The issues with Sola Scriptura

[Albion]

The list could be extended, but that was sufficient to answer Harkiz' question, I thought.

 

[Hawkiz]

I'll use "Thursday's" format to answer that, Hawkiz:

The Pope is the head of the Church
All bishops are equal as successors of the Apostles
The Pope is infallible under certain circumstances
There is no Papal Infallibility
Salvation is to be done by immersion
Salvation is usually done by pouring
Women may be ordained to the priesthood
The priesthood is reserved for males only
Divorce and remarriage is forbidden
Up to four marriages are allowed
Purgatory is a place in the afterlife
There is no Purgatory

and so on

Do you have any sources to back these?

I just did a search (Google) and can't find anything like:
'Catholic Churches who don't believe the Pope is the head of the church', or
'There is no papal infallibility to certain Catholic churches', or
'Salvation must be done by immersion, Catholic' (there is in fact no specific mode that is required), or
'Catholic Churches that ordain women', or
'Up to 4 marriages allowed, Catholic',

Perhaps you can help by providing a proof source where these are shown to be held by the Catholic Church? I will accept an answer that includes RCC, or any of the 26 eastern rites that are in union with Rome...if they are not within those defined terms, then they are not captitol C Catholic, and should not be considered as such. (In a similar way that I should not include any and all 'Anglican' Churches to be under the same umbrella simply because they have chosen to high jack the name 'Anglican' right?)

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Albion]

Do you have any sources to back these?

Of course.

I just did a search (Google) and can't find anything like:
'Catholic Churches who don't believe the Pope is the head of the church'

Did you look up Eastern Orthodoxy, Church of the East, Armenian Apostolic Church, Polish National Catholic Church, or Old Catholic Churches?

 

[Thursday]

Do you have any sources to back these?

I just did a search (Google) and can't find anything like:
'Catholic Churches who don't believe the Pope is the head of the church', or
'There is no papal infallibility to certain Catholic churches', or
'Salvation must be done by immersion, Catholic' (there is in fact no specific mode that is required), or
'Catholic Churches that ordain women', or
'Up to 4 marriages allowed, Catholic',

Perhaps you can help by providing a proof source where these are shown to be held by the Catholic Church? I will accept an answer that includes RCC, or any of the 26 eastern rites that are in union with Rome...if they are not within those defined terms, then they are not captitol C Catholic, and should not be considered as such. (In a similar way that I should not include any and all 'Anglican' Churches to be under the same umbrella simply because they have chosen to high jack the name 'Anglican' right?)

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

I think you are wasting your time with Albion. He knows he's wrong.

 

[Hawkiz]

I'll use "Thursday's" format to answer that, Hawkiz:

The Pope is the head of the Church
All bishops are equal as successors of the Apostles
The Pope is infallible under certain circumstances
There is no Papal Infallibility
Salvation is to be done by immersion
Salvation is usually done by pouring
Women may be ordained to the priesthood
The priesthood is reserved for males only
Divorce and remarriage is forbidden
Up to four marriages are allowed
Purgatory is a place in the afterlife
There is no Purgatory

and so on

As it happens, some of your list is true for Catholics, and to some measure, required to be considered Catholic, and the answers are stated clearly within the catechism:
The Pope is considered the head of the Church.
All bishops are considered equals as successors of the Apostles.
The Pope is infallible under certain circumstances.
One particular mode of receiving the grace of salvation is through baptism, although neither mode you listed is absolutely required.
The priesthood is reserved for males. (Perhaps you are confusing the deaconate orders, which were at one time in history open to women, and the concept is being reviewed again by Pope Francis?).
Divorce and remarriage without a decree of nullity is forbidden. I have never heard of 'up to 4 marriages being allowed'...that made me lol!
That purgation of earthly attachments may occur (maybe to many) is held, but the Church does not require that it be viewed as a 'place'.

The others? I await your sources before commenting further.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Albion]

As it happens, some of your list is true for Catholics, and to some measure, required to be considered Catholic, and the answers are stated clearly within the catechism:
The Pope is considered the head of the Church.
All bishops are considered equals as successors of the Apostles.
The Pope is infallible under certain circumstances.
One particular mode of receiving the grace of salvation is through baptism, although neither mode you listed is absolutely required.
The priesthood is reserved for males. (Perhaps you are confusing the deaconate orders, which were at one time in history open to women, and the concept is being reviewed again by Pope Francis?).
Divorce and remarriage without a decree of nullity is forbidden. I have never heard of 'up to 4 marriages being allowed'...that made me lol!
That purgation of earthly attachments may occur (maybe to many) is held, but the Church does not require that it be viewed as a 'place'.

The others? I await your sources before commenting further.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

You are apparently insisting upon an examination of the Roman Catholic Church only. I clearly said "Catholic churches," which you appear to have completely blown off after I gave you the names of some Catholic churches to look up (since you said you couldn't find anything with a search engine).

