The KJVO myth...

[Bob_1000]

I don't think the verse is a figure of speech. Paul is trying to persuade them not to be taken in by other Gospels and, for those who may have been taken in, he is trying to steer them back to the truth.
Paul could not FORM Christ in them; he was not the Holy Spirit. He could work hard to persuade them of the truth and pray hard for them, but it is the Spirit who convicts and who gives new hope and new life.

The fact that you continually ignore all the other Scriptures I have given you suggests that you are ignoring Scriptural teaching on this and just clinging to one verse which, you claim, proves your point.

I'm trying to stick with the easiest verse that shows the new man is FORMED in the believer which is exactly what Paul is saying It's like the words that Paul said are meaningless to you, it's like you're saying what Paul really meant to say was "I'm trying to persuade (not birth) the Galatians not be taken in by other gospels (not form Christ in them."

The only reason you disregard Paul's words is because you don't understand the 2nd birth and you never will as long as you keep ignoring what the bible says about it. You can't get any plainer or simpler than what Paul presents in Galatians.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm trying to stick with the easiest verse that shows the new man is FORMED in the believer

Formed by the Holy Spirit, NOT another human being.
We become new creations when we are in Christ but sanctification is a lifelong process. The Spirit IS changing into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Perfection doesn't happen all at once, so in a sense, we are being formed, or moulded, into new people. But by God; not man.

The only reason you disregard Paul's words is because you don't understand the 2nd birth and you never will as long as you keep ignoring what the bible says about it.

So why are you ignoring what the NT says about new life being given by the Spirit and GOD given us birth, James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:3?

You can't get any plainer or simpler than what Paul presents in Galatians.

So what's your answer to all the Scriptures I gave you which say that the Spirit gives new birth and new life? Is Paul contradicting himself and the other NT writers?

 

[Bob_1000]

Formed by the Holy Spirit, NOT another human being.
We become new creations when we are in Christ but sanctification is a lifelong process. The Spirit IS changing into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Perfection doesn't happen all at once, so in a sense, we are being formed, or moulded, into new people. But by God; not man.


So why are you ignoring what the NT says about new life being given by the Spirit and GOD given us birth, James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:3?



So what's your answer to all the Scriptures I gave you which say that the Spirit gives new birth and new life? Is Paul contradicting himself and the other NT writers?

I have a lot going on with work right now so I'm gonna be slower at responding. My answer to all the other scripture you gave me is they don't say anything any different than Galatians. So Let's go over each starting with James 1:18.

Jas 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

What is the method of the 2nd birth? Did God supernaturally put a new creation in us or does the new creation come by God working in us as we READ the word of God? I say the latter, in other words we are born again by the incorruptible words of the bible which agrees with 1 Peter 1:23.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jas 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

What is the method of the 2nd birth? Did God supernaturally put a new creation in us or does the new creation come by God working in us as we READ the word of God?

I am saying that God the Holy Spirit brings us to new birth, makes us new creations and changes us into Jesus' image and likeness. It sounded to me as though you were saying that receiving new life had to be worked at - and the example you gave was Paul who apparently was birthing Christ in the Galatians. That was what I was objecting to - that mortal, sinful humans can work to form Christ in someone else. They/we can't. We can pray that God will work in someone, and teach and preach Scripture, as Paul did. But we can't form new creations.

If you are now saying that the new creation comes by GOD working in us - I agree; I always have done

 

[Bob_1000]

I am saying that God the Holy Spirit brings us to new birth, makes us new creations and changes us into Jesus' image and likeness. It sounded to me as though you were saying that receiving new life had to be worked at - and the example you gave was Paul who apparently was birthing Christ in the Galatians. That was what I was objecting to - that mortal, sinful humans can work to form Christ in someone else. They/we can't. We can pray that God will work in someone, and teach and preach Scripture, as Paul did. But we can't form new creations.

If you are now saying that the new creation comes by GOD working in us - I agree; I always have done

Work has nothing to do with it. Travailing is a berthing term and it's there for a reason. Paul was giving them the word of God so that Christ could be formed in them. That's the whole point I've been trying to make... we are born again, the spirit man or Christ in us is formed by the words of the incorruptible bible.

Paul is using berthing terms because he's trying to get us to see that he is Jerusalem above, the mother of us all. Paul was doing the same thing Jesus was doing here:

Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

 

[Strong in Him]

Work has nothing to do with it.

Agreed.
Except you said:

The spiritual man, or Christ in us, is something that comes later. It has to be worked for.

Which, as I said, sounded like you believe that we have to work to have Christ formed in us - and Paul was working so that Christ could be formed in the Galatians.

