The Latin Mass…...

[thecolorsblend]

Oh I know. I don't think incidents like that make the TLM superior to the NO, I just think maybe the atmosphere of the NO can be more conducive to them.

Now that IS a point. The TLM rubrics are specific down to the exact gestures and genuflections the priest should be making. The NO texts are less specific... but what little I've read of them suggests that they assume the priest is facing ad orientem, for example. Many priests don't do that I guess because there isn't a line in there saying "Face ad orientem". So they interpret flexibility and creativity that may not actually be permitted.

So maybe the answer is to clarify the NO texts so that the priest's movements and other things are more scripted so that he can't diverge.

Incidentally, I never thought I could marshal this good a defense of the NO since I much prefer the Latin Mass. But life takes us in strange directions sometimes, I guess.

 

[St_Barnabus]

Now that IS a point. The TLM rubrics are specific down to the exact gestures and genuflections the priest should be making. The NO texts are less specific... but what little I've read of them suggests that they assume the priest is facing ad orientem, for example. Many priests don't do that I guess because there isn't a line in there saying "Face ad orientem". So they interpret flexibility and creativity that may not actually be permitted.

Just a FYI ... facing the people was originally mandated in the GIRM, but was later clarified by the CDW that now permits either posture of the priest during mass. The problem is, many churches altered the sanctuary and repositioned the altar for "versus populum" in accord with the original understanding. The people are so used to it now, that it would be difficult to suddenly do an about face and change the posture to ad orientem. I think our priests prefer this, as well.
We can be grateful that either posture is lawful, so I hope this does not become another point of contention.

 

[Martinius]

But my point is that the OP made it clear that this was not an anti-NO thread. The topic isn't about TLM vs. NO. People coming in to criticize the TLM is off-topic and just mean-spirited and makes it a TLM vs. NO thread.

I guess I didn't see it that way. Most of those who commented about preferring the NO Mass were not mean spirited nor did they trash the TLM or those who prefer it. I can't really criticize the current TLM since I haven't been to one in half a century. I can only speak for how it was and why I don't seek out the TLM, whether periodically or every week, and several posters have done the same.

Some of the posts reminded me of how we tried to avoid the "High" Mass on Sunday back in the day. Christmas and Easter were the exceptions. Today, we have music at every Sunday Mass.

Also, the comments about the really short daily Masses by one poster also reminded me that the NO Mass is not immune to that either. When I went to St. Patrick's Cathedral once for daily Mass the priest ran through it in about 15 minutes, 20 at most. Masses there were (and I think still are) scheduled a half hour apart in the morning and around the noon hour. My impression of the Mass was that the priest was going through the motions automatically, and there was no feeling of sacredness to the whole thing.

That can happen even at a regular Sunday Mass. I was travelling recently and went to a Mass where the young priest (he appeared to be about 20, but obviously wasn't) had the dullest expressions and most monotonous vocal tone that I have encountered since that Mass at St. Patrick's. Luckily, the Deacon assisting at the Mass was a little livelier, and the cantor was superb.

Again, I have no problem with having either style of Mass, and it is great that we have that option. And what I said here and earlier are not criticisms, but just a recounting of my experiences and impressions.

 

[Michie]

Maybe I should not of said what I said about some TLM'ers having a superior attitude as this was not the place for it I guess. So I apologize if I upset anyone.

 

[St_Barnabus]

I guess I didn't see it that way. Most of those who commented about preferring the NO Mass were not mean spirited nor did they trash the TLM or those who prefer it. I can't really criticize the current TLM since I haven't been to one in half a century. I can only speak for how it was and why I don't seek out the TLM, whether periodically or every week, and several posters have done the same.

Some of the posts reminded me of how we tried to avoid the "High" Mass on Sunday back in the day. Christmas and Easter were the exceptions. Today, we have music at every Sunday Mass.

That's very true, even if others missed our speaking for how it "was." The TLM today may not be celebrated as it was prior to Vatican II, I don't know... I have no desire to check it out. Why? I love the N.O. for many reasons.
a.) Music, 3 readings, and a responsorial psalm (how many of us ever knew the psalms?)
b.) Several varieties of the Canon (Eucharistic prayer) which speaks of Jesus's sacrificial offering in many different settings.
c.) Ability to respond vocally to prayers, especially the Our Father in common.
d.) Receiving the Precious Blood, which was never possible in the old mass.
e.) Prayers of the Faithful offered in unison for the needs of the Body of Christ.
f.) Hearing and praying the mass in our vernacular for full and immediate comprehension, without having to read a missal to follow along.

