The issues with Sola Scriptura

[DJKWord]

That's why Jesus started a single Church with a single teaching authority and told the rest of us to listen to the Church.

What about the aforementioned persecutions and the Inquisition? If the church told you to torture or kill someone, would you do it?

And stop saying Christ started your church. The RCC we know today took shape with man-made doctrines added one by one over hundreds of years.

Like all protestants, you are leaning on your own understanding.

Protestants stick to the Bible--that's how the whole Protestantism business got started.

 

[Graham Dull]

Protestants don't acknowledge the authority of the Church and the Bishops. Catholics and early Christians do.

.
The Catholics claim great authority. His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII made this quite clear. "every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff."

The Church has Two Swords

The two swords of the church are the spiritual and the temporal.

• The second sword (the temporal) is the material sword.
• This sword is administered by the Church,
• in the hands of kings and soldiers,
• at the will and sufferance of the priest.
• every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Unam Sanctam
His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII -- November 18, 1302
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm

URGED BY FAITH, we are obliged to believe…
We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal…
Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church, but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest…
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
------------

The church has great authority

The church has great authority. And its authority extends to the sword. Every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

The church has boldly proclaimed the preeminence of its authority in this respect. History supports its claim.

The sword is (was) used at the will and sufferance of the priest, every human creature being subject to the Roman Pontiff.
------------

Protestants recognize --

CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under Christ's feet and appointed him (Christ) to be head over everything for the church.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight... my kingdom not from here.
.

 

[ToBeLoved]

.
The Catholics claim great authority. His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII made this quite clear. "every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff."

The Church has Two Swords

The two swords of the church are the spiritual and the temporal.

• The second sword (the temporal) is the material sword.
• This sword is administered by the Church,
• in the hands of kings and soldiers,
• at the will and sufferance of the priest.
• every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Unam Sanctam
His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII -- November 18, 1302
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm

URGED BY FAITH, we are obliged to believe…
We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal…
Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church, but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest…
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
------------

The church has great authority

The church has great authority. And its authority extends to the sword. Every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

The church has boldly proclaimed the preeminence of its authority in this respect. History supports its claim.

The sword is (was) used at the will and sufferance of the priest, every human creature being subject to the Roman Pontiff.
------------

Protestants recognize --

CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under Christ's feet and appointed him (Christ) to be head over everything for the church.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight... my kingdom not from here.
.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

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[Thursday]

Protestants stick to the Bible--that's how the whole Protestantism business got started.

Protestants stick to their individual, fallible interpretations of the bible. That's why Protestants believe so many different and contradictory things about scripture.

 

[patdee]

So the concept of Sola Scriptura, which I shall reference as SS from now on, has been in debate here for the past few days it seems. After reading and watching and debating on a few threads myself, I decided to make a new thread in regards to the issues with this concept.

This will be a long post, please read entirely before responding

First, here is the definition of SS: is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice.

On the surface, this sounds like a rather valid idea. The Bible is the written word of God right? So how could there be anything higher?

However, when we dig past the surface, there are 3 key issues that come up in regards to SS.

1) The defense of SS is circular logic

First, the definition of circular logic: is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.

Case in point, the Bible.
S)I believe in SS, everything must be found in the Bible.
Q) Well where in the Bible does it teach SS?
S) We know that the Bible is the word of God, so therefore everything must be found in the Bible.
Q) Who told you that it was the word of God?
S) The Bible clearly states that it is the word of God.
Q) I ask again, where in the Bible does it teach SS?
S) The Bible does not need to state SS since it is the word of God.

Every time a question is asked against SS, the statement goes right back to the Bible. This ends up having the debate get absolutely nowhere. How can you defend something, that when you defend it, it places you in a logical fallacy?

This leads right into issue 2
2) SS is found nowhere in the Bible

As stated above, SS claims that the Bible is the highest authority and that everything must be in the Bible for it to be true.

However, the actual concept of SS is found nowhere in the Bible. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of places that support scripture, as it should, since the Bible is the written word of God.

Namely 2 Timothy 3:14-16 and John 20:30-31

These do not state SS however, as the Bible also gives testament to traditions, namely Traditions of Christ.

Namely in 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6

If we were to believe that SS was true, then by its own argument, it must be found in the Bible. If we look at John, this does not tell us SS. In fact, it is stating that Johns gospel should be enough, not the Bible. If we look at Timothy, it also does not state SS. Instead, is referring to the OT on how it is divine scripture and learning it leads to Jesus Christ.

