prodromos

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But we don't see that. Who has seen his or her own resurrection from the dead? Who knows when and where that will happen? No, good sir, we do not see the when and where of fulfilment for all God's promises in scripture, we must wait with patience to see some fulfilled.
I didn't say ALL God's promises in Scripture though, did I. I said Jesus promises to His disciples, specifically His sending of the Holy Spirit, what trials they would face and how they would know what to say.
It doesn't say much for your argument if you have to resort to logical fallacies.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
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I didn't say ALL God's promises in Scripture though, did I. I said Jesus promises to His disciples, specifically His sending of the Holy Spirit, what trials they would face and how they would know what to say.
It doesn't say much for your argument if you have to resort to logical fallacies.
It says less for yours that you disregard so many promises made by Jesus to his disciples. Where, for example, do we get the when and where for the Pearl gates of the New Jerusalem? Where do we get the when and where for the resurrection of the dead? Where do we get the when and where for the martyrdom of saint Peter? No, sir, I will not agree to your proposition; we do not get a when and where for all of the Lord's promises to the disciples. Nor need I provide a when and where for the reception of the keys of the kingdom given to saint Peter; it is sufficient to have the promise and to know the reliability of the one who made the promise. There is no need to add to it. No need to point to a biblical passage with a when and where for the promise's fulfilment.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So it's entirely possible that Peter hasn't even received the keys yet?

-CryptoLutheran
It is entirely possible that saint Peter has received them is a better proposition. They were, after all, promised to him by the Lord, Jesus Christ. I put considerable store in the reliability of the Lord.
 
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Strong in Him

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Is it not enough for you to know that Jesus gave the keys to saint Peter?
As St Peter is dead, I'm asking you what this means for us today and how it applies practically. Even in Peter's day, he was not the one who decided who was allowed to be saved and enter the kingdom - so what does it mean?
Is his word insufficient to convince you that saint Peter was given the keys of the kingdom?
Yes, he was given the keys of the kingdom - what did that mean then, and what does that mean for us over 2000 years later?

It sounds as though your answer is "I don't know; just believe it."
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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As St Peter is dead, I'm asking you what this means for us today and how it applies practically. Even in Peter's day, he was not the one who decided who was allowed to be saved and enter the kingdom - so what does it mean?

Yes, he was given the keys of the kingdom - what did that mean then, and what does that mean for us over 2000 years later?

It sounds as though your answer is "I don't know; just believe it."
His successor has the keys today, that successor is Francis, bishop of Rome.
 
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Strong in Him

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His successor has the keys today, that successor is Francis, bishop of Rome.
What does it mean to have the keys of the Kingdom?

Salvation is in, and through, Jesus who gives us eternal life.
The Pope doesn't decide who is saved - any more than Peter did.
The Pope can't prevent people from being born again and entering the kingdom, John 3:3 - any more than Peter could. (Not that Peter would have wanted to.)
I, for one, have a relationship with Jesus. I am in the kingdom; all without the Pope's help.
So what does it mean?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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What does it mean to have the keys of the Kingdom?

Salvation is in, and through, Jesus who gives us eternal life.
The Pope doesn't decide who is saved - any more than Peter did.
The Pope can't prevent people from being born again and entering the kingdom, John 3:3 - any more than Peter could. (Not that Peter would have wanted to.)
I, for one, have a relationship with Jesus. I am in the kingdom; all without the Pope's help.
So what does it mean?
I am not responsible for your theological speculations on salvation, so, I will not answer them. Whatever the keys are they were given to saint Peter.
 
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Strong in Him

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I am not responsible for your theological speculations on salvation, so, I will not answer them. Whatever the keys are they were given to saint Peter.
So you don't know. You have written a thread about the keys of the kingdom, asking for our views and how our denominations "handles the passage" - and you can't say what it means, or even what they keys are?

And why do you talk about my "theological speculation", when I quoted Scripture?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So you don't know. You have written a thread about the keys of the kingdom, asking for our views and how our denominations "handles the passage" - and you can't say what it means, or even what they keys are?

And why do you talk about my "theological speculation", when I quoted Scripture?
Is the passage itself insufficient to know what they are?
Matthew 16:
15 Jesus said to them, And what of you? Who do you say that I am?​
16 Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.✻​
vv. 13-16: Mk. 8.27; Lk. 9.18.
17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee.​
18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it;​
19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.​