If I gave it more time to reflect, I could probably name more ... but this is a good start.

 

[St_Barnabus]

Maybe I should not of said what I said about some TLM'ers having a superior attitude as this was not the place for it I guess. So I apologize if I upset anyone.

Me, too, Michie.
I guess I've seen so much of the elitism that I recoil quickly whenever someone attempts to denigrate the N.O. liturgy. Maybe it's not as common here, but other forums are rank with that attitude, and they waste no time posting multiple threads to tout the TLM and actually state that it is "superior."

 

[Michie]

It happens here but probably not nearly as often as it does in other forums. I actually enjoy hearing about the two different forms of Mass but I tend to get irritated when I'm made to feel that I attend a subpar Mass. The Church condones both and offers both.

Me, too, Michie.
I guess I've seen so much of the elitism that I recoil quickly whenever someone attempts to denigrate the N.O. liturgy. Maybe it's not as common here, but other forums are rank with that attitude, and they waste no time posting multiple threads to tout the TLM and actually state that it is "superior."

 

[topcare]

Me, too, Michie.
I guess I've seen so much of the elitism that I recoil quickly whenever someone attempts to denigrate the N.O. liturgy. Maybe it's not as common here, but other forums are rank with that attitude, and they waste no time posting multiple threads to tout the TLM and actually state that it is "superior."

I was thinking that too and the OP does not have a great track record.

 

[topcare]

I remember that I studied and read everything about the Church and saw a Mass, well I was just awestruck. So I timidly went to my first Mass and image my total surprise and shock when it was not what I saw on the VHS tape (yes I aged myself : ) ) so much so that Fr. ask me why I looked surprised during Mass and I told him that it was different than I expected.

To me the NO wasn't bad just different from the TLM, never been to a TLM but I seen that video and a Blssed Bishop Fulton J. Sheen one on youtube

 

[bigsurfer63]

Yes it is... I'm SORRY I didn't get the memo BEFORE

ALSO to answer your question bigsurfer, I don't judge anyone who attends the NO, but I have been attending the TLM exclusively for 2-3 years now. I had to go to a NO Mass in December because there was no other way to fulfill my obligation, and it was very upsetting for me (but again, it is a valid Mass and I don't judge anyone here who attends one exclusively).

I would agree that the Latin Mass is extremely popular among young Catholics. At my parish there are SO many people in their 20's there by themselves, and 14 enthusiastic altar boys. People expect the Latin Mass to be full of the elderly, but in my experience they are the minority by far. It's lots of young people and big young families. I believe this is where we will find the future of the Church in the US.

awesome !!!!! sounds the same as our Mass !!!!

 

[bigsurfer63]

I would if I could, I watch YouTube videos of Latin Masses all the time because I think it's one of the most beautiful things God ever gave the Church. Unfortunately my parish stopped offering the TLM back in November 2013 before I even started attending, and the nearest one is about an 80 mile drive south for me.

If I ever relocate back east like I plan, I'm definitely going to find a parish with a Latin Mass, like Church of the Holy Innocents in New York or St. Mary Mother of God in Washington DC.

u should still drive the 80 miles to attend….I kno people who drive 2 to 3 hrs every sunday to attend our Latin Mass….

 

[bigsurfer63]

I was brought up with the Tridentine Mass years before the liturgy was reformed by the 21st Ecumenical Council .
Pope Benedickt said the Latin Mass everyday & because of Him theres more Latin Masses now available & priests no longer need the permission of their bishops to perform the Latin Mass….
As an altar server I served hundreds , no thousands of Tridentine Masses .

I don't look at those Masses through rose-tinted glasses . Too many of them verged on the sacrilegious . Little wonder they needed reforming .

I have just got back from morning Mass ........ordinary form......in English.......celebrated with reverence ......true devotion......respect from all present .

Give me the ordinary English Mass any day . I hold it in high esteem .

Those who want the Tridentine Mass can have it , but don't expect me to follow you down that road .

Just an observation.......since the introduction of the Ordinary Mass , how many times have you seen a Pope celebrate the Extraordinary Mass ?

 

[bigsurfer63]

I've always wondered if attendees speak Latin. Seems rather odd if they don't because while it may be beautiful, I don't really see the point if I don't understand it.

after 3 yrs attending the Latin Mass I have no problem following & or reciting the Latin without my St Joseph Daily Missal….

