The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

[expos4ever]

Of course God's law is in force today if there was no law there would be no knowledge of GOOD and EVIL.

Holy Spirit. Simple.

 

[expos4ever]

It is beyond astonishing that some people believe that, even though we have the Holy Spirit within, we still need the Law.

How impotent would this Spirit be if it could not provide moral guidance?

 

[HARK!]

It is beyond astonishing that some people believe that, even though we have the Holy Spirit within, we still need the Law.

If the Ruach Ha'Kodesh is leading you; you will not stray from the law.

 

[expos4ever]

If the Ruach Ha'Kodesh is leading you; you will not stray from the law.

You are not dealing with my point and are misleading (perhaps without intent) others.

First of all, you will stray far from the Law of Moses since, presumably, you are not stoning adulterers and you are not sacrificing animals. But that is another debate.

I suspect you are trying to imply that we still need to look to the Law for moral guidance. This is completely at odds with what Paul writes and this explains why you appear to question the authority of Paul (in other threads).

Let me be crystal clear: yes, if you have the Spirit, you will not be murdering, or committing adultery. But the Law is no longer needed - it has been clearly set aside.

 

[Kaon]

This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

Exo 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD has said will we do."

Exo 24:7-8 "And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

The elect had to make a promise of value in that covenant, therefore it was considered God's marriage-contract with Israel, and God (the "husband") promised Israel abundance of blessing in the land IF they obeyed ALL that God had commanded though Moses - but curses and exile from the land if they disobeyed - and because they are incapable of obeying, all that the law brings is curses and death.

Also, a marriage covenant is only "everlasting" until the 'wife' breaks the covenant, and as God said through Jeremiah, the "wife" had broken the covenant:

Both the ten Northern tribes and the tribe of Judah continuously broke the covenant, but in His mercy God promised a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah which would NOT BE ACCORDING to the covenant He made with them at Sinai:

Jer 31:31-32 "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, says the LORD."

"Though I was a husband unto them" is the same as saying that though God remained faithful to His vows, the "wife" had continuously been unfaithful, and had therefore broken the covenant - and so their new moons, sabbaths and feasts became utterly distasteful to God, to the point that God even calls Israel "Sodom and Gomorrah":

Isa 1:10-14 "Hear the word of the LORD, all of you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, all of you people of Gomorrah.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

When all of you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

UNFIT FOR PURPOSE:

The Covenant God made with Israel "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" had proved unfit for purpose in two ways:

1. It was unfit for purpose in terms of God having an everlasting covenant relationship with His elect; and
2. It was unfit for purpose to bring life and righteousness to God's elect:

Rom 7:12-14: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

The Law and the covenant at Sinai was unfit for purpose not because God was not faithful and capable, but because His elect were neither faithful nor capable.

THE TWO COVENANTS RATIFIED BY BLOOD - THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

Blood has to do with sacrifice for sins and forgiveness for sins. The first covenant, given at Sinai, was ratified with blood:

Exo 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

Likewise the New Covenant was ratified by blood - but not with the blood of bulls and goats - with Christ's blood:

Mat 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

FOREVER

The New Covenant is everlasting, the old covenant is gone:

Heb 8:13 "In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away."

COMMANDMENTS IN THE LAW WHICH CONTAINED THE WORDS "EVERLASTING" AND "FOREVER"

.. are done away with and cease to exist - BECAUSE THEY WERE BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE AND THE COVENANT WHICH WAS BASED UPON THEM HAS BEEN REPLACED.

INSULTING THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT

It's an insult to God the Father and His Messiah who is Christ the Lord to seek to keep alive commandments (such as sabbath-keeping) which are part of the Old Covenant and have been done away with because the "wife" broke the covenant.

When God used the words "everlasting" and "forever" when He gave the Law and its commandments to His elect at Sinai, it's because HE was faithful and capable of keeping HIS vows - and IF (ONLY IF) the "wife" in that marriage-covenant had remained obedient and faithful, would that covenant INCLUDING ALL ITS COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH IT WAS BASED, have remained "everlasting" and "forever".

