The Last Day

coraline said:

I see that too.
But we disagree of when that would happen & what Jesus meant by the "last day."

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So we can listen to the living and powerful word of God where we find the Apostles speaking of the coming Day of the Lord, and even warning against those who teach that it's already here or come and gone..

Or we can listen to those who do nothing but insist that it's a thing of the past.

That's pretty tricky but not subtil enough for most believers who are grounded and born again by the living and powerful nature of the holy scriptures.

Old Timer said:

This thread is about a future last day, the day when the Lord comes and destroys the man of sin by the brightness of His coming.

To suggest that the beast was a man of the past is to claim that Christ already came and that's just nonsense.

So please let's try to stick with a future coming of Christ

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Was Revelation sealed (22:10) like Daniel's prophecy (12:9) was?

random person said:

Was Revelation sealed (22:10) like Daniel's prophecy (12:9) was?

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I'm not sure what you're asking or what it has to do with the fact that the beast and false prophet are undeniably connected with the future coming of Christ as detailed in Rev 19.

There's no separating the beast of Revelation with the coming of Christ.

To claim either as a past event places them both in the past which is nonsensical, although I understand that many believe this.

Hopefully this thread is more centered upon the coming Day of the Lord, not a past one.

Old Timer said:

I'm not sure what you're asking or what it has to do with the fact that the beast and false prophet are undeniably connected with the future coming of Christ as detailed in Rev 19.

There's no separating the beast of Revelation with the coming of Christ.

To claim either as a past event places them both in the past which is nonsensical, although I understand that many believe this.

Hopefully this thread is more centered upon the coming Day of the Lord, not a past one.

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Here lemme assist you to see what I said more clearly...

Daniel 12:9 - for the words are closed up and sealed ... till the time of the end (fulfilled 600 years later thus it was sealed)

Rev. 22:10 - seal not the sayings of the prophecy ... for the time is at hand (not sealed because it was soon to be fulfilled NOT 1,900 years later!!!!!)

One was sealed because centuries would pass before it was fulfilled the other wasn't sealed .... because it was going to be fulfilled 1,900 or more years later? NOT HARDLY!)

So you're telling me that you believe the nonsense that Christ already came and defeated the beast and the false prophet in.. let me guess,

AD70?

Yeah, that's a good one. You almost got me.

iamlamad said in post 192:

The door to salvation is beginning to move....soon it will close forever, and the "church age" will be OVER.

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Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 192:

All I can do is warn you that many will be LEFT BEHIND to face the hardest time this earth has ever seen, or will ever see.

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Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 192:

God's will is that you follow Luke 21:36.

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Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

random person said in post 204:

Daniel 12:9 - for the words are closed up and sealed ... till the time of the end (fulfilled 600 years later thus it was sealed)

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The "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the first century AD. Therefore, "the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must indeed be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what's going to happen in our future by seeing how much these two books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't contradict the fact that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers to only the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" that Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which have never been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the first century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

One part of Daniel that could have remained sealed until recently is the understanding of Daniel 12:11-12.

Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

random person said in post 204:

Rev. 22:10 - seal not the sayings of the prophecy ... for the time is at hand (not sealed because it was soon to be fulfilled NOT 1,900 years later!!!!!)

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In Revelation 22:10,6 and Revelation 1:1,3 "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

coraline said:

Well, the "church age" has no end. See my thread "world without end, amen for the exegesis on the "church age,"

And my question to you is : has Jesus said He would come "quickly" for 2,000 years?

See, that is one of the reasons I disagree with your thinking.

That sounds too confusing for God to say. And we know that God doesn't create confusion.

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God does not create sin either - but many believers sin. God does not create confusion, but many believers are confused.

Your confusion comes from not understanding what "quickly" means to God.
Did you forget what Paul wrote? ( I am convinced Paul wrote it)

Heb. 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Paul and the Holy Spirit considered that time to be "these last days," yet almost 2000 years have past. So "last days" of WHAT? OF course the last days of the TIME OR AGE they were living in.

So 2000 years are "quickly" to God, who lives outside the dimension of time.

May I suggest, instead of concentrating on a few random words in the gospels, you concentrate on the book of Revelation; the trumpet judgments and vials that are STILL FUTURE.