Funny enough, in Timothy, Paul also points out the importance of apostolic tradition with verse 14.

Now on the issue 3

3) SS and authority

Now this will be the largest part. What do I mean by the above statement? This statement is directly tied to the question "If all these denominations follow SS, then why are there so many different ones all following the same book, claim the same truth, yet differ in beliefs?"

There tends to be only 1 answer to this question, and that is that "SS does not determine how the Bible is interpreted. Some denominations are more right than others."

The obvious follow-up question is "Well who is more right and how do you know?"

Another answer that I have heard is "The Bible interprets itself." which is completely impossible, since the Bible is a book. And a book cannot interpret itself.

The issue here is, when you believe the Bible is the highest authority, then there cannot be an authority to interpret the Bible since that authority would then have to be higher or equal to the Bible.

Here, many will say that the Holy Spirit allows us to interpret the Bible. If this was true, then why would the Holy Spirit create so many differing denominations? Does the Holy Spirit teach contradiction? The obvious answer is No.

So then, who has the authority to interpret the Bible and how would one know which interpretation is the best? By following SS, there is no answer here.

This then falls to self-interpretation of the Bible. Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation, actually quoted, before his death, saying "There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams."

With self-interpretation of the Bible, and you come to a different interpretation than the churches in your area, nothing can stop you from making your own church. Nobody has the authority to say you are wrong in your interpretation because that would then place them at the same level of authority has the Bible. Which is against SS.

With SS, everybody is right in their interpretation of the Bible, and everybody is also wrong in their interpretation of the Bible.

Logically, since not everybody is right in their interpretation of the Bible, there needs to be an authority higher or equal to the Bible to claim what is the correct interpretation.

That authority falls to the Church that was started by Jesus. The Bible came from that Church in the late 4th century. That Church being the only Church to be able to trace itself back to the first Pope, St Peter. That Church, first being called the Catholic Church in the year 107AD by St Ignatius of Antioch. That Church being the Catholic Church, which at the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 AD developed the Nicene Creed and started the process developing a Church canon, the Bible and without this Church, nobody would have the Bible today.

The 3 authorities: https://www.crossroadsinitiative.co...word-of-god-part-3-tradition-and-magisterium/
Early Church Fathers on Holy Tradition: http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_tradition.htm
Council of Nicaea: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
Council of Carthage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Carthage#Synod_of_397
St Ignatius: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

God Bless

 

[Thursday]

Well you really haven't provided any proof of why you think this is so. So at this point should I just take your word for it, or do you have some proof of this?

I've provided ample proof for someone with an open mind.

I get the idea you aren't even reading my posts.

Tell me, how do you explain that the early Christians believed like Catholics still believe today, yet your beliefs are not found in the writings of the early Christians?

 

[Thursday]

.
The Catholics claim great authority. His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII made this quite clear. "every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff."

The Church has Two Swords

The two swords of the church are the spiritual and the temporal.

• The second sword (the temporal) is the material sword.
• This sword is administered by the Church,
• in the hands of kings and soldiers,
• at the will and sufferance of the priest.
• every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Unam Sanctam
His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII -- November 18, 1302
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm

URGED BY FAITH, we are obliged to believe…
We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal…
Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church, but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest…
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
------------

The church has great authority

The church has great authority. And its authority extends to the sword. Every human creature is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

The church has boldly proclaimed the preeminence of its authority in this respect. History supports its claim.

The sword is (was) used at the will and sufferance of the priest, every human creature being subject to the Roman Pontiff.
------------

Protestants recognize --

CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under Christ's feet and appointed him (Christ) to be head over everything for the church.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight... my kingdom not from here.
.

Do you believe this?

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

 

[Albion]

Protestants stick to their individual, fallible interpretations of the bible. That's why Protestants believe so many different and contradictory things about scripture.

I don't know a single Protestant who holds to "different and contradictory things about scripture." Whether he's for infant baptism or against it, for example, he holds one view.

 

[Thursday]

I don't know a single Protestant who holds to "different and contradictory things about scripture." Whether he's for infant baptism or against it, for example, he holds one view.

What is the protestant view on infant baptism?

How about predestination to Hell?

How about OSAS?