So to the question: "Whatever happened to forever?" - those who belong to Christ know the answer - "forever" and "everlasting" in that covenant's commandments WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, and so the entire covenant needed replacing.

God would NEVER have first promised the New Covenant and Christ would NOT have come to shed His blood as a remission of sins if that covenant and those commandments were fit for purpose - but they are NOT fit for purpose.

Jesus said:

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

He said,

Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

NOT A LICENSE TO SIN

DEAD TO THE LAW

Rom 7:6 "But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST HAVE DIED TO THE LAW BECAUSE CHRIST ABOLISHED IT IN HIS FLESH WHEN HE DIED:

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them;"

DEAD TO SIN:

Rom 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know all of you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So the apostle John could write,

1John 2:1-3 "My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments."

WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

1. LOVE THE BRETHREN

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

2. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

Matt 19:17-19 "And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

He said to Him, Which?

Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

3. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (IT'S PART OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR)

Matt 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

HOW DO WE KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?

Jesus told us how:

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

AGAIN, IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Turning away from grace back to the Law and commandments of Moses will cause you to fall from grace:

John 1:17 "For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Why would the Most High renege on His agreements? Why would the Most High make law "unfit" for man?

 

[klutedavid]

This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

Exo 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD has said will we do."

Exo 24:7-8 "And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

The elect had to make a promise of value in that covenant, therefore it was considered God's marriage-contract with Israel, and God (the "husband") promised Israel abundance of blessing in the land IF they obeyed ALL that God had commanded though Moses - but curses and exile from the land if they disobeyed - and because they are incapable of obeying, all that the law brings is curses and death.

Also, a marriage covenant is only "everlasting" until the 'wife' breaks the covenant, and as God said through Jeremiah, the "wife" had broken the covenant:

Both the ten Northern tribes and the tribe of Judah continuously broke the covenant, but in His mercy God promised a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah which would NOT BE ACCORDING to the covenant He made with them at Sinai:

Jer 31:31-32 "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, says the LORD."

"Though I was a husband unto them" is the same as saying that though God remained faithful to His vows, the "wife" had continuously been unfaithful, and had therefore broken the covenant - and so their new moons, sabbaths and feasts became utterly distasteful to God, to the point that God even calls Israel "Sodom and Gomorrah":

Isa 1:10-14 "Hear the word of the LORD, all of you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, all of you people of Gomorrah.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

When all of you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

UNFIT FOR PURPOSE:

The Covenant God made with Israel "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" had proved unfit for purpose in two ways:

1. It was unfit for purpose in terms of God having an everlasting covenant relationship with His elect; and
2. It was unfit for purpose to bring life and righteousness to God's elect:

Rom 7:12-14: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

The Law and the covenant at Sinai was unfit for purpose not because God was not faithful and capable, but because His elect were neither faithful nor capable.

THE TWO COVENANTS RATIFIED BY BLOOD - THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

Blood has to do with sacrifice for sins and forgiveness for sins. The first covenant, given at Sinai, was ratified with blood:

Exo 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

Likewise the New Covenant was ratified by blood - but not with the blood of bulls and goats - with Christ's blood:

Mat 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

FOREVER

The New Covenant is everlasting, the old covenant is gone:

Heb 8:13 "In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away."

COMMANDMENTS IN THE LAW WHICH CONTAINED THE WORDS "EVERLASTING" AND "FOREVER"

.. are done away with and cease to exist - BECAUSE THEY WERE BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE AND THE COVENANT WHICH WAS BASED UPON THEM HAS BEEN REPLACED.

INSULTING THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT

It's an insult to God the Father and His Messiah who is Christ the Lord to seek to keep alive commandments (such as sabbath-keeping) which are part of the Old Covenant and have been done away with because the "wife" broke the covenant.

