The Last Hundred Years, or so...

[Renee Arisen]

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[MWood]

There are two gospels in the New Testament. The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and His disciples preached, and the Gospel of the Grace of God that Paul preached.

The Gospel of the Kingdom was about bringing the Nation of Israel back to the Laws and Commandments that was given to them by Moses from God, and away from their traditions of man, back to their temple worship as is laid out in the law.

The Gospel of Grace is a whole different Gospel. It is about all the things that Jesus accomplished when He died on the Cross. These things could not be taught before Jesus died. The twelve were given the "great commission" to teach to the Nation of Israel. And they did teach this until they died, even though the Holy Spirit revealed to them this Gospel of Grace.

As much as the both of you have studied, I don't see how you have missed these two Gospels. It is as if you stopped studying when you finished the Gospel of John. Start again with the Book of Acts. In it you will see the transition from the Twelve to the Apostle Paul. You will see the transition from the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gospel of the Grace of God. Study it carefully, and relate it to the letters of Paul. This Book of Acts covers about a thirty year period, give or take.

 

[98cwitr]

Ah I see now. I think I see it as all one Gospel though. I can understand a transition you see, I see it too, but it's all one Gospel to me. This is Gospel too...

Isaiah 42:6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Christ fulfilled this, and the disciples spread the news, but as we can see different focal points in the 4 gospel books, and from Paul, and from James, the message of the Gospel (single and proper) is the same. See that some disciples were to remain and preach in Israel to bring in the Jews, others were sent to the Gentiles. They would have heard the same message in a different way (which they could understand), but the same message nevertheless. We got both sides of the coin in the Bible though.

Paul does a nice job of summarizing what the Gospel actually is in 1 Cor. 15. We find this same Gospel near the ends of each of the 4 gospel books: Matt, Mark, Luke, and John

I think we have drifted off topic though...

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Avid]

... Study it carefully, and relate it to the letters of Paul...

Take note that, though Paul did teach differently, he was not satisfied for the other Apostles to teach one way and he another. The controversy between Paul and the other apostles was to bring them in line with right thinking on the issue of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2
11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
​

So far from being sent in a different direction, the Apostle Peter thought more closely with the Apostle Paul after he was rebuked by him. He even said that Paul had some things that were hard to understand, and that the unlearned and unstable wrestle with the truth, as it seems you do here.

II Peter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
​

Do not propose heresy in this Baptist SubForum. The people here do not need to sort through all the error that has been displayed in your posts. It is tough enough if they are willing to see the truth from God's scriptures, and compare that to what they hear in Church.

These are yet more examples of the things that concerned Wm. Booth 115 years ago. I am not putting all his teaching forth. I frankly have not read all he taught, but these points he made (review the OP) are concerns we should have today, as he did back then.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[JLR1300]

There isn't two gospels but sometimes when Jesus is teaching us about the kingdom He gives us guidance and principles for living the Christian life and people assume that He is telling us how to be justified but really He isn't. For instance, in the Kingdom we are told blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. Is Jesus telling us how to become a Christian? That the way to obtain mercy in the sense of salvation and justification is just by being a merciful person? Does the Bible teach justification by mercy? No. Justification is by faith alone.

However, it is just a fact that saved people are merciful people and saved people shall obtain mercy. So the merciful shall obtain mercy but not because they are merciful. They obtain mercy because they are saved. What is my point? My point is that there isn't two gospels but you have to be careful when you are reading about life in the kingdom to not think that all of the instructions regarding how to live are a part of the Gospel of salvation. Those who live in the Kingdom (Christians) are expected to be merciful... and since they have the Holy Spirit in them they indeed will be merciful most of the time. But the Gospel of salvation is not ... be merciful and you will be justified. No. The Gospel of salvation is simply that Christ died for our sins and rose again and those who trust and believe that His blood covers their sins and saves apart from their works are justified.

