The KJVO myth...

SaintCody777 said:

KJVOs often complain that new Bible versions, including the the NKJV, downplay the diety and Lordship of Jesus Christ. But I find a big flaw in the KJV (and NIV) that the NKJV actually corrects. the NKJV actually capitalizes any word or pronoun that has to do with God/Yahweh/Jehovah and Jesus. That way it not only signifies glory to the Lord but also tells exactly if the Lord is saying some specific thing or doing something specific. This is especially the case in Bible verses where there is so many "he"s that you don't know whether it comes from the Lord or some other guy.

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That is not a flaw. Capitalising pronouns was a Victorian innovation. It is not always sure who the pronoun relates to. The NKJV incorrectly capitalises "He" in 2 Thessolonians 2:7 That is an interpretation and a false one at that.

robycop3 said:

My point is, GOD does NOT favor any one English translation over all others. (Nor any one translation among many in any other language, either.)

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Oh! So you know the mind of God now?

Modern versions cannot agree on which verses to include and which to exclude. Some leave out one, and some leave out others.

David Kent said:

Oh! So you know the mind of God now?

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It is my observation that there are a whole whack of people on CF that know the mind of God. It is puzzling that they don't agree.

Strong in Him said:

I believe God's hand has been on ALL translations, and he has been with the Godly men and women who have made them.

As said before, what you have posted is cool but it is not evidence that the KJV alone is the only inspired translation of Scripture. All that chart does is to show that the verses etc have been numbered and arranged in a certain way. It says nothing about accuracy in translation or the documents that were available at the time.

I know there are at least 2 inaccuracies in the KJV; in one place in uses the word "Easter" when the early church did not know or use the word; it should have been Pascha. In another place it uses the name Jesus when, in the context, it clearly should have been "Joshua".
The KJV is not perfect - I don't think any translation is. And people certainly had God's word available to them before it came along.

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Read the " sinaiticus fraud" by Cooper on amazon. I thought it was a conspiracy theory at first. But it ended up being a REAL vatican conspiracy with a paper trail to the jesuits. Very very disturbing what powerful corporations can do. READ IT

createdtoworship said:

Read the " sinaiticus fraud" by Cooper on amazon. I thought it was a conspiracy theory at first. But it ended up being a REAL vatican conspiracy with a paper trail to the jesuits. Very very disturbing what powerful corporations can do. READ IT

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Oh the Jesuits again! or maybe it is Obama, or George Soros, or the Illuminati, or the Elders of Zion, or the Masons or the Pharisees. Can't we just give these long discredited conspiracy theories a rest?

Shrewd Manager said:

The comparison was made solely on the basis of untrustworthy names, miraculous finds and authentication issues. Timeo timeo et dona ferentes.

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Timeo timeo et dona fermentes. Shrewd Manager are you trying to latinise me? But yes I do think wise words spoken from Virgil. In that we should never receive gifts from our enemies especially in times of war. Though the goddess Athena is most unhappy and does say ( Den Christougenna elliniki salata gia simera sas) : )

David Kent said:

The scripture uses turtledove when it means it, pigeon when it means pigeon see Luke 2:24 I have no doubt when it says Turtle it means Turtle.

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Gotta wonder how many turtles have significant voices.

createdtoworship said:

I believe it's still there, my original post I think it's #2 or #4 at the beginning of the thread, feel free to read it and reply. It has an image on it.

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I did; I said that that image, although cool, is not evidence.
It says nothing about accuracy, documents used, faithfulness to original languages and manuscripts etc.

createdtoworship said:

Read the " sinaiticus fraud" by Cooper on amazon. I thought it was a conspiracy theory at first. But it ended up being a REAL vatican conspiracy with a paper trail to the jesuits. Very very disturbing what powerful corporations can do. READ IT

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I don't want, and haven't got time, to read it.

If you, and others, like/love the KJV, find it helpful for your faith and are growing closer to God because you read it often; great. Carry on using it.
But please don't claim that it is the only Bible that will do this and that there are Bibles which have helped, taught and inspired many but which God sees as corrupt.
The implication is that those Christians who read them are 2nd class Christians, not correct in their faith and some, not necessarily you, might say they are not even saved.

Besides all that, if you are saying that all modern Bibles have been produced from corrupt manuscripts, you should at least have evidence to back that claim - not just "well someone else said so in a book."

Kate30 said:

Timeo timeo et dona fermentes. Shrewd Manager are you trying to latinise me?

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That's timeo Danaos et dona ferentes, for the record Kate. Conjugate the verb!

Kate30 said:

But yes I do think wise words spoken from Virgil. In that we should never receive gifts from our enemies especially in times of war.

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Recalls the fate of Sisera at the hands of Jael in Judges 4:19-21, the milk, tent peg and hammer routine.

Kate30 said:

Though the goddess Athena is most unhappy and does say ( Den Christougenna elliniki salata gia simera sas) : )

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Oh no, looks like my Greek salad days are done. Last time I spend hard-earned drachma in the consulting rooms of that so-called Delphic Oracle. Happy Xmas just the same Kate.

JackRT said:

Oh the Jesuits again! or maybe it is Obama, or George Soros, or the Illuminati, or the Elders of Zion, or the Masons or the Pharisees. Can't we just give these long discredited conspiracy theories a rest?

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I am trying to help you sir. If I was using a counterfeiT I would want to know personally speaking. I would not use logical fallacies every time someone spoke of it. Mocking it is not the honest way to approach this issue. Like I said when I first started reading the book I assumed to be underwhelmed, like it was some sort off conspiracy theory. But the sheer volume of evidence mounted for the fraud of the sinaiticus, needs to be addressed. I can post the review once again with about ten evidences. But it's already on here.

robycop3 said:

No; he ceased replying on the previous thread, which is now closed. I don't even know if he's still on this site.

