The Latin Mass…...

bigsurfer63

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WOW! You said a true mouthful, Colin. In this very thread (Post #3) we find such comments as these:

And then we find him whining here when others defend against the proselytizing.

Why do they exert such pressure in so many threads? I believe the decreasing numbers of available liturgies nationwide and the potential inability to attend the mass of their choice makes them very mission-minded to stir up others, hoping to create that "stable group" without which no TLM will be offered anywhere. Some statistics show that there is only one mass offered monthly, for instance. To compensate for their frustration, it probably helps them to vent and put down our ordinary form of liturgy. Go figure??
hey Barnabus….we are VERY grateful that we have the FULL SUPPORT of our Bishop here 4 the Latin Mass which we have every Sunday @ 1 & it is always full !!!!
plus , when folks hear we have a Latin Mass , there r people who drive 2 hrs or more ( even wen they have a N O Mass in their town ) every Sunday 2 attend the Sacrifice of The Mass….
 
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Jared R

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hey Barnabus….we are VERY grateful that we have the FULL SUPPORT of our Bishop here 4 the Latin Mass which we have every Sunday @ 1 & it is always full !!!!
plus , when folks hear we have a Latin Mass , there r people who drive 2 hrs or more ( even wen they have a N O Mass in their town ) every Sunday 2 attend the Sacrifice of The Mass….

Bigsurfer, do you mind saying which diocese you are in?

In November our parish celebrated the 25th anniversary of the TLM being offered in our diocese. We had a beautiful guest schola and a nice big potluck, it was a fun day.
 
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bigsurfer63

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Bigsurfer, do you mind saying which diocese you are in?

In November our parish celebrated the 25th anniversary of the TLM being offered in our diocese. We had a beautiful guest schola and a nice big potluck, it was a fun day.
sure….Diocease of Savannah , if u click on the link I shared on where 2 find Latin Masses across the country you'll find 1 for our Cathederal...
 
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St_Barnabus

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hey Barnabus….we are VERY grateful that we have the FULL SUPPORT of our Bishop here 4 the Latin Mass which we have every Sunday @ 1 & it is always full !!!!
plus , when folks hear we have a Latin Mass , there r people who drive 2 hrs or more ( even wen they have a N O Mass in their town ) every Sunday 2 attend the Sacrifice of The Mass….
You have been asked to modify your spelling, more than once. I believe the spell-checker does a fine job.
 
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Azureknight 773

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I went to a sung Latin Mass Christmas time and didn't like it one bit. The priest, obviously has his back to you, whispers the mass to himself, you cannot see what is going on. I know this is normal but for me it was so alien. I thank the Lord for the mass we have these days where people can see and participate more in the actual mass.
Well, that was also a bit similar to mine because I do not know what is going on in the altar if you compare that to the Novus Ordo but nevertheless, it is rewarding if you concentrate and meditate in the Holy Mass. Thankfully my American priest friend introduced me to a couple of videos and thus prepared me a lot. It is also worth noting that I learned some Latin responses such as "Et cum spiritu tuo", "habemus ad Dominum", and the part where you say "sed libera nos a malo. Amen." which helped me a lot during my first time. However, I did not know some of the other responses such as the "Suscipiat Dominus sacrificium..." part and the "Domine non sum dignus..." part though.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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hey Barnabus….we are VERY grateful that we have the FULL SUPPORT of our Bishop here 4 the Latin Mass which we have every Sunday @ 1 & it is always full !!!!
plus , when folks hear we have a Latin Mass , there r people who drive 2 hrs or more ( even wen they have a N O Mass in their town ) every Sunday 2 attend the Sacrifice of The Mass….


And herein lies the problem.

People are traveling 2 hours, outside of their parish to another parish to attend Mass on Sundays.

My old parish had a TLM as well, and the parishioners of that parish protested for it was attended mostly by people not of their parish and many of them were traveling from as far as sixty miles away. The attendance caused a disruption to the other scheduled Masses as the parishioners had no place to park. Also the noise down stairs in the hall of the church, interfered with the Mass that was being celebrated. As a result, they too had to move the TLM to 1 PM as it just caused too much disruption for the parish.