Commentary says:
Matthew 16:19​
And I will give to thee the keys, &c. This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church.​
--- And whatsoever thou shalt bind, &c. All the apostles, and their successors, partake also of this power of binding and loosing, but with a due subordination to one head invested with the supreme power. (Witham)​
--- Loose on earth. The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence: the power of which is here granted. (Challoner)​
--- Although Peter and his successors are mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with heavenly power, says St. John Chrysostom nor is the sentence of life and death passed by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is to be considered a divine answer from heaven, and what he decrees, a decree of God himself. He that heareth you, heareth me, &c. The power of binding is exercised, 1st. by refusing to absolve; 2d. by enjoining penance for sins forgiven; 3d. by excommunication, suspension or interdict; 4th. by making rules and laws for the government of the Church; 5th. by determining what is of faith by the judgments and definitions of the Church. (Tirinus)​
--- The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. (Bible de Vence)​
--- Dr. Whitby, a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and the preceding verse: "As a suitable return to thy confession, I say also to thee, that thou art by name Peter, i.e. a rock; and upon thee, who art this rock, I will build my making laws to govern my Church." (Tom. i, p. 143.) Dr. Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same manner. And p. 92, he says: " What is here meant by the keys, is best understand by Isa_22:22, where they signified ruling the whole family or house of the king: and this being by Christ accommodated to the Church, denotes the power of governing it."​
 
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Strong in Him

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Is the passage itself insufficient to know what they are?
Matthew 16:
15 Jesus said to them, And what of you? Who do you say that I am?​
16 Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.✻​
vv. 13-16: Mk. 8.27; Lk. 9.18.
17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee.​
18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it;​
19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.​
You tell me - you're the one who said "whatever the keys are".
Commentary says:
Matthew 16:19​
And I will give to thee the keys, &c. This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church.​
I'm not interested in what some - possibly Catholic - commentary says.
I asked you if you could explain a) what these keys are and b) what does it mean for me today - given that I have confessed Jesus, been born again and am in the kingdom, all without the aid of the Pope?

Having eternal life and being born again means that a person enters the kingdom. St Peter was never responsible for saying whether or not a person could be born again. The Holy Spirit is responsible for that - no one else.
 
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prodromos

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It says less for yours that you disregard so many promises made by Jesus to his disciples. Where, for example, do we get the when and where for the Pearl gates of the New Jerusalem?
That was a vision only seen by John. It wasn't a promise to His disciples.
Where do we get the when and where for the resurrection of the dead?
Which promise Jesus made to the Disciples are you talking about?
Where do we get the when and where for the martyrdom of saint Peter?
This was not a promise to the disciples, and I would hardly describe it as a promise to St Peter, however it is more than likely that John wrote his Gospel after Peter's martyrdom and is confirming for us the manner in which Peter died.
No, sir, I will not agree to your proposition; we do not get a when and where for all of the Lord's promises to the disciples. Nor need I provide a when and where for the reception of the keys of the kingdom given to saint Peter; it is sufficient to have the promise and to know the reliability of the one who made the promise. There is no need to add to it. No need to point to a biblical passage with a when and where for the promise's fulfilment.
It appears as though you would have been better off making no response at all
 
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Strong in Him

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It is a Catholic commentary.
Precisely.
So it is not going to say anything which is contrary to Catholic interpretation, belief and practice.

I was asking you what those words mean for us - me - today; given that it's Jesus, not Peter or the church, who saves a person and admits them to the kingdom?
 
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RileyG

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As St Peter is dead, I'm asking you what this means for us today and how it applies practically. Even in Peter's day, he was not the one who decided who was allowed to be saved and enter the kingdom - so what does it mean?

Yes, he was given the keys of the kingdom - what did that mean then, and what does that mean for us over 2000 years later?

It sounds as though your answer is "I don't know; just believe it."
Bind and loose sins.
 
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RileyG

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Not readily. Its the distillation of my reading over the last 20 years. I'm not a writer, so I haven't kept notes. I'm a voracious reader but I couldn't write an essay to save my life.
Thanks
 
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Strong in Him

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Bind and loose sins.
Sorry but that doesn't really answer my question.

Jesus forgives sins. How does Peter's responsibility for "binding and loosing" sins apply to me today? What does it mean anyway?
James tells us we are to confess our sins to one another. - but there is no suggestion that anyone can withhold forgiveness.
 
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Strong in Him

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They mean what they have always meant; that is what the commentary presented.
Which is?

How does Peter give me the keys to the kingdom - when it is through Jesus that I am born again, reconciled to God, have eternal life and have the way to the Father?
These are all keys to the kingdom of God - especially being born again, without which, no one can enter the kingdom.
Peter was not responsible for me being born again - never was, never will be. And I am sure that he would have not claimed that for himself.
Jesus holds all these keys - plus the key of David, Revelation 3:7. In addition, he is the door through which everyone else enters.

This is not a trick question, I don't mean to sound as though I am having a go, and it is certainly not Catholic bashing. I genuinely want to know how Peter has the keys to the kingdom - though I appreciate that asking a Catholic means that I'll get only the Catholic answer.
I somehow get the impression that this thread is about the identity of the one holding/given the keys - Peter, not all the Apostles - rather than the nature of those keys and how we may enter the kingdom.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Which is?
I could repeat the commentary material or you could go back and read it again; either way you'd get the answer to your question. Please, go back and read it if you need to.
 
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