So although there are not two Gospels there are two teachings... The Gospel of salvation taught by Paul teaches us how to be justified. The teachings regarding the Kingdom of God by Christ are mostly about how to live the Christian life effectively so that you will help others and glorify God and receive rewards. If you confuse these two things you will end up teaching justificaiton by works. Obviously, sometimes Paul taught things about the kingdom and sometimes Jesus taught how to be justified...like in the book of John for instance. But most of the time in the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke) Jesus is teaching how to be an effective follower in His kingdom not how to be justified.

One final word... the word gospel just means good news. So the fact that some well meaning Christians believe that there is good news about the Kingdom and that there is good news about salvation (two gospels in that sense) may be incorrect in some ways and not in others but that does not make them evil heretics. As long as they do not believe that there is one way to get justified for Gentles and another way to get justified for Jews it is not that serious. If you have all knowledge but have not love you are nothing.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Avid]

... may be incorrect in some ways and not in others but that does not make them evil heretics. As long as they do not believe that there is one way to get justified for Gentles and another way to get justified for Jews it is not that serious. If you have all knowledge but have not love you are nothing.

I think it clearly would be an easy thing to overlook if MWood could bring himself to admit he was incorrect. If he could say that the term was used as "Good News about more than one thing," it would likely be no difficulty coming to a resolution.

The main problem is how easily we go astray dividing up God's truth in such a way, and building doctrine from it. How about that? MWood says he was only referencing more than one thing that was Good News in the New Testament, and we no longer think he meant what he said in his earlier posts? I think we could live with that, or find a way to excuse some of the rough rhetoric we got from him on the subject...

 

[MWood]

IT SHALL GREATLY HELP YE TO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURE IF THOU MARK NOT ONLY WHAT IS SPOKEN OR WRITTEN, BUT TO WHOM AND OF WHOM, WITH WHAT WORDS, AT WHAT TIME, WHERE, TO WHAT INTENT, WITH WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES, CONSIDERING WHAT GOETH BEFORE AND WHAT FOLLOWTH AFTER.
MILES COVERDALE

What I said was not an attack on your character. I did recognize your many hours of study and your knowledge. But it does appear that you stopped your study with the Gospel of John. The only time you consider what Paul wrote, is in defense of your position.

Since you are not willing to consider the things that I have said, and search the scriptures to see if they are true, then there is no point in continuing this discussion. You, as a Christian, should be more like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily to see if these things are true. But that don't seem likely.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[supersoldier71]

Where's the "eating popcorn" thingy...?

God does NOT love everyone. He tells us that, for example, He hated Esau (Mal 1:3), which Paul reiterates in his letter to the Romans when discussing God's sovereignty in (wait for it) election.

God loves whom He chooses to love and has mercy on those on whom He chooses to have mercy. The inverse is also true.

So that no man may boast.

God bless!

 

[98cwitr]

This thread's topic is regarding the transformations of the contemporary Baptist Church over the years. While the SBC is still strong, we have organizations like CBF (formed in 1991) and ABC (founded 1907) that have cropped up to cater to the liberal side of this denomination. What produced these groups and why?

Let's take a look at the CBF...an excerpt from wikipedia's page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_Baptist_Fellowship

The core values maintained by the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship begin with four items the CBF considers Baptist principles of faith and practice.

Soul freedom is the ability of all people to relate directly with God. The belief in the priesthood of all believers is an important basis for this principle.

Bible freedom is the principle of recognizing the authority of Scripture and the right of every Christian to interpret it as the Holy Spirit directs.

Church freedom is the idea that every local church is autonomous and empowered to choose its own leaders and direct its own affairs.

Religious freedom is the principle of separation of church and state. CBF supports this principle through affiliation with the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty.

What do they mean by "relate" I wonder?

If yall wanna go back to the Protestant reformation we can, but that's outside the scope of this thread topic

 

[JLR1300]

When you look at the Old Testament, it appears at first glance, to be teaching salvation by obedience to the law of Moses. God promised to bless the Nation of Israel if it obeyed the law and promised to chasten it if it disobeyed. So in a way, it was teaching salvation by the law... that is... PHYSICAL AND EARTHLY and NATIONAL salvation.