Its the division Pope Benedict XVI caused by trying to compromise with SSPX members by allowing full use of the TLM, This was his main objective according to Cardinal Sean O'Malley who was part of the Pope's commission which dialoged with SSPX leaders. It backfired as SSPX couldn't get all of their demands. Its why St Pope John Paul II refused to allow its full use for he did not want a divided Church and as we've seen time and time again in these forums, its what has happened.

For those who reject the Mass in the vernacular, keep in mind that not everyone has the intellectual skills to understand Latin. Heck, I'd say the majority of attendees at a TLM don't either and most have to continually cross-reference the Latin with the English in their missals and are just mimicking the Latin words. This is not conducive for true prayer.

Lastly, I too was raised on the TLM and saw the abuses back then. They only difference was, most Catholics couldn't see it, because for the most part, the priest and altar boys recited the prayers of the Mass while they were mere observers.

If the priest left out parts of the Eucharistic Prayer, few would notice and most were grateful for the shorter Mass.

Jim
 
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thecolorsblend

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And herein lies the problem.

People are traveling 2 hours, outside of their parish to another parish to attend Mass on Sundays.

My old parish had a TLM as well, and the parishioners of that parish protested for it was attended mostly by people not of their parish and many of them were traveling from as far as sixty miles away. The attendance caused a disruption to the other scheduled Masses as the parishioners had no place to park. Also the noise down stairs in the hall of the church, interfered with the Mass that was being celebrated. As a result, they too had to move the TLM to 1 PM as it just caused too much disruption for the parish.
So the parish had to make certain accommodations in order to get everything to work... but they eventually did get it to work.

What's the problem exactly?

Its the division Pope Benedict XVI caused by trying to compromise with SSPX members by allowing full use of the TLM, This was his main objective according to Cardinal Sean O'Malley who was part of the Pope's commission which dialoged with SSPX leaders. It backfired as SSPX couldn't get all of their demands. Its why St Pope John Paul II refused to allow its full use for he did not want a divided Church and as we've seen time and time again in these forums, its what has happened.
Division already existed as many people preferred the TLM and weren't happy about having it taken away. St. Paul vowed to become a vegetarian in all but name if seeing him eat meat would ruin another Christian's faith. Are TLM enthusiasts less worthy of consideration because they prefer the TLM? Should the Church give up efforts toward reconciliation with SSPX simply because they prefer the TLM?

I'm not defending SSPX. Their problems go far deeper than liturgy as you probably know. But if resuming the TLM in parishes which want it is all it takes to simplify discussions with SSPX, isn't that a small price to pay for visible, corporate unity?

For those who reject the Mass in the vernacular, keep in mind that not everyone has the intellectual skills to understand Latin. Heck, I'd say the majority of attendees at a TLM don't either and most have to continually cross-reference the Latin with the English in their missals and are just mimicking the Latin words. This is not conducive for true prayer.
That's unknown and unknowable. Even if it's a matter of simple preference rather than substantial difference, shouldn't we accommodate our brothers and sisters who simply want to offer their God the very best prayers and worship that they know how to offer?

To turn this thread in a hopefully more positive direction, here's what I enjoy about the TLM with the proviso that your actual mileage may vary.

-- Traditional Latin Mass Positive Points
* Humility. I don't speak Latin, which is actually helpful. The entire Mass is already a mystery. Even if it's conducted in vernacular language, we still don't TRULY comprehend what's happening in the Mass. The Latin drives that home and the end result is a greater sense of humility. You get a fuller picture, first, of how unworthy you are and, second, just how much grace has been extended.

* Reverence. The above leads to a deeper reverence and sober-mindedness than you would have otherwise. It could just be how niche the TLM is but I don't see very much going-through-the-motions from parishioners at a TLM.

* Unity. There's a deeper sense of connection somehow in knowing that the TLM you're experiencing is more or less the same TLM that's being given in other parts of the world. And there's a universality to it to where vernacular matters less so if you're in a foreign country where they don't speak your language, you can still attend a TLM and you might miss out on the homily and whatnot but basically you're getting the same Mass as you would in your home parish.

-- Novus Ordo Positive Points
* Accessibility. They speak your language. 'Nuff said.

* Liturgy of the Word. Sort of related to the above but not really, I think it's important to be able to truly understand the readings. Yes, if you know ahead of time what the readings will be, you can bookmark them and then follow along as they're being read in Latin. But in daily TLM, the readings aren't repeated in vernacular so pretty much you're out of luck if you're not sure what the readings are or didn't bookmark them. That's a virtual non-issue with NO. I would see this universally applied to the TLM given my druthers.