Paul was giving them the word of God so that Christ could be formed in them. That's the whole point I've been trying to make... we are born again, the spirit man or Christ in us is formed by the words of the incorruptible bible.

And like I showed you, we are born again through the Holy Spirit.
Besides, you have been arguing that the "incorruptible Bible" is the KJV - and Paul certainly did not have, use or give them the KJV. He had the Gospel which was revealed to him by the pure, spotless Word of God; Jesus. The same Gospel that Jesus' disciples preached; the Gospel that was causing people to hear of their sin, repent, confess Jesus as Saviour and Lord, be born again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel had been around for centuries before the KJV was even thought of.

 

[Bob_1000]

Agreed.
Except you said:


Which, as I said, sounded like you believe that we have to work to have Christ formed in us - and Paul was working so that Christ could be formed in the Galatians.



And like I showed you, we are born again through the Holy Spirit.
Besides, you have been arguing that the "incorruptible Bible" is the KJV - and Paul certainly did not have, use or give them the KJV. He had the Gospel which was revealed to him by the pure, spotless Word of God; Jesus. The same Gospel that Jesus' disciples preached; the Gospel that was causing people to hear of their sin, repent, confess Jesus as Saviour and Lord, be born again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel had been around for centuries before the KJV was even thought of.

So what part does the word of God play in the 2nd birth in your opinion?

 

[Strong in Him]

So what part does the word of God play in the 2nd birth in your opinion?

I am not going to give you my opinion; I will quote what Scripture says.

Scripture says that a person will be saved by calling on the name of the Lord, Romans 10:13 and asks how someone can call on his name unless they have believed in him, and how can they believe if the Gospel has not been preached to them, Romans 10:14. The Apostles preached the Gospel that they had heard from Jesus - they heard him teach it before he died and he spent a further 40 days teaching them after the resurrection, Acts of the Apostles 1:3. They didn't have a NT. They quoted from their Scriptures, i.e the OT, and passed on oral teaching.
When the apostles realised that Jesus would probably not return within their lifetime, they wrote accounts of his life and teachings; everything they had heard him say about the Holy Spirit, new life, being born again etc, together with practical instruction and testimony about putting this into practice in your life.
Everything that we know about salvation, the cross, forgiveness, the Holy Spirit and so on comes from the written word of God; the Bible. People read God's word for themselves, or hear, it preached, learn that they have sinned against God, learn of his mercy and love and everything that he did to make forgiveness and salvation possible.

It is the Spirit who inspired the word to be written down and the Spirit who applies it to a person's heart, causing them to call upon the name of the Lord, declare that God raised him from the dead, Romans 10:9 and ask to be saved. The Gospel, or word of God, informs someone that new life is available for all - it is the Spirit who applies that word to their hearts, draws them to Jesus and makes new life possible.

The word, whether written or preached, is vital for proclaiming the Good News - but not everyone will respond to that word. It is the Spirit who gives new life.
When I read a parable teaching many times, then I read it again and it suddenly comes to life, makes sense and changes me - that is the work of the Spirit. Many people sit in churches hearing parts of the Bible being read and it means nothing to them. If one day it all makes sense and they respond; that is the Spirit at work.

 

[Bob_1000]

I am not going to give you my opinion; I will quote what Scripture says.

Scripture says that a person will be saved by calling on the name of the Lord, Romans 10:13 and asks how someone can call on his name unless they have believed in him, and how can they believe if the Gospel has not been preached to them, Romans 10:14. The Apostles preached the Gospel that they had heard from Jesus - they heard him teach it before he died and he spent a further 40 days teaching them after the resurrection, Acts of the Apostles 1:3. They didn't have a NT. They quoted from their Scriptures, i.e the OT, and passed on oral teaching.
When the apostles realised that Jesus would probably not return within their lifetime, they wrote accounts of his life and teachings; everything they had heard him say about the Holy Spirit, new life, being born again etc, together with practical instruction and testimony about putting this into practice in your life.
Everything that we know about salvation, the cross, forgiveness, the Holy Spirit and so on comes from the written word of God; the Bible. People read God's word for themselves, or hear, it preached, learn that they have sinned against God, learn of his mercy and love and everything that he did to make forgiveness and salvation possible.

It is the Spirit who inspired the word to be written down and the Spirit who applies it to a person's heart, causing them to call upon the name of the Lord, declare that God raised him from the dead, Romans 10:9 and ask to be saved. The Gospel, or word of God, informs someone that new life is available for all - it is the Spirit who applies that word to their hearts, draws them to Jesus and makes new life possible.

The word, whether written or preached, is vital for proclaiming the Good News - but not everyone will respond to that word. It is the Spirit who gives new life.
When I read a parable teaching many times, then I read it again and it suddenly comes to life, makes sense and changes me - that is the work of the Spirit. Many people sit in churches hearing parts of the Bible being read and it means nothing to them. If one day it all makes sense and they respond; that is the Spirit at work.