When God used the words "everlasting" and "forever" when He gave the Law and its commandments to His elect at Sinai, it's because HE was faithful and capable of keeping HIS vows - and IF (ONLY IF) the "wife" in that marriage-covenant had remained obedient and faithful, would that covenant INCLUDING ALL ITS COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH IT WAS BASED, have remained "everlasting" and "forever".

So to the question: "Whatever happened to forever?" - those who belong to Christ know the answer - "forever" and "everlasting" in that covenant's commandments WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, and so the entire covenant needed replacing.

God would NEVER have first promised the New Covenant and Christ would NOT have come to shed His blood as a remission of sins if that covenant and those commandments were fit for purpose - but they are NOT fit for purpose.

Jesus said:

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

He said,

Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

NOT A LICENSE TO SIN

DEAD TO THE LAW

Rom 7:6 "But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST HAVE DIED TO THE LAW BECAUSE CHRIST ABOLISHED IT IN HIS FLESH WHEN HE DIED:

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them;"

DEAD TO SIN:

Rom 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know all of you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So the apostle John could write,

1John 2:1-3 "My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments."

WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

1. LOVE THE BRETHREN

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

2. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

Matt 19:17-19 "And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

He said to Him, Which?

Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

3. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (IT'S PART OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR)

Matt 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

HOW DO WE KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?

Jesus told us how:

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

AGAIN, IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Turning away from grace back to the Law and commandments of Moses will cause you to fall from grace:

John 1:17 "For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.

A very good summation of the whole truth that the scripture projects. This presentation lacks the application of an interpretation to the scripture which so often masks the real truth. Well done and your understanding of the scripture is solid.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have evaded my argument. And nothing you posted shows that we still need the Law. Yes, the Law did give knowledge of sin, and it may still may be able to so.

Ok dear friend let me humor you. Please prove to me how I have evaded your argument when I have proven context that you claim I did not provide. Also please show me where I have ever said we are justified by the law which you are claiming that I know I have never said (strawman)? I will wait. If you cannot prove the above why are you making claims and arguments no one is making? I directly answered through the scriptures all aspects of your argument. Now please show me how I have not.

But we don't need to refer to the Law, we have the Spirit to guide us now: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Yes and no. God's Spirit works through the Word of God not outside of the Word of God. God's Spirit works through the written Word of God as it is the Spirit of truth and God's Word is truth that the Spirit of God works through *JOHN 6:63; JOHN 17:17. If you have no Word you have no faith *ROMANS 10:17; If you have no Word and no Faith than you have no Spirit as the Spirit of God works through the Word of God not outside of it as it is the power behind the Word of God in those who believe *1 JOHN 5:4; ROMANS 1:16. No one has God's Spirit if they do not have God's Word and believe it as the Spirit works through the Word of God as we believe. According to the scriptures no one has God's Spirit if they are knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and neither do they know God. Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.

You evaded my argument about Romans 3, which was that this "but now" shows that Paul has effectively put Romans 3:20 in the rear-view mirror. Remember: he says the following almost immediately after verse 20: But now apart [k]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Plus you also appear to make the error that the Gentiles are subject to the Law. They most certainly were not and I challenge you to name even one reputable scholar who believes otherwise.

Ok let's look at your claim that the "but now" means that there is no more law by adding in the context your leaving out.

ROMANS 3:19-31
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAID, IT SAID TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
[20], THEREFORE BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED IN HIS SIGHT: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Note: that from the earlier post Paul shows that all the world is guilty before God and proves both JEW and GENTILE are all under the law guilty before God of sin and has spent all this time showing that we cannot be justified by the law because through the law is the kbowledge of what sin is v9-20.

[21], BUT NOW THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WITHOUT THE LAW IS MANIFESTED, BEING WITNESSED BY THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.
[22], EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST TO ALL AND ON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE: for there is no difference:
[23], FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD;
[24], BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS:
[25], WHOM GOD HAS SET FORTH TO BE A PROPITIATION THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, TO DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;
[26], To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.
[27], Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No: but by the law of faith.
[28], THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.
[29], Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[30], Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
[31], DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

As shown above when looking at all the context we can see that when PAUL is saying "BUT NOW" in v21 he is not saying God's LAW is abolished he is saying we are not justifed by the law we are justified by faith. This is proven beyond all doubt in v31 so there is no confusion on the subject when PAUL states unequivically that faith does not abolish God's law it establsihes God's law.

