The Kosher Judaism Thread

[chokmah]

Hi all!



No.

This is what I heard from a rabbi in our old neighborhood in Jerusalem (the rabbi in question teaches at a yeshiva in the Old City). He said that he personally knows a Noachide who offers pigeons to God on some kind of regular basis.

Be well!

ssv

Shalom ssv:

Thanks for the response.

Follow-up Questions: do you know if the Noachide follows a particular set of guidelines? from the Torah? from elsewhere? If there are guidelines, then are they available to read?

 

[WhatIsTruth]

Just a question...

Can someone explain to me what a Noachide is and what they do?

Like do they follow Kosher laws or something else?

Do they observe Shabbat?

**Is confrazzeled and inquiring minds would like to know*

 

[chokmah]

Just a question...

Can someone explain to me what a Noachide is and what they do?

Here's a thread on it: Noachide

And here's some background information from within the thread:

The Noahide laws, also called the Brit Noah (Covenant of Noah) are the mitzvot (commandments) and halakhot (laws) that Judaism teaches that all non-Jews are morally bound to follow. They are listed in the Talmud and elaborated on by post-Talmudic authorities. Opinions differ on the reach of these commandments and the laws derived from them, but all contemporary authorities agree that there are seven commandments. These commandments and laws are based on exegesis of Genesis 2:16 and 9:4-6.

Origin

According to the Biblical narrative, the Deluge covered the whole world killing everyone except Noah and his family and the creatures of the ark. After the flood, God seals a convenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9):

• Food: "Also, flesh with the life -the blood- in it do not eat." (9:4)
• Murder: "I will also inquire about your blood, your life, from all animals, and from each human I will inquire about his brother's blood. Who sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed, because in the image of God was man made."

The Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 56a/b, quoting Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4) states that the instruction to not eat "flesh with the life" was given to Noah, and that Adam and Eve had already received six other commandments in Paradise. The remaining six are derived from a seeming superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16.

The seven laws

The seven laws are:

1. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
2. Gezel - Do not steal/kidnap.
3. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods/idols.
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, sodomy, male homosexual sex acts and adultery)
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not blaspheme.
6. Dinim - Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.
7. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal (given to Noah)

The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any person who lives according to these laws is known as "the righteous among the gentiles". Maimonides states that this refers to those who have acquired knowledge of God and act in accordance with the Noahide laws.

Definition of Noahides

According to rabbinic Judaism, as expressed in the Talmud, the Noahide Laws apply to all humanity through their descent from one paternal ancestor who in Hebrew tradition is called Noah (the head of the only family to survive during The Flood). In Judaism, B'nai Noach (Hebrew, "Descendants of Noah", "Children of Noah") refers to all Humans, but Noahide has come to refer to non-Jews who live in accord with the seven Noahide Laws; the term "observant Noahide" would be more precise but is infrequently used. A non-Jewish person of any ethnicity or religion is refered to as a bat (daughter)/ben (son) of Noah but usually an organization calling itself B'nai Noach would most likely be composed of gentiles believing that they are keeping the Noahide Laws. There is some controversy concerning whether or not a gentile may declare him/herself to be a keeper of the Noahide Laws or whether such a qualification can only be bestowed upon a gentile by a Beth Din (rabbinical court). Those adamant that B'nei Noah can only refer to noahides who believe they are keeping the Brit Noah take the stance that a Gentile can declare oneself to be a keeper of the Brit, while more orthodox parties feel rather than deciding for themselves Gentiles must submit themselves to the qualification stipulated in revelation but this consequently leads to the necessity for Torah Scholars (usually 3) to test identify and confer such status upon them.

Judaism holds that gentiles (non-Jews) are not obligated to follow the same halakha that Jews are obligated to follow. Though there is at least one well-documented case in which a Jewish state required all subjects to conform to Jewish beliefs and practices (in effect, to become Jewish), Rabbinic Judaism and its modern-day descendents discourage proselytization and interprets the historical data as evidence of the Jewish mission to "noahidify" gentiles. Noahide Laws may be considered the way to have a meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with a minimum threshold of divine law.

Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah (The laws of kings and their rulership 8:11) that a Geir Toshav who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned the afterlife. This follows a similar statement in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 105b). However, according to Maimonides, a share in the World to Come is only earned if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because they consider them to be of divine origin (through the Torah) and not if they simply consider them a good way to live (in which case they would simply be wise, a Nochri). Other authorities do not make this distinction.

Noahide law differs from the Roman law for gentiles (ius gentium) because the latter was an enforceable judicial policy. Rabbinic Judaism has never adjudicated any cases under Noahide law (per Novak, 1983:28ff.), although scholars disagree about whether the Noahide law is a functional part of Halakha (cp. Bleich).

Like do they follow Kosher laws or something else?

I, personally, attempt to follow Kashrut according to dietary types. I don't eat pork, shell-fish, catfish, so on and so forth. I find that it upsets my digestive track.