If you look at the Mosaic Law closely it is really just promising that if an individual Jew obeys it he will be blessed with long life and peace etc. If the nation of Israel obeyed it would be safe from intruders and famine and disease etc. In fact, the blood of bulls and sheep couldn't really forgive intentional sin. Only unintentional sin could be covered and even then there was simply forbearance rather than true justification. Only a few people (the elect) understood that justification could not be obtained by following the laws of Moses or by the blood of animals. Abraham was justified by believing and not by works hundreds of years before the Law was Given by Moses. David also was justified by faith alone. (Romans 4) By the time of Jesus almost the entire nation of Israel believed that salvation was by obedience to the law. That is what the Pharisees were all about. Almost the whole nation was unsaved because they believed in works salvation. The Pharisees preached morality, morality, morality. Jesus told them that Prostitutes would get into heaven before them.

When Jesus came along He didn't start out by explaining the Gospel in a lot of detail. Instead, He spent a lot of time going over the laws to show the people that the law was so strict that you cannot be saved by an attempt to keep it. He showed that don't steal really means don't even covet. Don't kill really means don't even be angry. Don't commit adultery really means don't even lust. The law demands perfection. Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus was showing that the law is so strict it cannot be kept. Jesus wanted the Jews to despair of being saved by their good works and morality so that after He died on the cross and the Apostles preached that forgiveness comes by faith in His blood rather than works the people would be ready to believe.

Now today the world is no different than Israel was in the days of Christ. Just as almost all of Israel misunderstood Moses and thought that Salvation was by morality and works rather than by faith alone (like Abraham and David knew it was) in the same way almost the entire modern day Israel (Christendom) misunderstands Christ when He preached the sermon on the Mount. They think that Jesus is telling us how to be justified when He says things like "blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy" or "be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect"

But Jesus isn't doing that. He is showing us that if we wish to be saved by the law we must be perfect. So almost the entire Church is making the same mistake as Israel of old. They have misunderstood the Christ just as Old Israel misunderstood Moses. They are trusting in their ablity to be good enough to be saved even though they have added Jesus to that formula. Of course the elect realize that no one is good and thus justification is by faith alone in Christ alone. They are like Abraham and David and the thief on the cross who offered nothing and promised nothing to Jesus in return for his salvation but simply believed that Jesus would save him.

This post is continued on in Part two...

 

[JLR1300]

part two:

Now if you want to know how to be saved it is given in John 3:16. Believe in Jesus for salvation and don't look to yourself for salvation. Or look at Romans 4:5 "to the one who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness.
Righteousness is a gift bestowed upon the ungodly. Those who try to be righteous in themselves are called by Jesus the self-righteous.

Now one of the reasons many in the modern day Church believes in Salvation by faith plus morality is because of a misunderstanding about the word repentance in the new testament. The Greek word for repentance is Metanoia. It means to change your mind. It is used in the Greek septuagint 13 times to say that God changed His mind about something. The septuagint is what Jews in Jesus' day read. The Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Old testament into Greek knew that the word metanoia meant to change your mind and that is why they used that word to say that God changed His mind. If it meant to turn from sin they would have never have used it for God saying that He changed His mind.

In the new testament the Apostles who had been reading the septuagint all of their lives continued to use the word Metanoia (repent) in the same way. So in Acts chapters two and three, when Peter stood before the Jews who had rejected the belief that Jesus was the Messiah he called on them to change their minds (metanoia, repent). He was not calling on those strict bunch of pharisees who disbelieved in Jesus to quit dancing and drinking and cussing and chasing women. They were already trying to be saved by keeping the law so they weren't doing those things. Peter was calling on those unbelievers in Jesus to change their minds and believe. He was preaching faith alone just like Paul did.

Again when Paul preached that the idol worshipers should repent He was meaning that those who trust in idols must change their minds... and trust in Christ instead.

In Hebrews 6 when it says that the foundation of Christianity is repentance from dead works it means that in order to be saved we must change our minds about doing works for salvation (a work to earn salvation is a dead work)

Now all unsaved people have wrong beliefs about God. They think that God overlooks their sins and isn't really going to punish them. So they all must change their minds (repent) regarding God and then put their faith in Christ for salvation. That is why Paul taught repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Unbelieving sinners must change their minds about God and believe in Jesus.