* Precious Blood. I'm sure there's a reason why it isn't received in the TLM but I rather like receiving it anyway. My liturgical worship was formed by Anglicans, and there you receive the body and the blood. Not to second guess anybody but I'd prefer to receive the precious blood at the TLM as well.

* Responses. TLM has responses but there's a deeper sense of connection to do the responses in vernacular. Plus there tends to be a wider variety of responses (beyond "and with your spirit", I mean) in NO by virtue of the fact that it's vernacular and the parishioners are able to speak more of their own language (probably) than they can in Latin.

Are we all friendly again now?
 
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Jared R

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* Precious Blood. I'm sure there's a reason why it isn't received in the TLM but I rather like receiving it anyway.

There were two reasons as it was explained to me. The first is to prevent spilling the Precious Blood, and the second was to combat a popular but mistaken notion among the laity that the host is only the body of Christ and the chalice only His blood.
 
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bigsurfer63

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So the parish had to make certain accommodations in order to get everything to work... but they eventually did get it to work.

What's the problem exactly?

Division already existed as many people preferred the TLM and weren't happy about having it taken away. St. Paul vowed to become a vegetarian in all but name if seeing him eat meat would ruin another Christian's faith. Are TLM enthusiasts less worthy of consideration because they prefer the TLM? Should the Church give up efforts toward reconciliation with SSPX simply because they prefer the TLM?

I'm not defending SSPX. Their problems go far deeper than liturgy as you probably know. But if resuming the TLM in parishes which want it is all it takes to simplify discussions with SSPX, isn't that a small price to pay for visible, corporate unity?

That's unknown and unknowable. Even if it's a matter of simple preference rather than substantial difference, shouldn't we accommodate our brothers and sisters who simply want to offer their God the very best prayers and worship that they know how to offer?

To turn this thread in a hopefully more positive direction, here's what I enjoy about the TLM with the proviso that your actual mileage may vary.

-- Traditional Latin Mass Positive Points
* Humility. I don't speak Latin, which is actually helpful. The entire Mass is already a mystery. Even if it's conducted in vernacular language, we still don't TRULY comprehend what's happening in the Mass. The Latin drives that home and the end result is a greater sense of humility. You get a fuller picture, first, of how unworthy you are and, second, just how much grace has been extended.

* Reverence. The above leads to a deeper reverence and sober-mindedness than you would have otherwise. It could just be how niche the TLM is but I don't see very much going-through-the-motions from parishioners at a TLM.

* Unity. There's a deeper sense of connection somehow in knowing that the TLM you're experiencing is more or less the same TLM that's being given in other parts of the world. And there's a universality to it to where vernacular matters less so if you're in a foreign country where they don't speak your language, you can still attend a TLM and you might miss out on the homily and whatnot but basically you're getting the same Mass as you would in your home parish.

-- Novus Ordo Positive Points
* Accessibility. They speak your language. 'Nuff said.

* Liturgy of the Word. Sort of related to the above but not really, I think it's important to be able to truly understand the readings. Yes, if you know ahead of time what the readings will be, you can bookmark them and then follow along as they're being read in Latin. But in daily TLM, the readings aren't repeated in vernacular so pretty much you're out of luck if you're not sure what the readings are or didn't bookmark them. That's a virtual non-issue with NO. I would see this universally applied to the TLM given my druthers.

* Precious Blood. I'm sure there's a reason why it isn't received in the TLM but I rather like receiving it anyway. My liturgical worship was formed by Anglicans, and there you receive the body and the blood. Not to second guess anybody but I'd prefer to receive the precious blood at the TLM as well.

* Responses. TLM has responses but there's a deeper sense of connection to do the responses in vernacular. Plus there tends to be a wider variety of responses (beyond "and with your spirit", I mean) in NO by virtue of the fact that it's vernacular and the parishioners are able to speak more of their own language (probably) than they can in Latin.

Are we all friendly again now?
well said…….me personally , i just prefer the Latin Mass 4 its sacred reverence etc…& its intensity etc….over the N O Mass ( nothing wrong with the N O Mass , as said before the extraordinary form is just my preference ) & by the way , I'm not an SSPX Catholic & never claimed 2 be……lol
 
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bigsurfer63

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And herein lies the problem.