Again you are WRONG. The bible is clear that a door CLOSES, yet you say it remains open. I will take GOD'S WORD on this, not your word . Did you just MISS the fact that others TRIED TO GET IN, but the door was CLOSED? What? Have you never been locked out of some place you wanted INto? I have been locked out of my own car on several occasions, and had to BREAK IN. There will be NO BREAKING IN to the door of salvation (born again) once it is closed. When a heavenly door closes, it is CLOSED.

Mat. 25
10 ... and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luke 13:25
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’

Question: DID THEY GET IN?

LAMAD

re young-earth creationists who are also futurists:
the problem with saying the 2000 years since the Christ event was quick is that no YEC&F ever says that about the "4000" years before it. Instead they read passages from Psalms about God being our helper in ages past or from one generation to another, and that is never viewed as being a mere tick of a second hand. Those passages were how over vast amount of time, generations and ages, God had been the refuge of the faithful.

Going into the events of the 6th decade in Judea, the apostles thought everything was going to be wrapped up for the whole world. First it was to be a storm of events in Judea, and then the rest of the world.

Except that God had allowed for the final day of judgement of the whole world to be delayed. Only the Father knew that (Jesus is not referring there to all the exact detail he had just given about that generation in Judea--he knew that and he was authorized to warn about that). And no one knows if "the master" would return at one of 4 options mentioned in the steward-of-the-house imagery.

The apostles spoke everywhere as though their times was the complete end. To be on the safe side, they prepared for that. Paul was concerned to, and succeeded in, reaching "the whole world" as he knew it (Rom 15, Col 1, 1 Tim 3).

All these things are completely different conceptions of time from futurism as I understand it.

iamlamad said:

God does not create sin either - but many believers sin. God does not create confusion, but many believers are confused.

Your confusion comes from not understanding what "quickly" means to God.
Did you forget what Paul wrote? ( I am convinced Paul wrote it)

Heb. 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Paul and the Holy Spirit considered that time to be "these last days," yet almost 2000 years have past. So "last days" of WHAT? OF course the last days of the TIME OR AGE they were living in.

So 2000 years are "quickly" to God, who lives outside the dimension of time.

May I suggest, instead of concentrating on a few random words in the gospels, you concentrate on the book of Revelation; the trumpet judgments and vials that are STILL FUTURE.

Again you are WRONG. The bible is clear that a door CLOSES, yet you say it remains open. I will take GOD'S WORD on this, not your word . Did you just MISS the fact that others TRIED TO GET IN, but the door was CLOSED? What? Have you never been locked out of some place you wanted INto? I have been locked out of my own car on several occasions, and had to BREAK IN. There will be NO BREAKING IN to the door of salvation (born again) once it is closed. When a heavenly door closes, it is CLOSED.

Mat. 25
10 ... and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luke 13:25
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord,open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’

Question: DID THEY GET IN?

LAMAD

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God's word NEVER prophesies in the N.T. about events 2,000 or 5,000 years in the future.

You should never form your doctrine on parables alone , nor the obscure & figurative words in Revelation either.

You don't seem to understand the Matthew 25 parable either. It is a judgment of Israel's sheep & goats.

What is key is that Jesus told his audience about "works" for salvation. He said giving a cup of water, visiting in jail, etc, made for judgment or not on how these other Jews treated the "brethren of Mine" (ie: the apostles, while spreading the Good news gospel)

Salvation is not based on "works" of the law in the new covenant of grace.

The Old Testament speaks of the Day of the Lord perhaps more than the New Testament does, unless you also consider the latter chapters of the Revelation as pertaining to the Day of the Lord.

The point being that even the ancient OT scriptures speak of the Day of the Lord, a future event, described in precise detail thousands of years prior.

Can we see that Day approaching, or are we overly obsessed with the past?

coraline said in post 210:

God's word NEVER prophesies in the N.T. about events 2,000 or 5,000 years in the future.

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That's right.

But God's word prophesies in the N.T. about events 2,000 or 3,000 years in the future of the N.T. writers, just as God's word in the O.T. contains prophecies of events that wouldn't occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

coraline said in post 210:

Salvation is not based on "works" of the law in the new covenant of grace.

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That's right.

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Old Timer said:

The Old Testament speaks of the Day of the Lord perhaps more than the New Testament does, unless you also consider the latter chapters of the Revelation as pertaining to the Day of the Lord.

