbage that way.''

Nevertheless, I will be right.

But I'm going to tell you specifically why I will be right!

I AM of Israel!

I HAVE BEEN WARNED OF THE ANTI_CHRIST!


What does the warning say about what the anti-Christ will do?

The Anti-Christ comes SPECIFICALLY to turn the children of Israel away from their culture, traditions and instruction that God has demanded Israel to keep.

Antiochus Epiphanies did just that!

He built a gymnasium and attempted to turn the children of Israel into Romans and Pagans.

He SPECIFICALLY came to CHANGE THE TIMES AND THE SEASONS OF GOD.

The children of Israel follow their God and his Sabbaths and feasts which are appointed visitation days of the Messiah given to us to watch.


Antiochus stood up a statue of Zeus in the Temple and he sacrificed a swine on the alter of God.

Jesus refers to this in Matthew 24 in discussing the LAWLESSNESS.

'' Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation{that Antiochus placed} spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy place.'' {whoever reads, let him understand.}'' then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
''Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house.
And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes..........

What does being on the rooftop or in the field mean to a gentile who despises the beautiful culture of God's traditions?

I saw in the 70's where all those Christians when to the rooftop because they thought Christ was coming.

The gentile who shuns the ways and traditions of God doesn't know any Jewish idioms, instead he invents a whole science of an Antichrist and what the antichrist is supposed to do.

The gentile invents a rapture to fit into his science of some dark secret antichrist who couldn't possibly be himself.

The cow eats the cabbage very simply---The antichrist comes to change the times and the seasons of God, his Sabbaths, his traditions, his rituals and his laws.

The gentile who opposes the word of God and his Sabbaths and feasts, and who sits in his temple calling the law of God wrong, and he himself is admittedly LAWLESS and PROUD OF IT.

But in talking about an antichrist who comes to stand against the law and the times and seasons, the gentile thinks that this has nothing to do with him.

It must be somebody else who becomes lawless and seeks to change the word of God?

It must be somebody else who changed the Sabbaths and feasts of the Messiah?

It must be somebody else who tries to lead the children of Israel away from the instructions of God?

Must be a dark secret Jew devil that is going to try and turn the children of Israel away from the instructions of God.

And who do you say Israel is?

Just everybody who teaches against keeping the commandments?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The Antichrist will not be Judas. They are both called the son of perdition because Judas, a Jew, was temporarily entered into by Satan to carry out the act of betrayal.

The Antichrist will temporarily be entered into by Satan to carry out a likewise similar act of betrayal. God will have him killed for it and in His disdain for him will have him kicked out of the grave because he destroys his land and kills his people - he will be a Jew.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

This is what I'm talking about right here.....

This mentality and science being made about some Jew coming to turn the Jews away from their God.

Its beyond ridiculous bro, in so many ways, it is ridicurous.



This ridiculous science looking for a Jewish Anti-Christ that is going to make people receive a mark on their head for 666.


The gentile acts as if being marked between your eyes and receiving a mark on your right hand is some new thing in the world, when its in fact the oldest and well know tradition since the first Passover but it goes back even further than that.

But to the gentile who reads Revelation having no knowledge of Jewish tradition, thinks that Revelation is making up some new idea that has never been around before?


The gentile reads about the son of perdition as if the idea is something brand new when in fact its been around forever.

That's why the gentile needs the Jew and the Jew needs the gentile.

The Jew doesn't read the New Testament and the gentile can't read the New Testament.

The entire book is about God's traditions, rituals, feast days, Sabbaths, culture, covenants, and people.

But this you say about a Jew being an anti-Christ is ridiculous, insulting, completely wrong with nothing at all to back it up, but yet, there it is.


Must be some Jew huh?


This furthers the cause against God's people and it is a shame to see anybody say it, but yet I have seen many people say this with no remorse.

Everyone who thinks this and teaches others to think it will indeed develop a view against the people of God and that view will strengthen and strengthen until it is Anti-Semitic, and it is already anti-Semitic in nature. Teach them to look at Jews as if they are Satan.

But God has blessed the Jews in these days and they will never be uprooted again, all who stand against them will fall.

God is coming to strengthen the house of Judah first, but I wonder what many Christians will think when they see how God has anointed them.

They will more likely point saying,'' Look, signs and wonders.'' the devil is in them, they heal by the power of Satan.''

Its the same thing they said of Jesus, only the positions are reversed now.

 

[ancientsoul]

...

 

[Douggg]

[FONT=&quot]The son of perdition[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The son of perdition is also the sons of disobedience. A son of disobedience is one that sets his mind on what is contrary to the mind of God.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Why would Jesus rebuke Peter and say get behind me, Satan? Jesus does tell us, because his mind was not set on the interests of God, but instead on the interest of man. Here Jesus tells them that the old man or our sin nature must be denied and the cross denotes dying to the flesh. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT="]
No, Peter was not called the son of perdition. Only Judas was because of his lost condition. He life ended, while the disciples lives continued to see the resurrected Christ.

Judas was entered into by Satan. Satan is a singular individual, who does not have omnipresent. So it is not talking about Christians, nor about multitudes of people. Nor any Christian; Judas was not a Christian.

It was at the last supper, and Judas going out to betray Jesus, that Jesus in his prayers in John 17 referred to him as the" son of perdition".
[/FONT]

Doug

 

[Douggg]

Doug, When a person tells another person that keeping the commandments of God are wrong, they ARE saying that they are God.

You are launching off into some argument over the keeping of the Sabbath, using 2thess2 to support your view. But 2thess2 is talking about the son of perdition - which is tied to Judas, who is the only person in the bible to be called the son of perdition, besides the coming person in 2thess2.

Judas was not a Christian. He was a Jew. Judas was called the son of perdition in Jesus's prayers in John 17 as the son of perdition as he went out to betray Jesus. The son of perdition has to do with betrayal, and that he is Jew, who is not a Christian.

Doug