Kashrut is a set of commandments that Noachides are permitted/encouraged to follow.

Do they observe Shabbat?

Not permitted to according to the manner that the Jews do. Noachides can consider it a solemn and holy day to observe though. *just not in the same manner as Jews*

**Is confrazzeled and inquiring minds would like to know*

And some of us (me, in particular) love to answer questions about our beliefs.

 

[WhatIsTruth]

THanks....Sounds very interesting..I'm definatly going to do some more research on it...

Incidently is that a tattoo picture in your avatar...It just kind of looks like one...well with my pityfull eyes it does

 

[chokmah]

THanks....Sounds very interesting..I'm definatly going to do some more research on it...

Incidently is that a tattoo picture in your avatar...It just kind of looks like one...well with my pityfull eyes it does

You're more than welcome. If I may, then I would like to recommend that you go to this site first. AskNoah is the only site I recommend at the moment. There are some other fringe groups that spread a LOT of disinformation.

Feel free to use me as a resource as well. If I don't know the answers, then I'll get them for you. (and you can just use the Noachide thread I linked you to)

RE: the avatar.

Yes (to the angst of some of my Jewish friends), that is a tattoo of "chokmah" on my body.

I have Chokmah (wisdom) on my right forearm, Madaw (scientific knowledge) on my left, and I have Binah (understanding) on my left pectoral muscle. The Binah is the latest addition and it is printed over a Christian tattoo that I have. The symbology of that is, to me, very dear.

Just FYI, chokmah and madaw are what Solomon asked from G-d in 2 Chronicles.

 

[peepnklown]

And some of us (me, in particular) love to answer questions about our beliefs.

I was thinking about becoming a Noachide but I love shell-fish!







Oh, and I don’t believe in God.

 

[chokmah]

I was thinking about becoming a Noachide but I love shell-fish!

There's no commandment to eat Kashrut.

Oh, and I don’t believe in God.

Well... truth be told, if the Genesis story is correct about Noach, then you, literally, are a B'nei Noach (child of Noach). It's just a matter of whether you follow the tenets or not.

I've never asked you before, peep, what is your opinion of the Seven Laws? Do you follow the majority of them anyway?

 

[peepnklown]

It's just a matter of whether you follow the tenets or not.

I am a child of Lot!

1 – Not to deny God, failed.

2 – Not to blaspheme God, failed.

3 – Not to murder, passed.

4 – Not to engage in incestuous, adulterous, bestial or homosexual relationships, passed.

5 – Not to steal, failed.

6 – Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal; does seafood count?

7 – To set up courts to ensure obedience to the other six laws, failed.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Shalom ssv:

Thanks for the response.

Follow-up Questions: do you know if the Noachide follows a particular set of guidelines? from the Torah? from elsewhere? If there are guidelines, then are they available to read?

You're welcome!

No.

No.

Yes; see http://www.ou.org/TORAH/tt/5764/noach64/mikdash.htm.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Lately I have been jamming out with Tuvia Bolton;http://www.tuviabolton.com/listen.htm


Check out the Shalom song under the album " Behind Castle Wall". Makes me chuckle every time.

 

[muslim_convert]

Do Jews believe in the coming of what Christians would call "The AntiChrist" and Muslims would call "Dajjal", or anything like this?

salaams

 

[chokmah]

Do Jews believe in the coming of what Christians would call "The AntiChrist" and Muslims would call "Dajjal", or anything like this?

salaams

The Jews are awaiting HaMoshiach, the Messiah.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

BS'D

Shalom muslim_convert,

Do Jews believe in the coming of what Christians would call "The AntiChrist" and Muslims would call "Dajjal", or anything like this?

salaams

No, Judaism does not have a figure that would be considered similiar to the Dajjal.

 

[muslim_convert]

thanks chokmah and bourbonfromheaven
i didn't think so. just wanted confirmation.
salaams

 

[muslim_convert]

On another point, from a discussion i had with a Jew i met while visiting a church (believe it or not!) and some reading, i got the impression that Jewish scriptures require that you remain "in exile", spreading a message of God and obeying the laws of your adopted country, only returning to the Promised Land once the true messiah has come. Is this correct?

salaams
EDIT to add, the Jew described herself as orthodox

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

BS'D

Shalom Muslimconvert,

]On another point, from a discussion i had with a Jew i met while visiting a church (believe it or not!)

I'm not sure a church is place for Jews educated in Judaism.

i got the impression that Jewish scriptures require that you remain "in exile", spreading a message of God and obeying the laws of your adopted country

We indeed, are in exile. We are waiting for the Messiah to return and bring about the world to come. We spread our message, by trying to lead by example. We hope, every good deed we do, becomes contagious unto everyone. We are very evangelical, in the sense, we want all of humanity to acknowledge the one true God, indivisable and perfect. However, you will not see Jews on street corners, passing out pamplets.

only returning to the Promised Land once the true messiah has come. Is this correct?