How about the necessity of baptism?

You know I am right on this yet you try to deceive with silly word games. Why don't you stop playing games and face the truth?

 

[Albion]

What is the protestant view on infant baptism?

Who's the Protestant you're asking about?

You know I am right on this yet you try to deceive with silly word games. Why don't you stop playing games and face the truth?

Now, that is actually rather funny, considering that it is you who are playing a game with words, comparing hundreds of unrelated churches to one, single denomination--your own. Of course you want it to look as though the former is in disarray and yours is not, but that is a game since we all know that if you compare one to a hundred of ANYTHING, you can make the lone one look more united.

But even that isn't true in this case, since Roman Catholics believe all sorts of contradictory things even while they hold membership in a single denomination.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Protestants stick to their individual, fallible interpretations of the bible. That's why Protestants believe so many different and contradictory things about scripture.

Well that is interesting, because the Catholic Church has more man-made doctrine than any other church. And the Catholic Church adds to the Bible, through men, what was never there.

Also, provide some proof that protestants interpreted the Bible wrong? Why not use the Bible to do it, eh.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've provided ample proof for someone with an open mind.

I get the idea you aren't even reading my posts.

Tell me, how do you explain that the early Christians believed like Catholics still believe today, yet your beliefs are not found in the writings of the early Christians?

I am reading your posts, hence why I am replying to them, with this being a good example of that.

Now what 'early Christians' are you speaking of? Note that the earliest Christians were the Apostles, but you cant use them as your example because Roman Catholicism is nothing like the early church

 

[ToBeLoved]

What is the protestant view on infant baptism?

How about predestination to Hell?

How about OSAS?

How about the necessity of baptism?

You know I am right on this yet you try to deceive with silly word games. Why don't you stop playing games and face the truth?

Come on, if you have no idea what the protestant view is, how can you say they are wrong.

lol.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've provided ample proof for someone with an open mind.

Oh, do you mean your own churches doctrine to say they are the only church? Isn't that swell. Come on, get real here.

 

[patdee]

I was in one accord with your "SS" and "Circular reasoning" until you made a horrible statement about the Roman Catholic church. So you did the SAME thing that you say "Christians" do/did. IE:

You say that "Jesus made Peter the first Pope". That is THE most ridiculous thing a person could say. Jesus would MAKE no man the head of "His church" that he called "satan", and told him to "Get thee behind me". Let alone, a man that DENIED Jesus-not once, not twice, but thrice; BEFORE "the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed". The notion that Peter was your "first pope" is a Roman empirical LIE (YES-the entire Catholic hierarchy is nothing but an extension of the old satan-led, Godless, Roman empire with different names).

IE: Instead of Emperors you have popes; instead of Kings you have cardinals; instead of Governors you have bishops and instead of "Tribunes you have "priests", etc. Also, YOUR Roman Church has persecuted "saints" for centuries. It is conservatively estimated that between the years 538 AD and 1798 AD, the RCC tortured and MURDERED, in the most horrible of ways, over 50 million "saints" (Born Again Christians). NOT even Adolph Hitler can claim that number; for he is credited with only 25 million tortures and deaths. So the Roman Catholic Cult (called Roman Catholics) is more evil than Adolph Hitler and his "nazi Germany". Oh indeed yes.

There is NOT an "unbroken" succession of "popes" that began with Peter. That is a satan-led, Godless, Roman catholic, bold-faced lie; perpetrated by the Roman hierarchy; dubbed The "RCC". For there is not one shred of credible evidence that peter was ever in Rome; let alone the myth that he was crucified "upside down" at his own behest. Again, "RCC Lies".

Jesus' Church has NO name. It was NOT built upon a mortal man. It was built upon "WHO" Jesus was, is and shall forever be. IE: Jesus WAS God Almighty "manifest IN the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). The "rock" was NOT Peter. That is another Roman LIE! When Jesus said "rock" he meant "FOUNDATION". It had NOTHING to do with Peter. YOU and your satan-led, Godless RCC are liars that have brain washed catholics for 1600 yrs!

In fact you are NOT even a church-you are a cult. You have NO clue what a true church is. The church that Jesus "built" is ANY where on earth "where 2 or more are gathered in HIS name"; and it is not the name of a man made church. Jesus, who was God manifest IN the flesh, would NEVER entrust His church to mortal man. For We ALL sin ALL the time. Jesus does NOT sin. HE is the "rock" of "His" church. He was God manifest IN the flesh. The jews did NOT believe that.