And the claim that was made by Thursday was of ALL PROTESTANT churches vs. the one church headed by the Pope. If that standard were applied in reverse, and we compared a single Protestant church body--the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, for example--with ALL CATHOLIC churches...the same result would be found:

"This one is united, but if we compare it to all of those at once as though they were one denomination, they're not united... nya nya nana na."

It's theological smoke and mirrors, and YOU are better than that, in my estimation, Hawkiz.

 

[Hawkiz]

Of course.


Did you look up Eastern Orthodoxy, Church of the East, Armenian Apostolic Church, Polish National Catholic Church, or Old Catholic Churches?

The Eastern Orthodox would not consider themselves to be in union with Rome.
The Armenian Catholic Church, which is in union with Rome, should not be confused with the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is not.
Same is true for the Polish National Catholic Church, which is seeking unity with Rome, but is not currently joined.
Also true for the Old Catholic Churches...these are decidedly not in union...
So none of these sources fit the definition of capital C Catholic, even if some have taken on the name 'Catholic'.

So again, the Roman Church, along with the eastern Catholic Churches who are, while a bit more 'autonomous' than the Roman Church, in full communion with Rome, and do not hold to any differing beliefs, including those within your list. Again, just because a church has chosen to call themselves Catholic, does not mean unity, any more than a church that calls themselves Anglican holds the same theology as another Anglican Church might.
Please either revise your list based upon churches that are actually Catholic, or concede that your sources are do not include those aforementioned churches as Catholic...because even the web sites for those Churches clearly state that they are not in union with Rome, or even with each other.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Albion]

The Eastern Orthodox would not consider themselves to be in union with Rome.
The Armenian Catholic Church, which is in union with Rome, should not be confused with the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is not.
Same is true for the Polish National Catholic Church, which is seeking unity with Rome, but is not currently joined.
Also true for the Old Catholic Churches...these are decidedly not in union...
So none of these sources fit the definition of capital C Catholic, even if some have taken on the name 'Catholic'.

They're all Catholic churches, just as the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches are all Protestant churches.

Whether or not any church body incorporates the word Catholic or Protestant into their name is irrelevant. The Catholic Apostolic Church and the Anglican Catholic Church, for instance, are considered to be Protestant churches.

 

[Hawkiz]

You are apparently insisting upon an examination of the Roman Catholic Church only. I clearly said "Catholic churches," which you appear to have completely blown off after I gave you the names of some Catholic churches to look up (since you said you couldn't find anything with a search engine).

And the claim that was made by Thursday was of ALL PROTESTANT churches vs. the one church headed by the Pope. If that standard were applied in reverse, and we compared a single Protestant church body--the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, for example--with ALL CATHOLIC churches...the same result would be found:

"This one is united, but if we compare it to all of those at once as though they were one denomination, they're not united... nya nya nana na."

It's theological smoke and mirrors, and YOU are better than that, in my estimation, Hawkiz.

Ok, my mistake on context within the discussion then...(your previous post did specifically mention the Roman Church, so I apparently mistakenly extended that thought). however, I think my point about making a generalization based upon how a church names itself still stands: and is actually confirmed by your statement above, in that a church calling itself 'Catholic' does not equate to unity (although I could make a case that by sheer definition it should!), any more than a Church calling itself Anglican or Lutheran does.

So, if we go with your definition of a Catholic Church, does it become equally as fair to divide the Anglican community by the same standard? You know that I don't do that, even if some less than charitable people might...and if we go with your definition of a Catholic Church, then I can see why: a) you made the list that you did, and b) why you claimed that Catholic Churches do not have the level of unity that they may wish they had.

Fair?
And for the record, while we continue to disagree on the intricacies of many topics, and Thursday and I agree on almost everything, I do not find answering you to be a waste of time.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Hawkiz]

They're all Catholic churches, just as the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches are all Protestant churches.

Whether or not any church body incorporates the word Catholic or Protestant into their name is irrelevant. The Catholic Apostolic Church and the Anglican Catholic Church, for instance, are considered to be Protestant churches.[/

So then we shouldn't refer to them as Catholic when making a point should we? Or else the name IS relevant isn't it? Or am I misunderstanding again?

 

[Albion]

Ok, my mistake on context within the discussion then...(your previous post did specifically mention the Roman Church, so I apparently mistakenly extended that thought). however, I think my point about making a generalization based upon how a church names itself still stands: and is actually confirmed by your statement above, in that a church calling itself 'Catholic' does not equate to unity

And that, of course, is my point. The claim that "the Catholic Church is united. Too bad about those 30,000 others" is a trick with words. There are many Catholic churches, just as there are many Protestant churches and also some cults that are sorta Christian but are neither Catholic nor Protestant. Anyone can easily make it seem as though the church of one's choice is uniquely united by comparing it, by itself, with every other church at once...and treating these others as though they were a single denomination.

any more than a Church calling itself Anglican or Lutheran does.