The point being that even the ancient OT scriptures speak of the Day of the Lord, a future event, described in precise detail thousands of years prior.

Can we see that Day approaching, or are we overly obsessed with the past?

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Good post!

LAMAD

coraline said:

God's word NEVER prophesies in the N.T. about events 2,000 or 5,000 years in the future.

You should never form your doctrine on parables alone , nor the obscure & figurative words in Revelation either.

You don't seem to understand the Matthew 25 parable either. It is a judgment of Israel's sheep & goats.

What is key is that Jesus told his audience about "works" for salvation. He said giving a cup of water, visiting in jail, etc, made for judgment or not on how these other Jews treated the "brethren of Mine" (ie: the apostles, while spreading the Good news gospel)

Salvation is not based on "works" of the law in the new covenant of grace.

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Oh, REALLY? Just WHEN did we get a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH, because the old heaven (the stars we see, plus the entire solar system) passed away and no place was found for them? Oh, wait! That event has not happened yet - so is still FAR, FAR into our future.

WHO TOLD YOU that Revelation is to be read as figurative? Is there a verse in Revelation that TELLS US this? Yes, certainly a Beast with mulitply heads is to be taken as figurative, but the 1000 years? Did you ever read this hint to understanding Revelation?

If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense.

Did you not notice that there is MUCH "nonsense" on this forum concerning Revelation? The several mentions of the 1000 years makes PERFECT sense in their literal sense. But there are those here that consider them as figurative so end up writing nonsense.

Let me ask a question? If God really meant a time of 1000 years, HOW WOULD HE WRITE THAT so that people would consider it a real 1000 years?

Baaaa! You are a good sheep! Stand here on my right. Baaa! You are a very bad goat! Stand here on my left. Oh! Perhaps God was using figurative language here? You suppose the sheep are to represent the good people of all nations (ethnic groups) , and the goats to represent bad people of all nations (ethnic groups)? Did you just miss this part: "before him shall be gathered all nations"?

For anyone that wishes to answer: does this mean just the leaders of nations and the nation as a whole unit judged? Did the nation as a whole provide a refuge for Jews and members of other tribes trying to hide? Or does this mean every last human left on earth, judged as either a sheep (someone that tried to help the Jews being hunted down as animals) or a goat (someone that did not do ANYTHING to help, not even a glass of water. In other words, would God judge a "sheep" individual as a goat because he or she was living in a "goat" nation because that nation as a whole was a goat nation? (Consider, we have nations today that carry a death penalty for anyone preaching the gospel.) I don't think He would.

Coraline, it seems you don't understand this parable either. This judgment is about FUTURE events; the days of great tribulation that is FUTURE. Of course, if you think most of Revelation is history, you would miss the truth of the judgment of the nations. There is coming a time quite like in Germany and Poland, where Jews were hunted down like animals, and massacred. But this time, in our near future, this man-hunt will also include the "remnant" of the "woman's seed, all those who believe in Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12) It will be a remnant because the pretrib rapture will take out many before this, leaving only a remnant left on earth: those LEFT BEHIND and new believers.

This manhunt coming in the future will be FAR WORSE than Hitler's regime, which was limited to a small area of earth. What is coming will be almost world-wide, because Satan, the god of this present world, will give authority to the Beast (yes, still future) over many, if not all of the nations of the world. This is why Jesus said these days of GT coming will be worse that even seen on earth, and worse than anything future on earth. There will be VERY few places to hide.

By the way; just to set the record straight, Hitler killed FAR MORE Jews that ever were killed in 70 AD. It was "great tribulation" in Jerusalem in 70 AD to be sure, but it was WORSE "great tribulation" in Germany and Poland during Hitler's regime. But the days of "great tribulation" coming, the days Jesus spoke of, will be FAR WORSE, because it will be worldwide.

This judgment of the nations will be about what each nation will do concerning hiding, protecting, or helping in any way, the Jews and Christians who will be hunted down to be beheaded.

LAMAD

We got a new heaven and earth just as God predicted in Isaiah 65.