This is why Jesus asked the multitudes; "WHO am I?". When they did not know, He turned to His disciples and said, "but WHO do YOU say I am?" Peter's answer was, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the LIVING God". He meant: Jesus was "The Messiah" (The Christ); who was a "living" God manifest IN the flesh; that was "dwelling amongst them".

Then Jesus said to Peter, "And thou art Peter"...(In today's vernacular: "HEAR ME PETER! OPEN YOUR EARS! Read My Lips!"), "Upon this "rock" (foundation) "I will build MY (not man's) church", "and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it". "And whatsoever that (MY CHURCH) does, comes from heaven (NOT of this world). And whatsoever that (MY Church) rebukes, will be cursed in heaven. not from this world!"

Sadly; YOUR "cult", AKA: RCC, are led by satan, as always, to destroy the truth, and substitute it with lies. Whether you believe it or not. You belong to a satan-led, Godless cult. And you are blinded to the truth. "For there are none so blind, as they that who will not see".

Now back to "SS and the Bible".

The bible, as you said, is NOT the word of God. That is a Christian lie. The bible does NOT teach that it is the "The Word". It plainly and clearly states that Jesus is the "Word" in John 1:1 and John 1:14. It is satan that has perpetrated the lie that the bible is the "Word of God". The reason is:

This then causes Christians to replace Jesus (the Word) with a book called the "bible"-and in time they worship the bible instead of Jesus. Also, Jesus NEVER said the bible was the "way, the truth and the life and NO man can come to the father except by the bible". Nor did he use the word "scripture". He said HE was everything we need.

Thus: Christians that worship the bible as their "authority"; are making satan very happy. Because that means they are worshiping a "false god" instead of the true God (the "Word"-who is Jesus).

There is NO authority on earth or in heaven, except for Jesus; not to mention the "ultimate authority". Many Christians say, "Well if I cannot believe IN the bible, HOW am I going to know?" What a silly question. You GO to Jesus (in sincere prayer) and worship HIM and HIM alone; and then and only then will you be led to truth wherever it might be found. He never said to "Come to scripture and it will give you peace and rest, etc, etc, and etc."

IE: You could read "the bible" for one billion years and if the Holy Spirit of Jesus was not guiding you EVERY step of the way, you WILL be deceived by satan and he will laugh you all the way to hell! The SAME thing if you go to a mortal being.

"Sola Fide'" is the secret. "Faith IN Jesus" is the ONLY way. NOT scripture, UNLESS you are guided by HIM to go there. And ONLY then.

NO Pope is any more capable of interpreting scripture than any one else. Self interpretation of the bible by any one, will cause misinterpretations EVERY time; UNLESS one is guided by Jesus. That is fact absolute. Without being guided by the holy spirit of Christ, satan WILL cause lies to believed as "truth" EVERY time. For satan is the master at deception. Only Jesus can steer us around that "Devil". OH indeed yes!

A pope is nothing but a "Pompous" satan-led, Godless "egotist". ALL will know this one day. For we are ALL as an unclean thing, and ALL our righteousnesses are filthy rags and ALL of our sins have taken us away like a leaf in the wind (Isaiah 64:6). This includes EVERY one who has EVER lived; and that includes "Pompous Popentates". Who have NOT a clue from whence they speak. ONLY Jesus is the truth.

Whether you or any one believes it or not. There are countless errors in ALL scripture. Oh indeed yes. But many verses are also pure golden truth from Jesus. But NO one has the wisdom to discern what is inspired by Jesus and what is inspired by satan; UNLESS that person prays for wisdom and understanding AND Jesus answers that prayer. Sometimes He will-sometimes He will not.

The wise person waits for HIM to lead us to truth. Looking for it on our own leads to yet another win for satan. Oh indeed yes.

Believe it or not.

May Jesus richly bless you and yours always,

patdee

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do you believe this?

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

This verse has nothing to do with Catholicism. You are really grasping now.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was in one accord with your "SS" and "Circular reasoning" until you made a horrible statement about the Roman Catholic church. So you did the SAME thing that you say "Christians" do/did. IE:

You say that "Jesus made Peter the first Pope". That is THE most ridiculous thing a person could say. Jesus would MAKE no man the head of "His church" that he called "satan", and told him to "Get thee behind me". Let alone, a man that DENIED Jesus-not once, not twice, but thrice; AFTER "the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed". The notion that Peter was your "first pope" is a Roman empirical LIE (YES-the entire Catholic hierarchy is nothing but an extension of the old satan-led, Godless, Roman empire with different names).

