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Don't I know it. I have been active here since Clinton was prez. I realized early on that hard core members of heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach but I toil on in hopes I can reach some on the fringe, thinking about joining or leaving such groups. Them folks post their arguments and I post the real-deal. And I have had some success. Enough to keep me going.
There is zero indication in the canon that there is repentance once an unbeliever dies! By implication there is strong evidence there isn't!
More accurate, literal & honest translations say:
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)
...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".
Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”
2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.
Nothing = adynateō
Luke 1:37
"For with God nothing shall be impossible."
Romans 8:38
"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus."
adynateō =
Cannot be done.
Impossible.
Our God is the God of UN (limited)
More accurate according to you and your small cadre of fellow URers. now go find out what ages unto ages means to the average greek speaker and stop being so benighted!
What's the problem?
Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.
Be filthy...still...but not forever.
Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:
Nothing is impossible with god!
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
The dead are dead. The scriptures are very clear on this.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Well seeing as you didn't pay attention the first time I wrote it, I will write it one more time!
The historical accouont of Lazarus and the rich man was told to the disciples and not the masses or the pharisees. The pharisees just happened to be there when Jesus was teaching His disciples!
Luke 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
See His disciples!!! Not the masses!!!!!!!
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
See He wasn't speaking to the Pharisees, they just heard Him teaching HIS DISCIPLES!
So Luke 16 contains no parables, they were accounts Lord Jesus knew of and told His Disciples not the crowds!
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
All we have to do is pay attention ot what is written and we won't go astray!
The Lord will not cast off forever- that was for OT Israel. The church will never be cast off!
XYZ said:Your claims to LAMANTATION 3 being to the unrepentant wicked has been proven false already by showing the context you leave out of the text you use to try and claim reconciliation of the unrepentant wicked. LAMANTATIONS 3 scripture context you leave out show that the chapter is about ISRAEL that has sinned against God and retuned to God in repentance and that reconciliation of ISRAEL (God's people) takes place after repentance.
Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...
[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:
[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.
Your just repeating yourself and your same cut and paste without addressing this post addressing your claims here multiple time. The last more detailed reply was posted in post # 1392 linked here. Your just repeating yourself again with continious cut and past without responding to the scripture that prove context that your application of them is in error.
XYZ said:The scriptures your providing are written for God's people and have application to God's people not the wicked.
XYZ said:You have not addressed anything in my earliar post the shows the context you left out.
XYZ said:Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address.
XYZ said:I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.
XYZ said:Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....
Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...
[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:
[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.
...............
Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.
It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.
Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.
Also:
John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
A person with a spiritual IQ of 1/2 knows that if Gods wrath is abiding on someone- they are separated from the love of God!
Read all the Bible so you can get the full picture!
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36
How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.
Then be consistent and not tossed to and fro! Jesus used those same "weak words" to describe how long believers will be in heaven ! In case you never heard redfining words to fit your own beliefs is hypocrisy!
XYZ said:It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.
XYZ said:It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.
XYZ said:Let us look at this verse again:
"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).
Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.
YOU call my verses lame and failing, but your arguments are all from silence without any biblical support for your hypothesis.
YOu are trying to make an argument from silence and lousy linguistics. still defines as REMAN and as it is a command from God.....
If it is not forever show the passage that gives repentance in the lake of fire!!!!!
The silence from you is deafening on this!
That's some major straw clutching you've got going on there.
Or as others call it- acepting the Word of God as written not as retranslated to fit an agenda.
You are such a hoot.
ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ (דֶאֱלָהָא מַלְכוּתָא)
Glad I amuse you !
The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.
It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
Your problem, (among the megas problems in your scope), is you do indeed limit the God of Israel.
Shame be upon you!
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