...................

CONCLUSION: Context matters and you did not provide any that has led you do an incorrect interpretation of "BUT NOW" being applied to God's 10 commandment being abolished when the context show that the "BUT NOW" is in reference to being justified by faith without the works of the law. There is a difference. As can be shown above nothing has been evaded. All the scriptures and context has been laid out for all to see showing why your interpretation is in error.

Hope this is helpful.

Blessings.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are making my case for me - "I would not have known" sin without the Law.Past tense. Past tense.

Nonsense. Your making the case for me. All sin is past tense. We have to break God's LAW before sin is committed.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Holy Spirit. Simple.

God's Spirit works through the Word of God not outside of the Word of God. God's Spirit works through the written Word of God as it is the Spirit of truth and God's Word is truth that the Spirit of God works through *JOHN 6:63; JOHN 17:17. If you have no Word you have no faith *ROMANS 10:17; If you have no Word and no Faith than you have no Spirit as the Spirit of God works through the Word of God not outside of it as it is the power behind the Word of God in those who believe *1 JOHN 5:4; ROMANS 1:16. No one has God's Spirit if they do not have God's Word and believe it as the Spirit works through the Word of God as we believe. According to the scriptures no one has God's Spirit if they are knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and neither do they know God. Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.

Hope this is helpful

 

[Josheb]

This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them....................

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Good op but awfully long. Spotty in a couple of places but overall good.

What do you do with the facts a) nearly everything Jesus taught can be found in the OT, and b) the epistolary repeatably and often appeals to the Law of Moses?

 

[Josheb]

Nonsense. Your making the case for me. All sin is past tense. We have to break God's LAW before sin is committed.

that is an incomplete view of sin. The Bible lists three specifics and one overarching condition for sin.

Sin is lawlessness (1 Jn. 3:4).
Sin is any unrighteousness (1 Jn. 5:17).
Sin is anything not done in faith (Rom. 14:23).
Sin is imperfection (Mt. 5:48).​

So, no, you don't have to break God's law before a sin is committed. The word "sin" literally means "miss the target." The target is holiness (separateness) and perfection, and we are not holy and perfect in any way shape or form nor at any moment in our entire existence apart from Christ.

 

[Josheb]

If you have no Word you have no faith *ROMANS 10:17

How then was Abraham saved? The gospel was preached to him and he was justified by faith and made righteous but he had no written word.


You do understand Romans 10:17 was written by a redeemed and regenerate person to already redeemed and regenerate people about people already living in a covenant relationship with God and not atheists who don't own Bibles? Yes?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

that is an incomplete view of sin. The Bible lists three specifics and one overarching condition for sin.

Sin is lawlessness (1 Jn. 3:4).
Sin is any unrighteousness (1 Jn. 5:17).
Sin is anything not done in faith (Rom. 14:23).
Sin is imperfection (Mt. 5:48).​

So, no, you don't have to break God's law before a sin is committed. The word "sin" literally means "miss the target." The target is holiness (separateness) and perfection, and we are not holy and perfect in any way shape or form nor at any moment in our entire existence apart from Christ.

Actually dear friend all lawlessness is sin (Compare 1 JOHN 3:4 with other parrallel translations). Lawlessness means without law (disobedience to God's law). The bible definition of sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 Commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23. So yes dear friend if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we commit sin. This is shown by PAUL also in ROMANS 7:7.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

How then was Abraham saved? The gospel was preached to him and he was justified by faith and made righteous but he had no written word. You do understand Romans 10:17 was written by a redeemed and regenerate person to already redeemed and regenerate people about people already living in a covenant relationship with God and not atheists who don't own Bibles? Yes?

