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Strong in Him

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I could repeat the commentary material or you could go back and read it again; either way you'd get the answer to your question. Please, go back and read it if you need to.
I don't need to; you've given me my answer.

I asked what this verse means and how is it relevant for me today, considering that it is through Jesus, not Peter, that people enter the kingdom.
You replied saying that the Pope, Peter's successor, has the keys.
I repeated the question, showing, with Scripture, how Jesus gives eternal life and how those who are born again enter the kingdom.
You replied that you were not going to comment on my theological speculation, and that "whatever the keys are, they were given to Peter."
Further repeats of the question led to the reply, "read this Catholic commentary".

So it seems that you cannot explain what the keys of the kingdom are. Or how St Peter has a role in allowing people into the kingdom, when it is quite clear through Scripture that Jesus gives eternal life and is the way to the Father. Peter said that himself - in his sermons and letters, he pointed people to Jesus, not to himself.
And you cannot explain how it might be important for me/what it means to me that Peter has the keys to the kingdom - when I am already in the kingdom and did not get there through St Peter.

So your answer seems to be; "I don't know; just read, and accept, this Catholic literature."
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So your answer seems to be
My answer, my opinion, these are irrelevant matters; what matters is what the passage teaches not what we opine about its teaching.
 
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Strong in Him

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My answer, my opinion, there are irrelevant matters; what matters is what the passage teaches not what we opine about its teaching.
It was a simple question about what it means for Peter to have the keys to the kingdom, when Jesus is the door, and the way, and it is he who admits people.
Again, Peter never promoted himself as being the one who decided who was saved or who got to meet with God.
 
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Strong in Him

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That is a fancy of your own. Not a teaching of scripture or of the Catholic Church.
I never said it was.
I said that Peter didn't promote himself as the one who could save, or decide who was saved - quite rightly, because he wasn't.
And as he did not save people, nor cause them to be born again, the decision about their being able to enter the kingdom was not his to make.

Hence my question, "in what sense did he have keys, and what were they?" As you have already said, "whatever the keys were", that is my answer; you don't know.

End of discussion; exit stage left.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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End of discussion; exit stage left.
good choice.

There never was any significant issue in the line of questioning anyway; what does it matter when and where the Lord's promise is fulfilled? It is not as if his promises are worthless unless there's a passage in the scriptures that says "This is the when and where for the fulfilment of the promise."
 
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Strong in Him

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good choice.

There never was any significant issue in the line of questioning anyway; what does it matter when and where the Lord's promise is fulfilled?
I didn't say anything about God's promises, or when they are fulfilled.
I asked you, as the author of a thread about the keys, if you could tell me what those keys are and what it means for me - a non Catholic - that St Peter has them.

As you, yourself, wrote "whatever the keys are", it seems you don't know. So there is no point asking you, or discussing it, further.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I asked you, as the author of a thread about the keys, if you could tell me what those keys are and what it means for me - a non Catholic - that St Peter has them.
For you, the meaning has to be whatever you want it to be; objectively the meaning for you is the same as it is for a Catholic Christian, but subjectively it is whatever you want it to be, including nothing at all.

In Catholic theology, the Keys of Heaven, also called Saint Peter’s keys, refers to the metaphorical keys of the office of Saint Peter, the keys of Heaven, or the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. It is explicitly referenced in the Bible in Matthew 16:19 1. According to Catholic teaching, Jesus promised the keys to heaven to Saint Peter, empowering him to take binding actions. In the Gospel of Matthew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 1. The keys of heaven or keys of Saint Peter are seen as a symbol of papal authority 1.

Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The expression "power of the keys" is derived from Christ's words to St. Peter (in Matthew 16:19). The promise there made finds its explanation in Isaiah 22, in which "the key of the house of David" is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of plenary authority in the Kingdom of Juda. Christ by employing this expression clearly designed to signify his intention to confer on St. Peter the supreme authority over His Church. For a consideration of the text in its dogmatic bearing, see POPE; PRIMACY. In the present article our sole purpose is to give a brief historical account of the meaning attached to the expression by ecclesiastical writers.​