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He started a thread in this subforum yesterday.

createdtoworship said:

I am trying to help you sir. If I was using a counterfeiT I would want to know personally speaking.

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So what effect do these "counterfeit" Bibles have on us?
Can God still speak through them? Are we still saved? Blessed? Filled with the Spirit? Do we still have every spiritual blessing in Christ? Are we still children of God?

And that's what's important; meeting God through Scripture - growing in faith and love.
The average Christian, I suspect, cares little about the documents used to translate the various versions, of whether the KJV contains a few extra words, or punctuation marks - they want to read, learn, study and meet God in Scripture.
As for non Christians - they just need to hear the Good News. They will not be edified by Christians arguing over which version of the Good News is best.

Strong in Him said:

So what effect do these "counterfeit" Bibles have on us?
Can God still speak through them? Are we still saved? Blessed? Filled with the Spirit? Do we still have every spiritual blessing in Christ? Are we still children of God?

And that's what's important; meeting God through Scripture - growing in faith and love.
The average Christian, I suspect, cares little about the documents used to translate the various versions, of whether the KJV contains a few extra words, or punctuation marks - they want to read, learn, study and meet God in Scripture.
As for non Christians - they just need to hear the Good News. They will not be edified by Christians arguing over which version of the Good News is best.

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I believe that people can be genuinely be saved or have a real faith in Christ but have some theological error about him. For example a Jehovah's witness does not believe in the trinity, but if they repent and believe in Jesus are they still saved? yes they would be. If they are truly believing in the same Christ. If for some reason they believe Jesus is an angel a created being and don't understand the atonement fully, then it would not be the full gospel, but if they are not that indoctrinated in it, they can still be saved. Same with a catholic that believes in the seven sacraments of the catholic catechism. Can they be saved, even though salvation by grace and faith is much different than commanding, seven sacraments upon a church to be saved? Yes they can be saved, it just depends on each situation. What they believe about Jesus and the atonement. So my point is this....God can use christian heresy for His glory. But that does not mean that as a church we should not fight error. So to answer your question, yes God can and does use any translation in any language of any manuscripts simply because those words by and large contain the word of God even if diluted. So yes God can be glorified in newer translations. In fact I used to be so against the NIV that I would cringe when anyone read from it. But I have lightened up over the years. I even read a paraphrase to my son during our family bible study. I use the living Bible and the message. It's good stuff for children. As they get older you can move to the new living translation which is a bit more accurate. Or the action Bible. But ultimately I desire all my children to know the manuscript history behind their Bible. I won't talk about the fraud yet. As it would damage their innocence. But as they graduate high school I think I will give them all the information I have for the logical case that the sinaiticus and vaticanus were forged.

Here is the wonderful book again followed by it's most helpful positive review:

https://www.amazon.com/Forging-Codex-Sinaiticus-Bill-Cooper-ebook/dp/B01E1SUPRO

"This is a much needed book about how the world was duped into believing that one of the precious "ancient" manuscripts that was adored by Brooke Westcott, Fenton Hort, Eugene Nida, and Bruce Metzger is actually a 19th century forgery. Codex Sinaiticus is a Greek version of parts of the Old Testament (basically the Septuagint, which is corrupt in and by itself), parts of the New Testament (again corrupted), and parts of the Apocrypha (clearly not Scripture). Dr. Cooper does a marvelous job proving that the Codex Sinaiticus was artificially aged to make it look like it originated in the 4th century A.D. and that it really originated in the 19th century. There is much to this story, so I'll just highlight a few points here.
1. The book shows why Constantin Tischendorf (the man who "discovered" the Codex) was not trustworthy (the author explains many reasons why).
2. It explains how Roman Catholic Pope Gregory XVI left his fingerprints on the fraud and how untrustworthy Gregory was.
3. It digs into how the Roman Catholic Jesuits had their fingerprints ALL OVER this forgery/fraud and that they (and the Vatican) have a long history of being in the fraud business.
4. Cooper shows that two of the books within the Codex were written in modern Greek, while the rest of the books were in Koine Greek and yet one version of Greek follows the other version of Greek ON THE SAME PAGE inside the Codex.
5. He explains with meticulous detail how the parchment could not POSSIBLY be as old as claimed.
6. He demonstrates beyond doubt how one or more persons attempted to artificially age the Codex.
7. Cooper shows how it is impossible for several "wormholes" to be square (though it is claimed that they are wormholes) and how "wormholes" appear in single pages over and over again without going into adjacent pages.
8. He demonstrates how stains are inconsistent on pages, never having leaked over or through to another page
9. He brings forth the testimony of the man who claimed to have written the entire Codex in the 1800s and the proofs the man himself offered up that he had written it, including codes that he left on certain pages of the Codex.
10. He shows how Fenton Hort was involved in trying to cover up the deceit (or maybe he really believed it)

There are photos of the Codex in question to back up the author's claims (and the Codex is now available on the internet for the whole world to see, so the reader can check the author for himself). There is much, much more. Any Christian who believes that the NIV, ESV, NASB, New World or almost all of the other modern versions is a honest, true, trustworthy Bible - think again. Read this book and get yourself a real Bible - the Textus Receptus and Masoretic Text or get yourself a really good translation - the King James Authorized Bible which is based on these good Greek and Hebrews texts.

Jipsah said:

Gotta wonder how many turtles have significant voices.

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Ever heard what a turtle sounds like while mating? It's pretty significantly hilarious.

-CryptoLutheran