Before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God *GENESIS 3:1-3; 9; 11-19 8:15; 9:8; 24:7; 31:11 etc). God's people were saved in exactly the same way that we are today although the process is different of course (no more sin offerings that pointed to JESUS) and that is by faith *see HEBREWS 11 as it is written ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MAY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS. *GENESIS 26:5

Hope this helps.

 

[HARK!]

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of The God, is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of The God .

 

[Josheb]

No it wasn't dear friend your post was claiming I was taking scripture out of context and making claims I never said (strawman). This was proven false by showing context showing that through the law is the knowledge of what sin is. Of course God's law is in force today if there was no law there would be no knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTREOUSNESS as shown in the new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 8:1-4. etc etc.

Let's follow your interpretation of the scriptures through...

1. If there is no Law we have no knowledge of what sin is.
2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is then we do not know we are sinners in need of a Saviour
3. If we have no need of a Saviour we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and lost.

The scripture is then fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" ROMANS 2:12.

Can you see where your interpretation of the scriptures is leading you dear friend? This is why JESUS said to the Scribes and Pharisees "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick but go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." MATTHEW 9:12-13

How are you going to know your sick if you have no mirror? God's LAW is the mirror that leads us to the great Physician and leads us to the cross so we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25 and faith does not abolish God's law it establishes it *ROMANS 3:31.

Hope this helps.

Great argument but two points are worth making.

First, the third premise in the "syllogism" should read, "3. If we have no knowledge of needing a Savior we have no salvation..."

Second, the same guy who declared he would not know sin were it not for the law also wrote,

Romans 2:12-16
"12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."​

So the written law is not necessary to know you've sinned. God's law is written on the human heart. Creation itself is moral and there are consequences for sin both temporally and eternally. Just a few sentences earlier Paul had written all men "suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Rom. 1:18-20). That part about "since the creation" would be before any written ever word existed.

 

[HARK!]

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[HARK!]

Sin is imperfection (Mt. 5:48).

Some how there were scales on my eyes when I read past this little gem for all these years.

(CLV) Mt 5:48
You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It's like a missing bookend.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

 

[pasifika]

No it wasn't dear friend your post was claiming I was taking scripture out of context and making claims I never said (strawman). This was proven false by showing context showing that through the law is the knowledge of what sin is. Of course God's law is in force today if there was no law there would be no knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTREOUSNESS as shown in the new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 8:1-4. etc etc.

Let's follow your interpretation of the scriptures through...

1. If there is no Law we have no knowledge of what sin is.
2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is then we do not know we are sinners in need of a Saviour
3. If we have no need of a Saviour we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and lost.

The scripture is then fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" ROMANS 2:12.

Can you see where your interpretation of the scriptures is leading you dear friend? This is why JESUS said to the Scribes and Pharisees "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick but go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." MATTHEW 9:12-13

How are you going to know your sick if you have no mirror? God's LAW is the mirror that leads us to the great Physician and leads us to the cross so we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25 and faith does not abolish God's law it establishes it *ROMANS 3:31.

Hope this helps.

Hello LGW, why do we need to know sin if like sin is our master? Christ is what we need to know and everything that is Not of that knowledge is sin...
The law only show us our sins...well we do not need to know sin because we already infected by it But we need to know our Savior so we can know how to get saved...

 

[Josheb]

We don't need the Law anymore - we have the Spirit.

False dichotomy.

The fact of the NT is the OT laws and precepts are frequently and repeatedly applied to the NT ekklesia, both the Jewish convert and the Gentile. When Paul and James argue for the abrogation of the law he specifies two conditions: justification and righteousness. This is true of Paul's exposition in by Romans and Galatians as well as James. Both authors appealed to the OT as well. In other words, the writers who stated the law was annulled as a means of righteousness and justification (which are now commuted to us in Christ) also repeatedly asserted the law as a measure of Christian conduct. ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The logically necessary conclusion of what you're arguing is that we don't need that which is inspired by God and profitable to make us adequate and equipped. Surely you don't believe that. (???)