Yes, only when the Messiah comes, will all of Israel return. Today's secular state of Israel is not the model of what we expect.



Peace Chaver

 

[muslim_convert]

BS'D

Shalom Muslimconvert,



I'm not sure a church is place for Jews educated in Judaism.



We indeed, are in exile. We are waiting for the Messiah to return and bring about the world to come. We spread our message, by trying to lead by example. We hope, every good deed we do, becomes contagious unto everyone. We are very evangelical, in the sense, we want all of humanity to acknowledge the one true God, indivisable and perfect. However, you will not see Jews on street corners, passing out pamplets.



Yes, only when the Messiah comes, will all of Israel return. Today's secular state of Israel is not the model of what we expect.



Peace Chaver

Is the current "secular state of Israel" foretold, or at least hinted at, in your scriptures?



salaams

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Is the current "secular state of Israel" foretold, or at least hinted at, in your scriptures?

You might find this article, entitled The Religious Significance of the State of Israel by noted Israeli Rabbi Yehuda Amital, to be both interesting & relevant: http://www.vbm-torah.org/yyerush/atz59.htm. This http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/israel/no1.html, by Rabbi Yehudah Prero, is also good.

Is the current State of Israel referred to specifically in the Tanakh? No. But do we not see in it the embodiment of many, many prophecies regarding the ingathering of our exiles & the rebuilding of our waste places? Of course! But was God's handiwork & His miracles manifest in its making? Of course! Who could either doubt or not see such a thing? While the cup of our redemption may only be half-full at the present (and for this we praise God !), we are optimistic & confident that it will soon not only be full, but overflow!

The (modern orthodox) prayer for the State of Israel (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Modern_Holidays/Yom_Haatzmaut/Prayer.htm) refers to the current state, in all its secular imperfections (which it is our solemn duty & obligation to rectify; see below), as "the dawn of our redemption." This coming Saturday/Shabbat, the Shabbat of Chanukah, we will read Zechariah 2:14-4:7 in synagogue. This reading is doubly significant vis-a-vis the modern State of Israel. The symbol/seal of the state, the seven-branched candelabra/menorah with two olive branches on either side (see the attached photo) is taken from 4:2-3. In Zechariah 3, Zechariah has a vision of High Priest Joshua (the first High Priest after the return from Babylon after the destruction of the First Temple). Joshua is clad in "filthy garments" (the literal Hebrew is "excrement-smeared garments") and is referred to as "a brand plucked from the fire." God then commands that the filthy garments be removed & that Joshua be dressed in priestly garb. Isn't the State of Israel, literally, a brand plucked from the fire(s of the Holocaust and the wars of annihilation that have been launched against us)? What are the "filthy garments" if not death camp garb? But just as God does not assure Joshua of unconditional redemption & tells him that he has to earn it (3:6-10) and that he and the revived Jewish commonwealth have the potential of heralding the coming of the Messiah (3:8), so too do we, in this generation, in our revived Jewish commonwealth, have similar responsibilities & a similar potential.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[Fenris]

Another point about the State of Israel- sure, it's leaders aren't perfedct and it is a secular country. But if one reads through the Tanach they will see that the kings of Israel back then were nothing to write home about either. Many of them were wicked men, idol worshippers, etc. Yet no one denies that they were still the kings, or that the country was still Israel.

 

[chokmah]

ssv:

Have there been multiple times in the past 2000 years where this exact presentation of yours could be rendered equivalent?

The (modern orthodox) prayer for the State of Israel (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/hol...maut/Prayer.htm) refers to the current state, in all its secular imperfections (which it is our solemn duty & obligation to rectify; see below), as "the dawn of our redemption." This coming Saturday/Shabbat, the Shabbat of Chanukah, we will read Zechariah 2:14-4:7 in synagogue. This reading is doubly significant vis-a-vis the modern State of Israel. The symbol/seal of the state, the seven-branched candelabra/menorah with two olive branches on either side (see the attached photo) is taken from 4:2-3. In Zechariah 3, Zechariah has a vision of High Priest Joshua (the first High Priest after the return from Babylon after the destruction of the First Temple). Joshua is clad in "filthy garments" (the literal Hebrew is "excrement-smeared garments") and is referred to as "a brand plucked from the fire." God then commands that the filthy garments be removed & that Joshua be dressed in priestly garb. Isn't the State of Israel, literally, a brand plucked from the fire(s of the Holocaust and the wars of annihilation that have been launched against us)? What are the "filthy garments" if not death camp garb? But just as God does not assure Joshua of unconditional redemption & tells him that he has to earn it (3:6-10) and that he and the revived Jewish commonwealth have the potential of heralding the coming of the Messiah (3:8), so too do we, in this generation, in our revived Jewish commonwealth, have similar responsibilities & a similar potential.

In simple English, are we in a special time of history or are the children of Israel given this opportunity over and over again until the time of Messiah is right?