Do you think Old Testament believers in Jesus were born again or was that only available after Christ?

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you think Old Testament believers in Jesus were born again or was that only available after Christ?

The Old Testament believers didn't know about Jesus.
They believed in God, they had his word, his laws, his covenant and sometimes, were filled with his Holy Spirit.
When Samuel told Saul he was going to be king, Saul was filled with the Spirit and prophesied. Other prophets also received God's word. People had visits from angels, occasionally had visions and so on.
They repented if they sinned and were forgiven - e.g David.
But they didn't know Christ and were not born again.

 

[Bob_1000]

The Old Testament believers didn't know about Jesus.
They believed in God, they had his word, his laws, his covenant and sometimes, were filled with his Holy Spirit.
When Samuel told Saul he was going to be king, Saul was filled with the Spirit and prophesied. Other prophets also received God's word. People had visits from angels, occasionally had visions and so on.
They repented if they sinned and were forgiven - e.g David.
But they didn't know Christ and were not born again.

I don't know how to respond to this. The church is all over the Old Testament, the spirit of Christ was in the OT believers testifying in them about grace and all the things that would happen to Christ.... and this should be a dead give away as to what "the Spirit of Christ" literally is. It wasn't a "ghost" inhabiting their bodies, it was literally the INCORRUPTIBLE word of God TESTIFYING in them... this is the SAME Christ that's in us.

Have you read the verses below in a KING JAMES bible?

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't know how to respond to this. The church is all over the Old Testament, the spirit of Christ was in the OT believers testifying in them about grace and all the things that would happen to Christ.... and this should be a dead give away as to what "the Spirit of Christ" literally is. It wasn't a "ghost" inhabiting their bodies, it was literally the INCORRUPTIBLE word of God TESTIFYING in them... this is the SAME Christ that's in us.

Have you read the verses below in a KING JAMES bible?

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I believe OT saints were born again spiritually. I created a thread on this a long while back.

Old Testament saints were born again.

But I need to update it in regards to OT saints having the Spirit, though. I now believe only kings, and prophets in the OT had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not every OT saint. If you were to carefully read 1 Peter 1:10 it refers to the prophets in how they had the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11).

For Moses stated this:

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:29).

In other words, Moses wished that all the LORD’S people were prophets so that He would put His Spirit upon them.

 

[Bob_1000]

I believe OT saints were born again spiritually. I created a thread on this a long while back.

Old Testament saints were born again.

But I need to update it in regards to OT saints having the Spirit, though. I now believe only kings, and prophets in the OT had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not every OT saint. If you were to carefully read 1 Peter 1:10 it refers to the prophets in how they had the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11).

For Moses stated this:

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:29).

In other words, Moses wished that all the LORD’S people were prophets so that He would put His Spirit upon them.

The spirit of Christ is the word of God. It was the word of God that was testifying in them about Christ coming.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't know how to respond to this. The church is all over the Old Testament, the spirit of Christ was in the OT believers testifying in them about grace and all the things that would happen to Christ....

The Holy Spirit was in the OT certainly - I said that.
Prophets prophesied and brought God's word to people - some of which looked ahead to Jesus' birth, ministry, life, death etc on earth. They prophesied by the Holy Spirit.
We don't know if they knew if what they were saying was a prophesy about the Messiah - a lot of prophecy was immediate but also had a future significance. So for example, when Isaiah said "the virgin will conceive and bear a child", that prophecy could have been referring to an event at that time - which would have been fulfilled 9 months after it was given - AND a Messianic prophesy, to be fulfilled later on. Isaiah may have not known he was prophesying about Jesus, the Messiah. But even if he had, neither he, nor the others, knew, or met, Christ at the time. That was my point.
There is a tradition which says that after Jesus died he went and preached to all those from OT times who had died before his coming and therefore had not known him. But the point that I was making was that Moses, David, Isaiah and so on died before Jesus was born. Therefore they didn't meet him.

Have you read the verses below in a KING JAMES bible?

I don't read the King James Bible.
I have read those verses though.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The spirit of Christ is the word of God. It was the word of God that was testifying in them about Christ coming.

So you believe 1 Peter 1:10 is in reference to Jesus living inside the OT prophets testifying?