The Fathers​

(1) In the Fathers the references to the promise of Matthew 16:19, are of frequent occurrence. Almost invariably the words of Christ are cited in proof of the Church's power to forgive sins. The application is a natural one, for the promise of the keys is immediately followed by the words: "Whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth", etc. Moreover, the power to confer or to withhold forgiveness might well be viewed as the opening and shutting of the gates of heaven. This interpretation, however, restricts the sense somewhat too narrowly; for the remission of sins is but one of the various ways in which ecclesiastical authority is exercised. We have examples of this use of the term is such passages as August., "De Doctrina Christi", xvii, xviii: "Quid liberatius et misericordius facere potuit. . .nisi ut omnia donaret conversis. . .Has igitur claves dedit Ecclesiae suae ut quae solveret in terra soluta essent in coelo" (How could He [Christ] have shown greater liberality and greater mercy. . .than by granting full forgiveness to those who should turn from their sins. . .He gave these keys to His Church, therefore, that whatever it should remit on earth should be remitted also in heaven) (P.L., XXIV, 25; cf. Hilary, "In Matt.", xvi, P.L., IX, 1010).​
It is comparatively seldom that the Fathers, when speaking of the power of the keys, make any reference to the supremacy of St. Peter. When they deal with that question, they ordinarily appeal not to the gift of the keys but to his office as the rock on which the Church is founded. In their references to the potestas clavium, they are usually intent on vindicating against the Montanist and Novatian heretics the power inherent in the Church to forgive. Thus St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter, but was conferred upon him as representing the Church. The whole Church, he urges, exercises the power of forgiving sins. This could not be had the gift been a personal one (tract. 1 in Joan., n. 12, P.L., XXXV, 1763; Serm. ccxcv, in P.L., XXXVIII, 1349). From these passages certain Protestant controversialists have drawn the curious conclusion that the power to forgive sins belongs not to the priesthood but to the collective body of Christians (see Cheetham in "Dict. Christ. Antiq.", s.v.). There is, of course, no suggestion of this meaning. St. Augustine merely signifies that the power to absolve was to be imparted through St. Peter to members of the Church's hierarchy throughout the world.​
Some few of the Fathers, however, are careful to note that the bestowal of this power upon St. Peter alone, apart from the other Apostles, denoted his primacy among the twelve (Optatus, "De Schism. Don.", vii, 3, in P.L., XI, 1087). Origen dilates at length on this point, but teaches erroneously that the power conferred upon the Twelve in Matthew 18:18, could only be exercised within certain restrictions of place, while that conferred upon St. Peter in Matthew 16:18, was of universal extent (Comm. in Matt., P.G., XIII, 1179).​
(2) Occasionally, though infrequently, Christ's promise is not restricted to signify the power to forgive sins, but is taken in the fuller meaning of the gift of authority over the Church. Thus St. Gregory in his letter to the Emperor Maurice, after quoting Christ's words in Matthew 16:18-19, writes: "Behold he [Peter] received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power of binding and loosing is committed to him, the care of the whole Church and its government is given to him [cura ei totius Ecclesiae et principatus committitur (Epist., lib. V, ep. xx, in P.L., LXXVII, 745)]. St. Maximus in a sermon on the feast of Saints Peter and Paul (P.L., LVII, 403) says that to St. Peter was given the key of power (clavis potentioe), to St. Paul the key of knowledge (clavis scientioe). The idea of a key of knowledge is clearly derived from Christ's words to the Pharisees, Luke 11:52: "You have taken away the key of knowledge." This distinction of the clavis potentioe and clavis scientioe recurs frequently in the medieval writers, though without reference to St. Paul.​
There is more at this link.​
 
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Dan Perez

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For you, the meaning has to be whatever you want it to be; objectively the meaning for you is the same as it is for a Catholic Christian, but subjectively it is whatever you want it to be, including nothing at all.

In Catholic theology, the Keys of Heaven, also called Saint Peter’s keys, refers to the metaphorical keys of the office of Saint Peter, the keys of Heaven, or the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. It is explicitly referenced in the Bible in Matthew 16:19 1. According to Catholic teaching, Jesus promised the keys to heaven to Saint Peter, empowering him to take binding actions. In the Gospel of Matthew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 1. The keys of heaven or keys of Saint Peter are seen as a symbol of papal authority 1.

Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The expression "power of the keys" is derived from Christ's words to St. Peter (in Matthew 16:19). The promise there made finds its explanation in Isaiah 22, in which "the key of the house of David" is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of plenary authority in the Kingdom of Juda. Christ by employing this expression clearly designed to signify his intention to confer on St. Peter the supreme authority over His Church. For a consideration of the text in its dogmatic bearing, see POPE; PRIMACY. In the present article our sole purpose is to give a brief historical account of the meaning attached to the expression by ecclesiastical writers.​