 

[Jared R]

after 3 yrs attending the Latin Mass I have no problem following & or reciting the Latin without my St Joseph Daily Missal….

Good point. I missed Patrick's question. I was very lost and disoriented the first time I went to the TLM, but it's not hard to pick up over time, and now I can go without my missal (though I prefer to use it). Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum, sic tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea. I didn't try to memorize the prayers, but I naturally memorized many of them over time. The brain is an awesome tool, and Holy Mass is a worthy object for it to be exercised on.

 

[Gnarwhal]

u should still drive the 80 miles to attend….I kno people who drive 2 to 3 hrs every sunday to attend our Latin Mass….

Well, I don't have my own car (I'm borrowing my dad's right now) and I'm an unemployed student, so it's not really in the cards financially. But when I have the means then I'll probably do it once a month.

 

[Colin]

It happens here but probably not nearly as often as it does in other forums. I actually enjoy hearing about the two different forms of Mass but I tend to get irritated when I'm made to feel that I attend a subpar Mass. The Church condones both and offers both.

I think you sum up the thoughts of many , Michie , when you speak of your irritation at being made to feel that you attend a subpar Mass .

How many threads have been opened by those who love the Ordinary form of Mass ? None that I know of , but I would like to be corrected if I am mistaken .

It is always , as far as I am aware , those who love the Extraordinary form of Mass who open threads such as this one . And the way they put across their thoughts , explicitly or implicitly , they are inferring , whether they intend to or not , that the Mass they attend is superior to that which most Catholics attend .

I don't know why those who choose to attend a Tridentine Mass feel the need to keep going on about it . And I don't know why some of those who have made this choice start to whinge when others post comments , justifiable comments as far as I am concerned , which challenge some of the stuff they say on the threads they have opened .

So , accepting that we are able to attend the Mass in various forms , why not just leave it at that and get on with life ? To do otherwise simply leads to division , confusion and bad feeling , and out goes the window our hopes for ONE BREAD ONE BODY .

 

[St_Barnabus]

It is always , as far as I am aware , those who love the Extraordinary form of Mass who open threads such as this one . And the way they put across their thoughts , explicitly or implicitly , they are inferring , whether they intend to or not , that the Mass they attend is superior to that which most Catholics attend .

WOW! You said a true mouthful, Colin. In this very thread (Post #3) we find such comments as these:

I believe this is where we will find the future of the Church in the US.
I had to go [poor me!] to a NO Mass in December because there was no other way to fulfill my obligation, and it was very upsetting for me (but again, it is a valid Mass and I don't judge anyone here who attends one exclusively).

And then we find him whining here when others defend against the proselytizing.

Why do they exert such pressure in so many threads? I believe the decreasing numbers of available liturgies nationwide and the potential inability to attend the mass of their choice makes them very mission-minded to stir up others, hoping to create that "stable group" without which no TLM will be offered anywhere. Some statistics show that there is only one mass offered monthly, for instance. To compensate for their frustration, it probably helps them to vent and put down our ordinary form of liturgy. Go figure??

 

[Fantine]

What I like about the TLM crowd is that they do "community" better than most Catholics do. They are drawn together by their special interest, and they feel out of place in their local Catholic parishes, but that connects them very closely to one another.

I know a family who attends a Latin Mass parish whose son had a serious accident that required the mother to live in a city hundreds of miles away while he was hospitalized, and for the father to look after the other children. They did a little farming on several acres, too. Even though the Latin Mass community was at least an hour away from the home, the people rallied around, even taking care of their land (and, of course, other people who knew them did a lot, too).

I know that there are Catholics in many local parishes who long for that kind of community and can't seem to connect. For the first two or three years we lived in our current state, that was my family. But I would have felt completely out of place in a Latin Mass community--I don't think that there's any way a person can pretend to be traditional if he is completely progressive in order to have "friends," because friendship requires common interests and priorities.

 

[Jared R]

And then we find him whining here when others defend against the proselytizing.

St Barnabus, I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but you are just so patronizing and nasty about it. I would rather talk to people like Fantine, with whom I agree on so much less. She is at least always respectful. If I do not respond to you in the future, please consider it to be for charity's sake.

 

[Anhelyna]

oh please people - this is still Christmas tide - the season of goodwill etc !

It's also a Holy Year

Could we all be a little more charitable to each other ? There are rights and wrongs on both sides of this particular topic.