The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

"Let no soul complain of the servants of
God who have come to us with a heaven-sent
message. Do not any longer pick flaws in
them, saying, 'They are too positive; they
talk too strongly.' They may talk strongly;
but is it not needed?"

"Ministers, do not dishonor God and grieve His
Holy Spirit by casting reflections on the ways
and manners of the men He would choose. He sees
the temperament of the men He has chosen. He
knows that none but earnest, firm, determined,
strong-feeling men will view this work in its
vital importance, and will put firmness and
decision into their testimonies that they will
make a break against the barriers of Satan."
Testimonies to Ministers, pp.410-413. (1898)

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

"God gives men counsel and reproof for
their good. He has sent His message,
telling them what was needed for the
time. Did you heed the message? Did you
heed the appeal? He gave you opportunity
to come up armed and equipped to the help
of the Lord. And having done all, he told
you to stand. But did you make ready? Did
you say, 'Here am I; send me'? You sat
still and did nothing. You left the word
of the Lord to fall unheeded to the ground;
and now the Lord has taken men who were boys
when you were standing at the forefront of
the battle, and has given to them the message
and the work which you did not take upon you.
Will you be stumbling blocks to them? Will you
criticize? Will you say, 'they are getting out
of their place'? Yet you did not fill the place
they are now called to fill." Testimonies to
Ministers, p.413.

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

A letter from Mrs. White written from Cooranbong,
Australia, in 1896, sets the tenor of the time.

It is addressed to the leading men in Battle
Creek:

"Oh, if I could have the joyful news that the wills and
minds of those in Battle Creek who have stood professedly
as leaders, were emancipated from the teachings and slavery
of Satan, whose captives they have been for so long, I would
be willing to cross the broad Pacific to see your faces once
more. But I am not anxious to see you with enfeeble perceptions
and clouded minds because you have chosen darkness rather than
light." Testimonies to Ministers, p.396.

Castaway57 · Sep 2, 2013

rainbowinthesky said:
The very fact that we are still here today
is the most powerful evidence that as a
people, like Israel of old, we have failed of
accomplishing our God-given task. We have
continued to delay the latter rain and the
loud cry and, by the same token, Christ's
second return.

Actually, this is wrong, and it is the other way around. The fact that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is still here, proves that God is still behind it, and still has a purpose for it, and although some have "failed;" many have not. You talk like poor old Elijah who thought he was the only one who had it right.

At any rate, since you refuse to provide references for your wild accusations about the testimonies having some parts "fabricated," and for the alleged interview with Kellogg, your forum posting here can only be seen as lacking in knowledge of what we actually do believe. it is quite evident that you are cutting and pasting this stuff from somewhere, I am not sure yet from where, but anything like this that comes with no verifiable references, cannot be seen as credible. All your Jesus talk here is just a smoke screen. We have learned nothing about Him who first loved us, because of your insistent vitriol on this forum.

* "vitriol" = "Abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will" (Word Web Dictionary)

Castaway57 · Sep 2, 2013

rainbowinthesky said:
A letter from Mrs. White written from Cooranbong,
Australia, in 1896, sets the tenor of the time.

It is addressed to the leading men in Battle
Creek:

"Oh, if I could have the joyful news that the wills and
minds of those in Battle Creek who have stood professedly
as leaders, were emancipated from the teachings and slavery
of Satan, whose captives they have been for so long, I would
be willing to cross the broad Pacific to see your faces once
more. But I am not anxious to see you with enfeeble perceptions
and clouded minds because you have chosen darkness rather than
light." Testimonies to Ministers, p.396.

She wasnt talking about everyone; only a certain few in Battle Creek. Once again, you show a decided lack of knowledge of our beliefs, and official writings thereof.

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

No, I do not copy anything from other
sites other than from my own material.

I have been studying Adventism ever
since 1976. I have spent all these years
not only studying but teaching and, by
the way, I am not a member of any off-shoot.

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that
they were the favorites of Heaven, and that
they were always to be exalted as the church
of God. They were the children of Abraham,
they declared, and so firm did the foundation
of their prosperity seem to them that they
defied earth and heaven to dispossess them
of their rights. But by lives of unfaithfulness
they were preparing for the condemnation
of Heaven and for separation from God." C.O.L.294.

In the same chapter Mrs. White draws the lesson
for us who have come to the end of the ages:

"Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose,
the children of Israel were set aside, and God's
call was extended to other people. If these too
prove unfaithful, will they not in like manner be
rejected?" Idem, 304.

These statements clearly teach that God's call is
conditional and therefore just as there was a
time of probation for the Jewish church, there is
a time of probation for the Adventist church.

sky

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

As early as 1892 Mrs. White warned:

"Of those who boast of their light, and
yet fail to walk in it, Christ says, 'But I
say unto you, It shall be more tolerable
for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment
than for you. And thou, Capernaum (Seventh-
day Adventists, who have had great light,
which art exalted unto Heaven (in point of privilege),
shall be brought down to hell: for if the mighty
works which have been done in thee, had been
done in Sodom, it would have remained until this
day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more
tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of
judgment, than for thee.'" E.G. White, Review
& Herald, Vol.3, p.69, August 1, 1893.
Parenthesis are from Mrs. White.