People are traveling 2 hours, outside of their parish to another parish to attend Mass on Sundays.

My old parish had a TLM as well, and the parishioners of that parish protested for it was attended mostly by people not of their parish and many of them were traveling from as far as sixty miles away. The attendance caused a disruption to the other scheduled Masses as the parishioners had no place to park. Also the noise down stairs in the hall of the church, interfered with the Mass that was being celebrated. As a result, they too had to move the TLM to 1 PM as it just caused too much disruption for the parish.

Its the division Pope Benedict XVI caused by trying to compromise with SSPX members by allowing full use of the TLM, This was his main objective according to Cardinal Sean O'Malley who was part of the Pope's commission which dialoged with SSPX leaders. It backfired as SSPX couldn't get all of their demands. Its why St Pope John Paul II refused to allow its full use for he did not want a divided Church and as we've seen time and time again in these forums, its what has happened.

For those who reject the Mass in the vernacular, keep in mind that not everyone has the intellectual skills to understand Latin. Heck, I'd say the majority of attendees at a TLM don't either and most have to continually cross-reference the Latin with the English in their missals and are just mimicking the Latin words. This is not conducive for true prayer.

Lastly, I too was raised on the TLM and saw the abuses back then. They only difference was, most Catholics couldn't see it, because for the most part, the priest and altar boys recited the prayers of the Mass while they were mere observers.

If the priest left out parts of the Eucharistic Prayer, few would notice and most were grateful for the shorter Mass.

Jim
with some people traveling 45 minutes , 1 hour , 2 hours & sometimes more 2 attend our Latin Mass every Sunday , they tell me , sure , they have a N O Mass where they live , but , they just prefer 2 attend a Latin Mass exclusively….
that dosent mean they're an SSPX Catholic , its just they're hungry 4 the Extraordinay Form of The Mass / Sacrifice of The Mass & theres nothing wrong with that…….if you prefer Wendy's hamburgers over Burger King & u have 2 drive an hour for a Wendys burger , you'll do it……just a thought
 
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Glad to see you are more sensible than I thought. No offense intended. Just saying.
with some people traveling 45 minutes , 1 hour , 2 hours & sometimes more 2 attend our Latin Mass every Sunday , they tell me , sure , they have a N O Mass where they live , but , they just prefer 2 attend a Latin Mass exclusively….
that dosent mean they're an SSPX Catholic , its just they're hungry 4 the Extraordinay Form of The Mass / Sacrifice of The Mass & theres nothing wrong with that…….if you prefer Wendy's hamburgers over Burger King & u have 2 drive an hour for a Wendys burger , you'll do it……just a thought
 
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bigsurfer63

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with some people traveling 45 minutes , 1 hour , 2 hours & sometimes more 2 attend our Latin Mass every Sunday , they tell me , sure , they have a N O Mass where they live , but , they just prefer 2 attend a Latin Mass exclusively….
that dosent mean they're an SSPX Catholic , its just they're hungry 4 the Extraordinay Form of The Mass / Sacrifice of The Mass & theres nothing wrong with that…….if you prefer Wendy's hamburgers over Burger King & u have 2 drive an hour for a Wendys burger , you'll do it……just a thought


For those who reject the Mass in the vernacular, keep in mind that not everyone has the intellectual skills to understand Latin. Heck, I'd say the majority of attendees at a TLM don't either and most have to continually cross-reference the Latin with the English in their missals and are just mimicking the Latin words. This is not conducive for true prayer.

dont kno about that……it seems most of the folks @ our Latin Mass do pretty good with their " intellectual skills " by participating with the prayers & responses etc ( I can hear them etc )….& NOT mimicking & I'm pretty sure their hearts & themselves r in true prayer………don't base your latin experience in assuming we're a bunch of coconuts celebrating the Sacrifice of The Mass…..
 
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bigsurfer63

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And herein lies the problem.

People are traveling 2 hours, outside of their parish to another parish to attend Mass on Sundays.

My old parish had a TLM as well, and the parishioners of that parish protested for it was attended mostly by people not of their parish and many of them were traveling from as far as sixty miles away. The attendance caused a disruption to the other scheduled Masses as the parishioners had no place to park. Also the noise down stairs in the hall of the church, interfered with the Mass that was being celebrated. As a result, they too had to move the TLM to 1 PM as it just caused too much disruption for the parish.