But the KJB capitalizes the word “Spirit” signifying it the Holy Spirit. Granted, I am not discounting that Jesus did not live inside of OT believers. I do believe that Jesus had to have lived in the hearts of all believers in the Old Testament in order to be saved. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). I believe the Holy Spirit was only given to prophets and kings in the OT. But every OT saint had Jesus living inside of them and they were born again spiritually just as NT saints are. It’s just that not all OT saints had the Holy Spirit indwelling them. Now, the Spirit may have came upon them, but I don’t believe the Spirit indwelled all OT saints. That is a unique thing of the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:26) (Jeremiah 31). I believe the indwelling of the Spirit (which is for all faithful believers in the New Testament) helps for God to write His laws upon their heart under the New Covenant.

 

[Strong in Him]

The spirit of Christ is the word of God. It was the word of God that was testifying in them about Christ coming.

Jesus is THE Word, John 1:1-2, John 1:14.

He was conceived by the Holy Spirit - the same Holy Spirit who was in the OT prophets as they prophesied and foretold his coming.
The Holy Spirit is also sometimes referred to as the Spirit of Jesus, Acts of the Apostles 16:7. God is Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the Father, Son and Spirit are all divine and are all one.

Jesus was born on earth as a human being; he was Christ; the anointed One from God, fully God and fully human, the Word become flesh, John 1:14.
He was not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bob_1000]

The Holy Spirit was in the OT certainly - I said that.
Prophets prophesied and brought God's word to people - some of which looked ahead to Jesus' birth, ministry, life, death etc on earth. They prophesied by the Holy Spirit.
We don't know if they knew if what they were saying was a prophesy about the Messiah - a lot of prophecy was immediate but also had a future significance. So for example, when Isaiah said "the virgin will conceive and bear a child", that prophecy could have been referring to an event at that time - which would have been fulfilled 9 months after it was given - AND a Messianic prophesy, to be fulfilled later on. Isaiah may have not known he was prophesying about Jesus, the Messiah. But even if he had, neither he, nor the others, knew, or met, Christ at the time. That was my point.
There is a tradition which says that after Jesus died he went and preached to all those from OT times who had died before his coming and therefore had not known him. But the point that I was making was that Moses, David, Isaiah and so on died before Jesus was born. Therefore they didn't meet him.



I don't read the King James Bible.
I have read those verses though.

My point is that he Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament Christians, they were born again, they experienced the 2nd birth, the spiritual birth, the birth of Christ in them.

Christ was formed in them just like it has been in us, through the words of scripture. IT (the word of God) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Bob_1000]

So you believe 1 Peter 1:10 is in reference to Jesus living inside the OT prophets testifying?

But the KJB capitalizes the word “Spirit” signifying it the Holy Spirit. Granted, I am not discounting that Jesus did not live inside of OT believers. I do believe that Jesus had to have lived in the hearts of all believers in the Old Testament in order to be saved. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). I believe the Holy Spirit was only given to prophets and kings in the OT. But every OT saint had Jesus living inside of them and they were born again spiritually just as NT saints are. It’s just that not all OT saints had the Holy Spirit indwelling them. Now, the Spirit may have came upon them, but I don’t believe the Spirit indwelled all OT saints. That is a unique thing of the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:26) (Jeremiah 31). I believe the indwelling of the Spirit (which is for all faithful believers in the New Testament) helps for God to write His laws upon their heart under the New Covenant.

I believe 1Pe 1:11 is the scripture for 3 reasons. One, the scriptures do testify of the sufferings of Christ and two, the KJV calls the Spirit of Christ an "IT" and three, I can almost guarantee you that every other translation has "he" in that verse.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe 1Pe 1:11 is the scripture for 3 reasons. One, the scriptures do testify of the sufferings of Christ and two, the KJV calls the Spirit of Christ an "IT" and three, I can almost guarantee you that every other translation has "he" in that verse.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I think that is faulty reasoning, friend. Check out this KJB apologetic article here:

https://brandplucked.webs.com/thespirititself.htm

 

[Bob_1000]

So you believe 1 Peter 1:10 is in reference to Jesus living inside the OT prophets testifying?

But the KJB capitalizes the word “Spirit” signifying it the Holy Spirit. Granted, I am not discounting that Jesus did not live inside of OT believers. I do believe that Jesus had to have lived in the hearts of all believers in the Old Testament in order to be saved. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). I believe the Holy Spirit was only given to prophets and kings in the OT. But every OT saint had Jesus living inside of them and they were born again spiritually just as NT saints are. It’s just that not all OT saints had the Holy Spirit indwelling them. Now, the Spirit may have came upon them, but I don’t believe the Spirit indwelled all OT saints. That is a unique thing of the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:26) (Jeremiah 31). I believe the indwelling of the Spirit (which is for all faithful believers in the New Testament) helps for God to write His laws upon their heart under the New Covenant.

I forgot to add this to the last post I made to you. The Christ in them is the EXACT same Christ that is in us. It is the Christ that must be FORMED in us by the incorruptible word of God.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.