Certainly.

So, if we go with your definition of a Catholic Church, does it become equally as fair to divide the Anglican community by the same standard?

Sure.

You know that I don't do that, even if some less than charitable people might...and if we go with your definition of a Catholic Church, then I can see why: a) you made the list that you did, and b) why you claimed that Catholic Churches do not have the level of unity that they may wish they had.

Fair?

Yes.

And for the record, while we continue to disagree on the intricacies of many topics, and Thursday and I agree on almost everything, I do not find answering you to be a waste of time.

Same here!

 

[Graham Dull]

Jesus gave his authority to the Church:

Jesus gave his authority to the Church

This is correct.

The church of the first century received its authority directly from Jesus Christ. The church proclaimed his teachings, instructions, and doctrines which were to be observed by the Christian community. These instructions of the church are recorded in the New Testament scriptures.

Jesus never gave authority for any members of the church to alter these teachings at a later date, even if it called itself the Roman Catholic Church.

Remember, Jesus Christ is not dead, he is alive. He himself is the Head of the church.

Here are some teachings of the church.

A BISHOP -- ONE WIFE
Bishops were appointed. They were not to have more than one wife.
1 Timothy 3:2
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.”

APOSTLES’ WIVES
The Apostles were accompanied on trips by their wives.
1 Corinthians 9:5
“Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas (Peter)?

PETER’S MOTHER-IN-LAW
Jesus healed Peter’s wife’s mother.
Matthew 8:14
“When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.”

CELIBACY
One could choose to be celibate.
1 Corinthians 7:37
“But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.”

SOME FORBADE MARRIAGE
Paul spoke against those who would forbid someone-else to marry.
1 Timothy 4:3
“They forbid people to marry.”

Who would dare to change these teachings?

Life from God .com
http://lifefromgod.com/

 

[Thursday]

Jesus gave his authority to the Church

This is correct.

The church of the first century received its authority directly from Jesus Christ. The church proclaimed his teachings, instructions, and doctrines which were to be observed by the Christian community. These instructions of the church are recorded in the New Testament scriptures.

Jesus never gave authority for any members of the church to alter these teachings at a later date, even if it called itself the Roman Catholic Church.

Not all of the instructions of Jesus and the apostles are written in the New Testament.

Paul said: 2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

The Church does not alter the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, it preserves and proclaims them.

It is easy to see when we read the words of the early Christians that their beliefs are consistent with Catholic beliefs of today, while many protestant beliefs are more modern innovations.

For example:

From St. Ignatius, a disciple of John:

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 107 A.D.

Origen

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

 

[Albion]

Not all of the instructions of Jesus and the apostles are written in the New Testament.

Paul said: 2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

As we've said many times, tell us what those traditions are and you might have a point.

 

[Thursday]

As we've said many times, tell us what those traditions are and you might have a point.

Try reading my whole post. Here is a good example:

Origen

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

And here's another:

Pope Clement I



"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

 

[Albion]

Try reading my whole post.

Need to resolve your misuse of the word "traditions" first. As you know, "traditions" refer to all sorts of customs and ideas that come to us over the years. There is nothing in the verse you quoted that indicates that there is anything that 1) we are to know but it's not in Scripture or 2) the "traditions" were doctrinal. If Paul was telling his listeners to keep up going to synagogue, for instance, that has zero to do with inventing new dogmas.

 

[Thursday]

Need to resolve your misuse of the word "traditions" first. As you know, "traditions" refer to all sorts of customs and ideas that come to us over the years. There is nothing in the verse you quoted that indicates that there is anything that 1) we are to know but it's not in Scripture or 2) the "traditions" were doctrinal. If Paul was telling his listeners to keep up going to synagogue, for instance, that has zero to do with inventing new dogmas.

1) If you read the message from Thes. 2 you would see that Paul tells them to hold to the traditions that were written and those that are oral. If they were all written down then he wouldn't need to give this instruction.

2)The Church doesn't invent new dogmas.

Evasions and straw dogs, as usual.

 

[Albion]

1) If you read the message from Thes. 2 you would see that Paul tells them to hold to the traditions that were written and those that are oral. If they were all written down then he wouldn't need to give this instruction.

I didn't say that there was any such need.

2)The Church doesn't invent new dogmas.

Oh, right.

Assumption of Mary
Papal Infallibility
Transubstantiation

Shall I continue?

 

[Thursday]

I didn't say that there was any such need.


Oh, right.

Assumption of Mary
Papal Infallibility
Transubstantiation

Shall I continue?

Those dogmas are from apostolic traditions, like those Paul mentioned.

You can continue your straw dog arguments, deceptions, misinformation, and evasions if you like.

 

[Albion]

Those dogmas are from apostolic traditions, like those Paul mentioned..

Paul didn't mention any particular traditions in the verse you cited, and all the doctrines on my short list originated much after the start of the Christian era.