IE: Instead of Emperors you have popes; instead of Kings you have cardinals; instead of Governors you have bishops and instead of "Tribunes you have "priests", etc. Also, YOUR Roman Church has persecuted "saints" for centuries. It is conservatively estimated that between the years 538 AD and 1798 AD, the RCC tortured and MURDERED, in the most horrible of ways, over 50 million "saints" (Born Again Christians). NOT even Adolph Hitler can claim that number; for he is credited with only 25 million tortures and deaths. So the Roman Catholic Cult (called Roman Catholics) is more evil than Adolph Hitler and his "nazi Germany". Oh indeed yes.

There is NOT an "unbroken" succession of "popes" that began with Peter. That is a satan-led, Godless, Roman catholic, bold-faced lie; perpetrated by the Roman hierarchy; dubbed The "RCC". For there is not one shred of evidence that peter was ever in Rome; let alone the myth that he was crucified "upside down" at his own behest. Again, "RCC Lies".

Jesus' Church has NO name. It was NOT built upon a mortal man. It was built upon "WHO" Jesus was, is and shall forever be. IE: Jesus WAS God Almighty "manifest IN the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). The "rock" was NOT Peter. That is another Roman LIE! When Jesus said "rock" he meant "FOUNDATION". It had NOTHING to do with Peter. YOU and your satan-led, Godless RCC are liars that have brain washed catholics for 1600 yrs!

In fact you are NOT even a church-you are a cult. You have NO clue what a true church is. The church that Jesus "built" is ANY where on earth "where 2 or more are gathered in HIS name"; and it is not the name of a man made church. Jesus, who was God manifest IN the flesh, would NEVER entrust His church to mortal man. For We ALL sin ALL the time. Jesus does NOT sin. HE is the "rock" of "His" church. He was God manifest IN the flesh. The jews did NOT believe that.

This is why Jesus asked the multitudes; "WHO am I?". When they did not know, He turned to His disciples and said, "but WHO do YOU say I am?" Peter's answer was, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the LIVING God". He meant: Jesus was "The Messiah" (The Christ); who was a "living" God manifest IN the flesh; that was "dwelling amongst them".

Then Jesus said to Peter, "And thou art Peter"...(In today's vernacular: "HEAR ME PETER! OPEN YOUR EARS! Read My Lips!"), "Upon this "rock" (foundation) "I will build MY (not man's) church", "and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it". "And whatsoever that (MY CHURCH) does, comes from heaven (NOT of this world). And whatsoever that (MY Church) rebukes, will be cursed in heaven. not from this world!"

Sadly; YOUR "cult", AKA: RCC, are led by satan, as always, to destroy the truth, and substitute it with lies. Whether you believe it or not. You belong to a satan-led, Godless cult. And you are blinded to the truth. "For there are none so blind, as they that who will not see".

Now back to "SS and the Bible".

The bible, as you said, is NOT the word of God. That is a Christian lie. The bible does NOT teach that it is the "The Word". It plainly and clearly states that Jesus is the "Word" in John 1:1 and John 1:14. It is satan that has perpetrated the lie that the bible is the "Word of God". The reason is:

This then causes Christians to replace Jesus (the Word) with a book called the "bible"-and in time they worship the bible instead of Jesus. Also, Jesus NEVER said the bible was the "way, the truth and the life and NO man can come to the father except by the bible". Nor did he use the word "scripture". He said HE was everything we need.

Thus: Christians that worship the bible as their "authority"; are making satan very happy. Because that means they are worshiping a "false god" instead of the true God (the "Word"-who is Jesus).

There is NO authority on earth or in heaven, except for Jesus; not to mention the "ultimate authority". Many Christians say, "Well if I cannot believe IN the bible, HOW am I going to know?" What a silly question. You GO to Jesus (in sincere prayer) and worship HIM and HIM alone; and then and only then will you be led to truth wherever it might be found. He never said to "Come to scripture and it will give you peace and rest, etc, etc, and etc."