The Fathers​

(1) In the Fathers the references to the promise of Matthew 16:19, are of frequent occurrence. Almost invariably the words of Christ are cited in proof of the Church's power to forgive sins. The application is a natural one, for the promise of the keys is immediately followed by the words: "Whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth", etc. Moreover, the power to confer or to withhold forgiveness might well be viewed as the opening and shutting of the gates of heaven. This interpretation, however, restricts the sense somewhat too narrowly; for the remission of sins is but one of the various ways in which ecclesiastical authority is exercised. We have examples of this use of the term is such passages as August., "De Doctrina Christi", xvii, xviii: "Quid liberatius et misericordius facere potuit. . .nisi ut omnia donaret conversis. . .Has igitur claves dedit Ecclesiae suae ut quae solveret in terra soluta essent in coelo" (How could He [Christ] have shown greater liberality and greater mercy. . .than by granting full forgiveness to those who should turn from their sins. . .He gave these keys to His Church, therefore, that whatever it should remit on earth should be remitted also in heaven) (P.L., XXIV, 25; cf. Hilary, "In Matt.", xvi, P.L., IX, 1010).​
It is comparatively seldom that the Fathers, when speaking of the power of the keys, make any reference to the supremacy of St. Peter. When they deal with that question, they ordinarily appeal not to the gift of the keys but to his office as the rock on which the Church is founded. In their references to the potestas clavium, they are usually intent on vindicating against the Montanist and Novatian heretics the power inherent in the Church to forgive. Thus St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter, but was conferred upon him as representing the Church. The whole Church, he urges, exercises the power of forgiving sins. This could not be had the gift been a personal one (tract. 1 in Joan., n. 12, P.L., XXXV, 1763; Serm. ccxcv, in P.L., XXXVIII, 1349). From these passages certain Protestant controversialists have drawn the curious conclusion that the power to forgive sins belongs not to the priesthood but to the collective body of Christians (see Cheetham in "Dict. Christ. Antiq.", s.v.). There is, of course, no suggestion of this meaning. St. Augustine merely signifies that the power to absolve was to be imparted through St. Peter to members of the Church's hierarchy throughout the world.​
Some few of the Fathers, however, are careful to note that the bestowal of this power upon St. Peter alone, apart from the other Apostles, denoted his primacy among the twelve (Optatus, "De Schism. Don.", vii, 3, in P.L., XI, 1087). Origen dilates at length on this point, but teaches erroneously that the power conferred upon the Twelve in Matthew 18:18, could only be exercised within certain restrictions of place, while that conferred upon St. Peter in Matthew 16:18, was of universal extent (Comm. in Matt., P.G., XIII, 1179).​
(2) Occasionally, though infrequently, Christ's promise is not restricted to signify the power to forgive sins, but is taken in the fuller meaning of the gift of authority over the Church. Thus St. Gregory in his letter to the Emperor Maurice, after quoting Christ's words in Matthew 16:18-19, writes: "Behold he [Peter] received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power of binding and loosing is committed to him, the care of the whole Church and its government is given to him [cura ei totius Ecclesiae et principatus committitur (Epist., lib. V, ep. xx, in P.L., LXXVII, 745)]. St. Maximus in a sermon on the feast of Saints Peter and Paul (P.L., LVII, 403) says that to St. Peter was given the key of power (clavis potentioe), to St. Paul the key of knowledge (clavis scientioe). The idea of a key of knowledge is clearly derived from Christ's words to the Pharisees, Luke 11:52: "You have taken away the key of knowledge." This distinction of the clavis potentioe and clavis scientioe recurs frequently in the medieval writers, though without reference to St. Paul.​
There is more at this link.​
It is clear that that power was only GIVEN to Peter and also that Christ did not then give to another apostle as the OLD COVENANT has been set aside .

Also , in the verse , 19 , there are IS ONE , I WILL GIVE / DIDOMI a verb in the FUTURE TENSE ACTIVE VOICE , and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , and is in the SINGULAR

Then in that same verse there are 2 , in the Greek , SHALL BE / ESONAI a verb in the FUTURE TENSE and also in the INDICATIVE MOOD , also in the SINGULAR .

And since Peter is dead , NO ONE can take his place , especially since Peter is dead , this POWER can only happen during the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM and this also means that in the BODY OF CHRIST there can not be PRIEST , because PRIESTS can ONLY come from as a direct descendant of AARON .

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And since Peter is dead , NO ONE can take his place , especially since Peter is dead , this POWER can only happen during the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM and this also means that in the BODY OF CHRIST there can not be PRIEST , because PRIESTS can ONLY come from as a direct descendant of AARON .
For you, subjectively, the verse means whatever you please it to mean but this is not so for the Faithful in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. For the faithful the verse is about a present reality, transmitted from the Lord himself through Saint Peter and his successors until our day in the current successor Francis, bishop of Rome, and Pope of the Catholic Church.
 
