The "judgment" challenge!!

[apenman]

So, here is the thing, there are many, many Christians who believe that we will be judged on the basis of whether, or not, we believe in the "NAME" of Christ. Now, I believe that the judgment of Christ will be based on whether, or not, we have fulfilled the law of Christ, because those who have, are the ones who did what he said. For instance:

Luke 6:46, "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (NIV)

So, the issue is, did we do what he said, which I say comes down to "love one another", which is what we see in the sheep and the goats. Also, consider this:

Matthew 7:20-23, "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (NIV)

So, it is Christ himself who says we must believe, BUT then he qualifies that by saying that "by their fruit you will recognize them", which is what takes place in the sheep and the goats.

Also, no one who lived before Christ was even born could have believed in the name of Christ, so this standard of judgment cannot, and will not, be applied in the judgment of Christ. Instead, the standard will be doing what he said, and they will be recognized by their fruit.

So, here is the challenge, let's find all the references we can to final judgment and see if there is even one clear case where the standard of judgment is believing in the name of Christ. Now, I am not looking for single verses that say we must believe, I am looking for descriptions of judgment such as the great white throne, the sheep and the goats, etc. There are some descriptions in both the OT & NT, and I would like some help finding them all.

There will be rep hits and blessings for those who take up this challenge.

 

[lovespeace]

The OT talks alot more about repentance and righteous deeds than damnation. The standards of judgement in the OT exist to punish those who do wrong, not those who do right. I will post the verses later, I am in a hurry now.

About the judgement in the NT, I think that if my standards of justice are higher than God's then there is something wrong. How can God be less just than us to damn to eternal hell his creations. Somethings wrong with that logic. This isn't just the classical rhetorical question that we can answer with the standard NT answer, it should provoke us to deep thought about what we are saying other human beings we be subject to.

 

[lovespeace]

I'll quickly list some of the times where God tell people to repent of their evil deeds and then they will be acceptable to him;
To Cain before he murdered Abel
Ninvea from the mouth of Joanah
Hundreds of times to Isreal begging them to repent
Seven letters to the Church in revalations
John 14
Psalms, Malachi, Jerimiah where God does not want animal sacrifices, but good works.

Bottom line is I think God wants our hearts and actions not just our words. He did after all give very specific rules on how to live.

 

[CaDan]

I'll quickly list some of the times where God tell people to repent of their evil deeds and then they will be acceptable to him;
To Cain before he murdered Abel
Ninvea from the mouth of Joanah
Hundreds of times to Isreal begging them to repent
Seven letters to the Church in revalations
John 14
Psalms, Malachi, Jerimiah where God does not want animal sacrifices, but good works.

Bottom line is I think God wants our hearts and actions not just our words. He did after all give very specific rules on how to live.

I think I must disagree with the bolded portion. Rather than give us specific rules on how to live, Jesus gave us principles by which to live.

 

[apenman]

Psalms, Malachi, Jerimiah where God does not want animal sacrifices, but good works.
Bottom line is I think God wants our hearts and actions not just our words. He did after all give very specific rules on how to live.

I do agree with this part, the only rule I see that really matters is "love one another", or "love your neighbour as yourself".

Am still hoping that we can find all the descriptions of judgment and compare them.

 

[CaDan]

So, here is the challenge, let's find all the references we can to final judgment and see if there is even one clear case where the standard of judgment is believing in the name of Christ. Now, I am not looking for single verses that say we must believe, I am looking for descriptions of judgment such as the great white throne, the sheep and the goats, etc. There are some descriptions in both the OT & NT, and I would like some help finding them all.

There will be rep hits and blessings for those who take up this challenge.

Here's the result of a quickie search of the NT:

[bible]Acts 2:21[/bible]
[bible]1 Corinthians 6:11[/bible]

Not much.

 

[praying]

Revelation 20

The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[apenman]

Revelation 20

The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

OK, good! Now, in the great white thrown judgment it says that people were judged according to what they had done. It does not say what they had done means believing in the name of Christ, or fulfilling the law of Christ, as is the case in the sheep and the goats. My feeling is that the sheep and goats is what takes place in the great white thrown judgment. So, here is the sheep and the goats:

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

 

[lovespeace]

If you look at Judaism this is what they believe, that one is judged according to the good or evil one has done. They support this using the same verses we have in out OT.