You need to understand that the phrase "heaven and earth" doesn't mean the literal heaven and earth of creation in Gen1:1.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
Let's look at the use of "heaven and earth" in Scripture and see if they have some other meaning besides the literal physical heavens and earth. If you want to know what a term means in the New Testament, you need to go back to the Old Testament and see what it meant there. If it was used a certain way in the Old Testament, wouldn't it make sense that Jesus and the New Testament writer would use those expressions in the same way? We must get our understanding of "heaven and earth" from the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Who is God talking to here? In the song of Moses, God is speaking to Israel. He calls them, "O heavens," and, "O earth." He is clearly not speaking to the physical heavens and earth, but to Israel. Notice what he says to them in:

Deuteronomy 32:22 (NKJV) For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

God is not talking here about burning up the physical earth. God is using apocalyptic and symbolic language to warn Israel of judgement that He will bring upon them. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up.

In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;





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We got a new heaven and earth just as God predicted in Isaiah 65.

You need to understand that the phrase "heaven and earth" doesn't mean the literal heaven and earth of creation in Gen1:1.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Let's look at the use of "heaven and earth" in Scripture and see if they have some other meaning besides the literal physical heavens and earth. If you want to know what a term means in the New Testament, you need to go back to the Old Testament and see what it meant there. If it was used a certain way in the Old Testament, wouldn't it make sense that Jesus and the New Testament writer would use those expressions in the same way? We must get our understanding of "heaven and earth" from the Old Testament: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Who is God talking to here? In the song of Moses, God is speaking to Israel. He calls them, "O heavens," and, "O earth." He is clearly not speaking to the physical heavens and earth, but to Israel. Notice what he says to them in: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Deuteronomy 32:22 (NKJV) For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]God is not talking here about burning up the physical earth. God is using apocalyptic and symbolic language to warn Israel of judgement that He will bring upon them. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;[/FONT]

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Did you hear about the earthquake in S.C.,yesterday?My point,had the earth been rejuvinated,as it shall be,that would not have happened.....Floods,droughts,tornadoes,hurricanes,and all other natural dieasters,will ceases to be........Oh,all evil shall cease to be as well

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The "elements" are not the elements that you think of, such as gold, iron, oxygen and so on, but they are the "evil rudiments" that go to make up the evil in this earth age. This includes the evil spirits, the fallen angels, and all the things and forms of idolatry that cause flesh man to sin. The time of this burning will be at God's appointed time, so this verse is addressed to all those things that go to offend our Heavenly Father.

Heck,might as well keep going,question....Why are the people in the below scripture still around?

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

iamlamad said:

Good post!

LAMAD

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Thanks LAMAD,

Although I can see that it's pointless speaking to the preterists here. I asked them to leave but they can't.

They can't leave their obsession with AD70, they must spread their cancer around until there's no faith left.

That's what they do, so sorry about that. I would be a nice thread to discuss that coming Day which many can see approaching, although we must also remember that the enemy works as well, as they know that their time is short.

One last word on the preterists..

It's not so much that they are obsessed with AD70 as it is the fact that they're obsessed with the destruction of Jerusalem, which is the city of the great King.

The god of this present evil world is working diligently to wipe the nation of Israel off of the face of the earth and therefore prove God a liar through his prophetic word.

Ain't gonna happen.

Preterists insist that it already did happen.

The god of this present evil world is also working to convince the masses that the Day of the Lord already came a long time ago, once again, in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem, the city of the great King.

The god of this world desires you to hate Israel and rejoice in its being destroyed in AD70, whereas the truth of the prophetic scriptures show that nation and city being delivered in the end, even taken through that dreadful time of hell on earth which shall come upon the whole world.

Satan wants nothing more for you to believe that it's a thing of the ancient past.

Who you going to listen to?

The prophetic scriptures could not be more precise and clear concerning the deliverance of Israel in the end, how that they're even protected from the Dragon cast down to the earth in that dreadful Day.

And most of Christendom is asleep as they have embraced the doctrines of devils concerning the end times.. things like amillenialism, preterism, all simply lies from the deceiver wanting you to believe firmly that it's all in past and that it can't possibly happen in the future.

Now I can't speak for you, although I can clearly see that Day approaching.

Stop listening to the nonsense of the deceiver who wants you to believe that it's all in the past... and that the scriptures can't possibly speak to the future of this planet.

/02

iamlamad said:

Oh, REALLY? Just WHEN did we get a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH, because the old heaven (the stars we see, plus the entire solar system) passed away and no place was found for them? Oh, wait! That event has not happened yet - so is still FAR, FAR into our future.