John the Baptist was preaching that the Lamb of God would come and take away the sin of the world. The Pharisees believed that they didn't need a Messiah to take away their sin because they were righteous. So John told them to repent (change their minds) and confess that they were sinners. Then he told them that the fruits of repentance should follow their repentance. In other words, works should follow the change of mind wherein we come to believe that we are sinners and that the Messiah takes away our sins. The book of Acts tells us that John taught men "to believe on Him who will come after me"

Those who believe that we must turn from sin to be justified are unintentionally teaching justification by works. Jonah 3: 10 says that turning from evil is a work. "and God saw their works, that they turned from their evil ways." We are not saved by our works lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2.

So don't make the same mistake Israel of old did. Works do not save. In order to be saved you must abandon your attempt to do good to be saved and trust Christ alone to save you. Salvation is not by works like Promises and moral resolvings and pious commitments. It comes like it did to Abraham and the thief on the cross. Just look to Jesus and believe that His blood covers your sins. Don't worry, after that the Holy Spirit will enter you and then you can't help but produce the fruits of repentance. (works)

 

[Avid]

... Then he told them that the fruits of repentance should follow their repentance...

Have not taken on the task of answering all you have said, but just to clarify a little something here.

The Scribes and Pharisees came to John for the Baptism of Repentance, and John told them that there was no evidence of their repentance. He told them to bring forth fruit meet for repentance (worthy to be commended as repentance.) It was not real repentance because there was no fruit. This showed other people in that place that there is requirement to display the works of repentance before making the claim. Certainly, John was not going to take this imitation as the real thing.

There is a subtle thing we need to understand. Saying we repent does not mean what SHOWING we have repented means. Without fruit, there is no assumption that what we say is anything more than so many words out of the mouth of a sinner.

There may be many things to be said about what you have written, but this is a place to start.

 

[Avid]

... Those who believe that we must turn from sin to be justified are unintentionally teaching justification by works. Jonah 3: 10 says that turning from evil is a work. "and God saw their works, that they turned from their evil ways." We are not saved by our works lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2...

To say that doing what God commands is not what justifies us, or EARNS our salvation from God, is correct, right and good. To say these things mentioned in your post are not required would not be correct. These are impossible for man to do in the strength of the flesh, but they are still required. Thus, God offers His grace and His Holy Spirit in order to have these accomplished in the life of the believer.

Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Colossians 3
5 ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Colossians 3
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
​

The effort to show people they cannot earn the salvation of God should not hide the truth of God's requirements.

 

[JLR1300]

With regards to mortifiying the deeds of the flesh...It all depends on whether you are speaking of prior to justification or subsequent to justification. If you are trying to make all of those things about mortifying the flesh a requirement before justification can occur, then you are indeed teaching justification by works and morality. If you are saying that we are justified by faith alone but after we are justified the Holy Spirit regenerates us and enters us and inevitably leads us into a godly lifestyle in which we are led to more and more put off the old man with his deeds I can agree.

What I am saying is that... first we believe that Jesus is God and trust that His blood covers our sins and saves us apart from our works. That brings justification. Then the Spirit regenerates us and enters us and gives us godly desires by which we start striving to be Christlike. But I am saying that all who have been regenerated, since they have new natures, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, cannot help from seeking to live for Christ.

They may for a time fall into sin, but it is so against their new nature that they are miserable and the Holy Spirit within them will not let them continue in it, but will chasten and discipline them until they turn from their sin. But sanctification is a process. Where Paul says, if ye, through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body you shall live... the Greek says are mortifying the deeds .... or are putting to death the deeds... so it is an on going thing. (present active indicative)

But the mortification of the deeds of the flesh is something that the born again believer cannot help but do. As humans, since it is our nature to eat, we can stop eating for a while but not for long. No matter how hard we try we cannot stop eating. In the same way a person with a new born-again nature cannot keep from serving Christ. Maybe for a while he can, but not for long.