Solemn warning!

Is our attitude today any different than that of the
Jewish people at the time of the first advent of Christ?
Do we not also boast that we will always be
exalted as the church of God?

We read:

"The trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude
just before the first coming of Christ, have been presented
before me again and again to illustrate the position of the
people of God in their experience before the second coming
of Christ--how the enemy sought every occasion to take
control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking
to blind the minds of God's servants, that they may not
be able to discern the precious truth." 1 S.M.406.

sky

Castaway57 · Sep 2, 2013

rainbowinthesky said:
No, I do not copy anything from other
sites other than from my own material.

I have been studying Adventism ever
since 1976. I have spent all these years
not only studying but teaching and, by
the way, I am not a member of any off-shoot.

sky

I didnt say you were a member of an off shoot. But there is something here you have not said either.

"Studying and teaching," eh? Since 1976? And just how would this qualify you to come to this forum and tell Adventists what they "really believe?"

Satan can skilfully play the game of life with many souls, and he acts in a most underhanded, deceptive manner to spoil the faith of the people of God and to discourage them. . . . He works today as he worked in heaven, to divide the people of God in the very last stage of this earth's history. He seeks to create dissension, and to arouse contention and discussion, and to remove if possible the old landmarks of truth committed to God's people. He tries to make it appear as if the Lord contradicts Himself. {Ev 359.4}

My work in this forum is finished. As usual; I expect you will have the last word, but if you dont, you will have to find someone else to argue with. It doesnt appear you are much interested in a fair discussion where both parties submit evidence/referencs, so all thats left here is for you to continue removing the landmarks, which you have already made mostly unreconizable. You do not speak for our church in any way, and your hub bub here is not about Jesus, so I dont want it.

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

Believe me, it was never my attention
to argue with you or anybody else.

I really dont mean to point the finger but
I have no choice but to invite you to go
back and read how you challenged every
single post of mine, from the word go,
from the moment I began posting
insinuating that I was not a seventh-day
adventist and even judging my motives
for being here. But I won't hold it against
you. Everything is for a reason.

And my "hub bub" as you call it
is about the merits and righteousness
of Christ from start to finish in the
context of last day events and the
history of the Advent movement.

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

"Suppose the statements of others do not agree
with our ideas. Shall we, for this, pronounce
them heresy? Shall we, uninspired men, take
the responsibility of placing our stakes, and
saying, 'this shall not be in print?' Will we
ever realize that the consciences of men are
not given into our command? If you have
appointed committees to do the work which
has been going on for years in Battle Creek,
dismiss them; and remember that God, the
infinite God, has not placed men in any
such positions as they occupied at Minneapolis,
and have occupied since then." T.M. 293-295.

"Let me tell you, if your heart is in the work,
and you have faith in God, you need not depend
upon the sanction of any minister or any people;
if you go right to work in the name of the Lord,
in a humble way doing what you can do to teach
the truth, God will vindicate you." E.G. White,
1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.26.

Castaway57 · Sep 2, 2013

rainbowinthesky said:
Believe me, it was never my attention
to argue with you or anybody else.

I really dont mean to point the finger but
I have no choice but to invite you to go
back and read how you challenged every
single post of mine, from the word go,
from the moment I began posting
insinuating that I was not a seventh-day
adventist and even judging my motives
for being here. But I won't hold it against
you. Everything is for a reason.

And my "hub bub" as you call it
is about the merits and righteousness
of Christ from start to finish in the
context of last day events and the
history of the Advent movement.

I will say one more thing. You are not a seventh-day Adventist, and you know it. It doesn't matter how may years one has "studied" or how many followers you have lined up to "teach;" because in the end, you started from the first post, an attack on the Adventist Church, and you claim the right to say which of Ellen White's writings are "fabricated, thus reducing them to uninspired, and if you took your shoes off for the last few hundred posts you made here all I can say is you better get em back on.

You will not allow us to question you, you will not give reference for your most outrageous claims, and you cannot provide proof that you are an Adventist in good standing with the church. Your posts show otherwise. Maybe I will ask the church in your province if you are still a member.

All you appear to want here is a platform, so I guess you got it. But we dont have to sit idly by while you continue to attack us and our church and our beliefs, and allow the public to think that what you accuse us of here is even half true.

You have provided tons of evidence for the following quote, so now I can rest my case.