 

[apenman]

If you look at Judaism this is what they believe, that one is judged according to the good or evil one has done.

This is what I believe, and those who have done good, fulfilling the law of Christ, are saved.

I'm still waiting to see if anyone comes up with a description of judgment based on whether or not a person "believes" in the name of Christ.

 

[lovespeace]

Perhaps I will be a minority here, but I will write this anyways. I assume that whatever salvation is, it is not so simple to define as we make it. Yes, it fundamentaly changes who we are, where we are going, our standing in frount of God. But it is also not a simple saying of words. Such a fundamental change has to be accompnied with a change in basic character. How could it not be, if we are new creatures? This is what I think Jesus meant when he said that many will say they knew him, when in reality they did not.

Perfect example of this is the parable of the talents. I think all the stewards were meant to represent Christians, and they were judged for their actions.

I am a proponent of once saved always saved myself, but I also think that God cares immensely about our actions. That certainly is what he desired from the Isreali's, and we are in extension held to the same standards.

A description of the judgement, I do not know, this is because we really do not know much about what awaits us in heaven. I wonder if we are deliberatly not told, so we are obedient because it is right and good, and not doing it for reward. God always rewards good, but we cannot conceive of how it shall be given.

 

[apenman]

Such a fundamental change has to be accompnied with a change in basic character.

If a change in character is required, then I agree, however, I don't agree that it is always required.

 

[goodnews]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Phil 2:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Fathe

[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost[/font]

 

[apenman]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Phil 2:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Fathe

[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost[/font]

These are not actual descriptions of judgment.

 

[skilltroks]

ahh..I didn't read the whole post..so I messed up. sorry.

 

[praying]

I am a proponent of once saved always saved myself, but I also think that God cares immensely about our actions.

I can't quite wrap myself around the idea that if I confess one day of my belief in Christ and turn the next to living an unChrist like life that he will say to me, YOU are welcome my daughter. I am inclined to believe I would be among the "I never knew you" crowd. I don't think we can have real faith without works since as you say " it fundamentaly changes who we are, where we are going, our standing in frount of God.". I think we must live our faith to be saved. I am actually inclined to believe that living it is more important than confessing it but I also know that once you are wrapped in it it comes quite naturally and easy to confess it.



[bible]Psalms 7:8[/bible]

[bible]Psalms 26[/bible]

 

[lovespeace]

I agree with the above poster.

I never liked the verse saying "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" but in a way why not? God is holy and there is no way he would excuse his children from pursuing holiness.

CS Lewis writes well on this topic in his book Mere Christianity and the Screwtape Letters.

 

[apenman]

I can't quite wrap myself around the idea that if I confess one day of my belief in Christ and turn the next to living an unChrist like life that he will say to me, YOU are welcome my daughter. I am inclined to believe I would be among the "I never knew you" crowd. I don't think we can have real faith without works since as you say " it fundamentaly changes who we are, where we are going, our standing in frount of God.". I think we must live our faith to be saved. I am actually inclined to believe that living it is more important than confessing it but I also know that once you are wrapped in it it comes quite naturally and easy to confess it.

Yes, I agree. I don't believe in the once saved, always saved point of view. There are also those who believe that Christians won't be judged, instead, they believe, they're saved and that's it. Yet it states:

1 Peter 4:17, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God;" (NIV)

So, judgment begins with family of God. Notice in the sheep and the goats that Christ addresses the sheep first.

Also:

1 Peter 1:17, "Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear." (NIV)

So, God "judges each man's work impartially", Christian and non-Christian.

 

[Tytania86]

Isn't there something about that if you believe in him but don't do the things he says, then you have no part with him? Also faith without works is dead and even the demons believe and they tremble, from James.
What about that you will be judged as you judge? It seems like there are lots of Christians that judge others from some kind of self righteous attitude. Won't they be judged as they judge? There are lots of Christians saying other Christians aren't really Christian and they're going to hell. I can't stand it personally. does that mean those doing that kind of judging are going to hell?

 

[merryheart]

Good thread. Yet another parable that supports your view.

28 But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them two did the will of his father? They say to him, The first. Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.