IE: You could read "the bible" for one billion years and if the Holy Spirit of Jesus was not guiding you EVERY step of the way, you WILL be deceived by satan and he will laugh you all the way to hell! The SAME thing if you go to a mortal being.

"Sola Fide'" is the secret. "Faith IN Jesus" is the ONLY way. NOT scripture, UNLESS you are guided by HIM to go there. And ONLY then.

NO Pope is any more capable of interpreting scripture than any one else. Self interpretation of the bible by any one, will cause misinterpretations EVERY time; UNLESS one is guided by Jesus. That is fact absolute. Without being guided by the holy spirit of Christ, satan WILL cause lies to believed as "truth" EVERY time. For satan is the master at deception. Only Jesus can steer us around that "Devil". OH indeed yes!

A pope is nothing but a "Pompous" satan-led, Godless "egotist". ALL will know this one day. For we are ALL as an unclean thing, and ALL our righteousnesses are filthy rags and ALL of our sins have taken us away like a leaf in the wind (Isaiah 64:6). This includes EVERY one who has EVER lived; and that includes "Pompous Popentates". Who have NOT a clue from whence they speak. ONLY Jesus is the truth.

Whether you or any one believes it or not. There are countless errors in ALL scripture. Oh indeed yes. But many verses are also pure golden truth from Jesus. But NO one has the wisdom to discern what is inspired by Jesus and what is inspired by satan; UNLESS that person prays for wisdom and understanding AND Jesus answers that prayer. Sometimes He will-sometimes He will not.

The wise person waits for HIM to lead us to truth. Looking for it on our own leads to yet another win for satan. Oh indeed yes.

Believe it or not.

May Jesus richly bless you and yours always,

patdee

I was with you up until you said this:

This then causes Christians to replace Jesus (the Word) with a book called the "bible"-and in time they worship the bible instead of Jesus. Also, Jesus NEVER said the bible was the "way, the truth and the life and NO man can come to the father except by the bible". Nor did he use the word "scripture". He said HE was everything we need.

Thus: Christians that worship the bible as their "authority"; are making satan very happy. Because that means they are worshiping a "false god" instead of the true God (the "Word"-who is Jesus).

How do you refute that the Bible is God-breathed, yet the Bible is not right? Are you saying that God can state an untruth and therefore sin? Holding up the Bible as the God-breathed Word of God only elevates Jesus Christ. It only elevates the teachings of the Apostles, WHICH CHRIST CHOSE to lead His church after His death.


So you need to explain that situation because no one worships the Bible that I have ever met. When we are praying we are talking to JESUS, not a Bible, not a book. When we place our faith it is in the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS. Not a Bible and not a book.

When we worship Christ in song, we are not worshipping a Bible or a book.

So you prove your case and me wrong.

 

[Albion]

Well that is interesting, because the Catholic Church has more man-made doctrine than any other church. And the Catholic Church adds to the Bible, through men, what was never there.

Moreover, it is clear that Roman Catholics--as well as Catholics generally--are all over the place when it comes to what they actually believe. Many consider their church to be flatout wrong when it comes to not ordaining women, making remarriage difficult, thinking that the bread and wine in Communion are really flesh and literal blood, and much more.

They simply don't believe such things and look forward to the day when the church will change its mind about such policies and beliefs as it did with Limbo and some other teachings. But they also are afraid to leave the church for a different one because they've been told that it is the only true church and because membership in it plus good works, not faith, is considered to be the way to salvation.

 

[DJKWord]

Protestants stick to their individual, fallible interpretations of the bible. That's why Protestants believe so many different and contradictory things about scripture.

Your original claim was that Protestants "lean on their own understanding." No, Protestants stick to the Bible.

Different and contradictory things? No, I think it's more like we reject certain doctrines because they're not in the Bible. It can never be said too many times: Not In The Bible. Like praying to Mary and the saints, bread literally turns into Christ's flesh, that this man in Rome has the same apostolic authority Peter had, that our salvation is parceled out one Mass at a time, etc. etc. etc.

It seems to me, these things were added by men leaning on their own understanding and deluded that they were "infallible" (seemingly a favorite word among Catholics) with exclusive "authority" (another favorite word) to "interpret" (still another one). Then they elevate these errors above the Bible, and when someone brings this to your attention, you accuse him of mis-"interpreting."

Well could you answer me this? How does one misinterpret something that's not there?