Its the division Pope Benedict XVI caused by trying to compromise with SSPX members by allowing full use of the TLM, This was his main objective according to Cardinal Sean O'Malley who was part of the Pope's commission which dialoged with SSPX leaders. It backfired as SSPX couldn't get all of their demands. Its why St Pope John Paul II refused to allow its full use for he did not want a divided Church and as we've seen time and time again in these forums, its what has happened.

For those who reject the Mass in the vernacular, keep in mind that not everyone has the intellectual skills to understand Latin. Heck, I'd say the majority of attendees at a TLM don't either and most have to continually cross-reference the Latin with the English in their missals and are just mimicking the Latin words. This is not conducive for true prayer.

Lastly, I too was raised on the TLM and saw the abuses back then. They only difference was, most Catholics couldn't see it, because for the most part, the priest and altar boys recited the prayers of the Mass while they were mere observers.

If the priest left out parts of the Eucharistic Prayer, few would notice and most were grateful for the shorter Mass.

Jim
dont kno about that……it seems most of the folks @ our Latin Mass do pretty good with their " intellectual skills " by participating with the prayers & responses etc ( I can hear them etc )….& NOT mimicking & I'm pretty sure their hearts & themselves r in true prayer………don't base your latin experience in assuming we're a bunch of coconuts celebrating the Sacrifice of The Mass…..
 
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There's also the option of praying the rosary or another devotion during the Mass. I know this isn't popular anymore, but several popes prior to Paul VI (who did not like it) approved the practice.

In his Apostolic Exhortation "Marialis Cultus" Blessed Paul VI taught : " It is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

You said that several popes approved the praying of the rosary during Mass . Which popes gave this approval ?
 
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Jared R

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In his Apostolic Exhortation "Marialis Cultus" Blessed Paul VI taught : " It is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

You said that several popes approved the praying of the rosary during Mass . Which popes gave this approval ?

Pope Leo XIII asked for it to be said during Mass when he made October the month of the rosary, and Pius XII also recommended the practice. Others I haven't seen with my own eyes but have read that they gave approval. I am not going to engage in any more debate in this thread.
 
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Tallguy88

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Why is there so much fighting in this thread? The OP isn't pushing SSPX stuff in this thread, he just loves the TLM and asked who else does. See the underlined parts below. Let's try to keep the thread civil ok?

Was just curious……who here is a Traditionalist Catholic & attends EXCLUSIVELY the Extraordinary Form of The Mass ????

I'm soooooooo grateful that I attend the Cathederal here that has the Extraordinary Form of The Mass & that has the total support of our Bishop.
you'd be very surprised that the Latin Mass here is filled with young Catholics & young Catholic families as well as converts too.

When I speak with the young Catholics here they always say that they are VERY hungry for the Latin Mass & usually exclusively attend the Sacrifice of The Mass & never a N O Mass….

since attending the Extraordinary Form of The Mass now for a lil over 3 yrs now since moving here, I have not attended a N O Mass.

don't take this op as "anti N O Mass " it is NOT….just curious here who goes EXCLUSIVELY 2 the Latin Mass….

As for myself, I've never been to the TLM. There's not one near me. I would like to go and see what it's like.
 
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bigsurfer63

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Why is there so much fighting in this thread? The OP isn't pushing SSPX stuff in this thread, he just loves the TLM and asked who else does. See the underlined parts below. Let's try to keep the thread civil ok?



As for myself, I've never been to the TLM. There's not one near me. I would like to go and see what it's like.
awesome……u should check out a Latin Mass….if u saw , i posted a link 2 all the Latin Masses state by state….& as i stated before there r folks who will drive hrs just 2 attend a Latin Mass when they find 1 nearby……when I lived in Melbourne Fla before there was a Latin Mass available , there would people who would drive to Ft Lauderdale ( 3 hrs away ) from Melb., 2 Ft Lauderdale just 2 attend Latin Mass….
 
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Pope Leo XIII asked for it to be said during Mass when he made October the month of the rosary, and Pius XII also recommended the practice. Others I haven't seen with my own eyes but have read that they gave approval. I am not going to engage in any more debate in this thread.
Where is the teaching of Pope Leo XIII and Pope Pius XII that the rosary be said during the celebration of the Eucharist , a practice which Blessed Paul VI taught to be a mistake in his Apostolic Exhortation "Marialis Cultus" ?
 
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