WHO TOLD YOU that Revelation is to be read as figurative? Is there a verse in Revelation that TELLS US this? Yes, certainly a Beast with mulitply heads is to be taken as figurative, but the 1000 years? Did you ever read this hint to understanding Revelation?

If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense.

Did you not notice that there is MUCH "nonsense" on this forum concerning Revelation? The several mentions of the 1000 years makes PERFECT sense in their literal sense. But there are those here that consider them as figurative so end up writing nonsense.

Let me ask a question? If God really meant a time of 1000 years, HOW WOULD HE WRITE THAT so that people would consider it a real 1000 years?

Baaaa! You are a good sheep! Stand here on my right. Baaa! You are a very bad goat! Stand here on my left. Oh! Perhaps God was using figurative language here? You suppose the sheep are to represent the good people of all nations (ethnic groups) , and the goats to represent bad people of all nations (ethnic groups)? Did you just miss this part: "before him shall be gathered all nations"?

For anyone that wishes to answer: does this mean just the leaders of nations and the nation as a whole unit judged? Did the nation as a whole provide a refuge for Jews and members of other tribes trying to hide? Or does this mean every last human left on earth, judged as either a sheep (someone that tried to help the Jews being hunted down as animals) or a goat (someone that did not do ANYTHING to help, not even a glass of water. In other words, would God judge a "sheep" individual as a goat because he or she was living in a "goat" nation because that nation as a whole was a goat nation? (Consider, we have nations today that carry a death penalty for anyone preaching the gospel.) I don't think He would.

Coraline, it seems you don't understand this parable either. This judgment is about FUTURE events; the days of great tribulation that is FUTURE. Of course, if you think most of Revelation is history, you would miss the truth of the judgment of the nations. There is coming a time quite like in Germany and Poland, where Jews were hunted down like animals, and massacred. But this time, in our near future, this man-hunt will also include the "remnant" of the "woman's seed, all those who believe in Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12) It will be a remnant because the pretrib rapture will take out many before this, leaving only a remnant left on earth: those LEFT BEHIND and new believers.

This manhunt coming in the future will be FAR WORSE than Hitler's regime, which was limited to a small area of earth. What is coming will be almost world-wide, because Satan, the god of this present world, will give authority to the Beast (yes, still future) over many, if not all of the nations of the world. This is why Jesus said these days of GT coming will be worse that even seen on earth, and worse than anything future on earth. There will be VERY few places to hide.

By the way; just to set the record straight, Hitler killed FAR MORE Jews that ever were killed in 70 AD. It was "great tribulation" in Jerusalem in 70 AD to be sure, but it was WORSE "great tribulation" in Germany and Poland during Hitler's regime. But the days of "great tribulation" coming, the days Jesus spoke of, will be FAR WORSE, because it will be worldwide.

This judgment of the nations will be about what each nation will do concerning hiding, protecting, or helping in any way, the Jews and Christians who will be hunted down to be beheaded.

LAMAD

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Old Timer said:

One last word on the preterists..

It's not so much that they are obsessed with AD70 as it is the fact that they're obsessed with the destruction of Jerusalem, which is the city of the great King.

The god of this present evil world is working diligently to wipe the nation of Israel off of the face of the earth and therefore prove God a liar through his prophetic word.

Ain't gonna happen.

Preterists insist that it already did happen.

The god of this present evil world is also working to convince the masses that the Day of the Lord already came a long time ago, once again, in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem, the city of the great King.

The god of this world desires you to hate Israel and rejoice in its being destroyed in AD70, whereas the truth of the prophetic scriptures show that nation and city being delivered in the end, even taken through that dreadful time of hell on earth which shall come upon the whole world.

Satan wants nothing more for you to believe that it's a thing of the ancient past.

Who you going to listen to?

The prophetic scriptures could not be more precise and clear concerning the deliverance of Israel in the end, how that they're even protected from the Dragon cast down to the earth in that dreadful Day.

And most of Christendom is asleep as they have embraced the doctrines of devils concerning the end times.. things like amillenialism, preterism, all simply lies from the deceiver wanting you to believe firmly that it's all in past and that it can't possibly happen in the future.

Now I can't speak for you, although I can clearly see that Day approaching.

Stop listening to the nonsense of the deceiver who wants you to believe that it's all in the past... and that the scriptures can't possibly speak to the future of this planet.

/02

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