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Dan Perez

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For you, subjectively, the verse means whatever you please it to mean but this is not so for the Faithful in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. For the faithful the verse is about a present reality, transmitted from the Lord himself through Saint Peter and his successors until our day in the current successor Francis, bishop of Rome, and Pope of the Catholic Church.
And Peter was not from the
For you, subjectively, the verse means whatever you please it to mean but this is not so for the Faithful in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. For the faithful the verse is about a present reality, transmitted from the Lord himself through Saint Peter and his successors until our day in the current successor Francis, bishop of Rome, and Pope of the Catholic Church.
For you, subjectively, the verse means whatever you please it to mean but this is not so for the Faithful in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. For the faithful the verse is about a present reality, transmitted from the Lord himself through Saint Peter and his successors until our day in the current successor Francis, bishop of Rome, and Pope of the Catholic Church.
So you do NOT have a verve that PETER was Priest , do you ??

And in Rev 1:6 all male Jews will be kings and priest , NO GENTILES allowed !!

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Dan Perez

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1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed.

priest, (from Greek presbyteros, “elder”), in some Christian churches, an officer or minister who is intermediate between a bishop and a deacon. - Priest | Definition, History, & Facts
And the Greek word for PRIEST is HIEREUS and not an ELDER , like in 1 Peter 5:1 and have NEVER read where Peter performed the office of a PRIEST , PERIOD .

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And the Greek word for PRIEST is HIEREUS and not an ELDER , like in 1 Peter 5:1 and have NEVER read where Peter performed the office of a PRIEST , PERIOD .

dan p
That might be because priest is an English word and not Greek and it does not derive from Heireus. But I already explained that and you just ignored the explanation, so I guess you can wander along the path you prefer even though it has almost nothing to do with the question that I answered.
 
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Dan Perez

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That might be because priest is an English word and not Greek and it does not derive from Heireus. But I already explained that and you just ignored the explanation, so I guess you can wander along the path you prefer even though it has almost nothing to do with the question that I answered.
Is the Greek word for PRIEST / HIEREUS , what say you ?

By the way did Peter EVER preach how a JEW or a GENTILE can be SAVED ?

Or how was Peter saved ?

dan p
 
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ralliann

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And the Greek word for PRIEST is HIEREUS and not an ELDER , like in 1 Peter 5:1 and have NEVER read where Peter performed the office of a PRIEST , PERIOD .

dan p
Really? Well then how were they a royal priesthood or kingdom of priests? Bishops are priests why not also elders? The priesthood of Christ is also a king. While such functions were restricted in the Levitical priesthood, how do you carry that over into the royal priesthood of government.
 
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Dan Perez

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Really? Well then how were they a royal priesthood or kingdom of priests? Bishops are priests why not also elders? The priesthood of Christ is also a king. While such functions were restricted in the Levitical priesthood, how do you carry that over into the royal priesthood of government.
Has anyone read where Peter EVER PERFORMED the duties of a HIGH PRIEST , and since I missed that verse , can you show where that happened , since I missed it ?

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Is the Greek word for PRIEST / HIEREUS , what say you ?
No and yes, No insofar as presbyter became priest in English, and yes insofar as hiereus the priests who served at the altar in Jerusalem are called hiereus in Greek, at least sometimes.
By the way did Peter EVER preach how a JEW or a GENTILE can be SAVED ?

Or how was Peter saved ?
How is this relevant to anything we've discussed, or to the keys of the kingdom given to saint Peter by the Lord Jesus?
 
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Dan Perez

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No and yes, No insofar as presbyter became priest in English, and yes insofar as hiereus the priests who served at the altar in Jerusalem are called hiereus in Greek, at least sometimes.

How is this relevant to anything we've discussed, or to the keys of the kingdom given to saint Peter by the Lord Jesus?
WHY ? Because , priests are not seen in my theology , because the Apostle never says that there are PRIESTS in the B O C , nor can you prove that Peter was was a Priest OR I will show that Peter lived under the OLD COVENANT , or explain how those that lived under the OLD COVENANT were safe or were saved , and would like to know ?

At Peters time , there was HIGH PRIEST and all priests had to be a descendant of the first HIGH PRIEST , Aaron !!

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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At Peters time , there was HIGH PRIEST
In saint Peter's time, Jesus Christ was a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and saint Peter, being a member of the body of Christ, is a priest in the order of Melchizedek; in truth Christians are a nation of priests in Christ. There really isn't much point discussing priesthood when the theology that you're presenting in your posts is so askew of the truth.
 
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