So when Paul says we have to follow the Spirit or we will die... he, in the very next verse, says " for as many as are led by the Spirit of God these are the sons of God" So a son of God is led by the Spirit of God and if you are not led by the Spirit of God you do not belong to God in the first place!!! It is automatic. You are not doing it to be saved... you are not following the Spirit to be saved... it's just a fact that, if you are a son of God you are led by the Spirit and you are following the Spirit as a general lifestyle and practice.

It like saying if you are born you are eating.... but you don't eat to get born. It is true in theory that now that you are born, if you do not eat you will die, but you cannot stop eating even if you wanted to. (Now I know that in theory you could starve yourself but no analogy is perfect because a born again believer cannot stop believing in Jesus and loving Him.)

Now scripture tells the believer that if they don't mortify sin they will die... but then scripture also tells a believer that they cannot actually lose their salvation and that they cannot really keep from mortifying the flesh and following the Spirit because all of the sons of God follow the Spirit.
Paul also says do not let sin have dominion over you but then he also says "for sin SHALL NOT have dominion over you" Declarative statement.

It is like if I tell my child to eat his food or he will die.... and yet I also know that he cannot really keep from eating because that is his nature as a human being... and besides as his father if he quit eating I would spank him so that he would eat. But my child is not eating to become my child. Plus with the nature he has, he cannot keep from eating and I will spank him if he does and then he will start eating again.

The whole point is not to put the cart before the horse. First the Holy Spirit brings us to faith. We change our minds (repent, Greek- metanoia) about trying to earn salvation and we believe that although we are sinners, nevertheless, the blood of Jesus saves us from the wrath of God and so we are going to heaven. That is faith. Then we are justified. then the Spirit gives us the new birth and enters us. That in turn causes sincere remorse for sin (repentance -metamelomai greek for regret) and a desire to live for Jesus. All Sons are led by the Spirit so we produce the fruits of the Spirit... love, goodness, self-control...etc. If we didn't mortify the deeds of the body we would die... but it's also true that we cannot keep from doing that ... it is our nature and God will spank us (chasten and discipline us) if we don't .... so we will.

One final thing... it is not OK to place a work BEFORE justification and say that since it is a work of the Spirit or a work of grace it is okay to require it. No works are allowed for justification even works done in the power of the Spirit. When the Judaizers told the Galatian Christians that they had to be circumcised to be justified Paul did not say that as long as the Holy Spirit was giving the people the willingness to be circumcised and the power to be circumcised then it was okay to require it.

You can't require a work for justification and then excuse it by saying that the Holy Spirit helps me to do it so it is a work of grace. You cannot demand a person say 20 hail Mary's to be justified and then say that it is okay so long as the Spirit helps you to do it. We are justified by faith alone and not by works of any kind. So we must not require the mortification of the deeds of the flesh prior to justification and then say that it really isn't a work because the Spirit helps us to do it. A work is a work regardless of one's motivation and power.

 

[Avid]

With regards to mortifiying the deeds of the flesh...It all depends on whether you are speaking of prior to justification or subsequent to justification. If you are trying to make all of those things about mortifying the flesh a requirement before justification can occur, then you are indeed teaching justification by works and morality. If you are saying that we are justified by faith alone but after we are justified the Holy Spirit regenerates us and enters us and inevitably leads us into a godly lifestyle in which we are led to more and more put off the old man with his deeds I can agree.

To say that doing what God commands is not what justifies us, or EARNS our salvation from God, is correct, right and good. To say these things mentioned in your post are not required would not be correct. These are impossible for man to do in the strength of the flesh, but they are still required. Thus, God offers His grace and His Holy Spirit in order to have these accomplished in the life of the believer.

Don't know what more needs to be said! Read and believe the scriptures posted above.

 

[Avid]

I didn't invent the idea, or imagine it. I did not take verses out of their context to arrive at these conclusions. These things are what our LORD had said, and His apostles, Paul and Peter, had said.

I showed words of Paul on the subject, and here are some of the words of Peter.

II Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
​

These are the words of our LORD.

Matthew 16
24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
​

These things you say begin to sound like you stand for the grace of God, but I'm showing you things we must do by the grace of God.