Wrong Use of the Testimonies

The first number of the Testimonies ever published contains a warning against the injudicious use of the light which is thus given to God's people. I stated that some had taken an unwise course; when they had talked their faith to unbelievers, and the proof had been asked for, they had read from my writings instead of going to the Bible for proof. It was shown me that this course was inconsistent and would prejudice unbelievers against the truth. The Testimonies can have no weight with those who know nothing of their spirit. They should not be referred to in such cases. {CCh 95.2}

Thus when it is said you are tearing down the church, making the testimonies of no effect, and prejudicing unbelievers; I need say no more. You have done all that/said all that for us. I pray that you will find a way to get rid of the bitter root that makes you hate us so much and continue to attack our beliefs like this. I feel bad for you brother - like I said I have been where you are and it was a dark place to be. And although I know all the sins and errors, just as well or better than you, I refuse to go on the offensive and run at my own brethren with whatever weapons I can find layin around in the wood work.

You have told me more than once I was a Jesuit, a spiritual dwarf, and all manner of other, similar things, and at this point, I will close by saying thank you. You have proved EVERYTHING I have been taught.

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

That which has been is what will be. (Ecc.1:9;
1 Cor.10:11)

"The great leaders of religious thought in this
generation sound the praises and build the
monuments of those who planted the seed
of truth centuries ago. Do not many turn
from this work to trample down the growth
springing from the same seed today? The old
cry is repeated, 'We know that God spake to
Moses; as for this fellow (Christ in the messenger
He sends), we know not from whence he is.' John
9:29.As in earlier ages, the special truths for this
time are found, not with the ecclesiastical
authorities, but with men and women who are not
too learned or too wise to believe the word of God."
Christ' Object Lessons, 79.

rainbowinthesky · Sep 2, 2013

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that
they were the favorites of Heaven, and that
they were always to be exalted as the church
of God. They were the children of Abraham,
they declared, and so firm did the foundation
of their prosperity seem to them that they
defied earth and heaven to dispossess them
of their rights. But by lives of unfaithfulness
they were preparing for the condemnation
of Heaven and for separation from God." C.O.L.294.

In the same chapter Mrs. White draws the lesson
for us who have come to the end of the ages:

"Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose,
the children of Israel were set aside, and God's
call was extended to other people. If these too
prove unfaithful, will they not in like manner be
rejected?" Idem, 304.

These statements clearly teach that God's call is
conditional and therefore just as there was a
time of probation for the Jewish church, there is
a time of probation for the Adventist church.
That time has almost run out.

sky

rainbowinthesky · Sep 3, 2013

We are now living in the time of the second call of the
parable of Matt.22 as the 1888 message is again inviting
us to receive the righteousness of Christ by laying right
hold upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

The King's last invitation to the bidden ones of the
parable, the Advent people:

"You want to be like little children, hanging upon the
merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, and then you
will be fortified. How? The angels of God will be
around you as a wall of fire; the righteousness of
Christ will go before you and the glory of God will be
your rearward. God sanctify our tongues, our thoughts,
our minds, that we may dwell upon heavenly themes,
and that we may impart that knowledge to others."
E.G. White, Ms 9,1891.

"We have been at work on the law until we get as
dry as the hills of Gilboa, without dew or rain. Let us
trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May
God help us that our eyes may be anointed with
eyesalve that we may see." E.G. White, 1888 Material,
vol.2,557.

The dew and the rain represent the outpouring of the
Holy Spirit. The only way we can receive this gift that
cannot be excelled is by trusting wholly in the merits
of a crucified and risen Saviour.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we
appropriate the blessings of light and peace and
joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, vol.5,744.

This is the 1888 message in a nutshell and in
all its beautiful simplicity. It is the message for
this time and if it is resisted again and the bearers
of that message persecuted, the church will seal
her rejection of God's mercy and the call will be
extended to other people during the loud cry to
the world.

sky

rainbowinthesky · Sep 3, 2013

Earlier I made the statement that the
most powerful evidence that the second
coming of Christ had long been delayed
was because of our failure of accomplishing
the work that God had given us to do and
the evidence for that was the fact that we
were still here.

Now I would like to provide you with clear
evidence that Jesus should have returned
shortly after 1844:

"The history of Ancient Israel is a striking
illustration of the past experience of the
Adventist body; God led His people in the
advent movement, even as He led the
children of Israel from Egypt. In the great
disappointment their faith was tested as
was that of the Hebrews at the Red Sea.
Had they still trusted to the guiding hand
that had been with them in their past
experience, they would have seen the
salvation of God. If all who has labored
unitedly in the work in 1844, had received
the third angel's message and proclaimed
it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord
would have wrought mightily with their
efforts. A flood of light would have been
shed upon the world. Years ago the
inhabitants of the earth would have been
warned, the closing work completed, and
Christ would have come for the redemption
of His people." The Great Controversy,457-458.

These words are unmistakably clear. Jesus would
have returned shortly after 1844 if the advent
people had received the third angel's message and
proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit.
But they didn't. Why? The next paragraph
tells us why.

"It was not the will of God that Israel should
wander forty years in the wilderness; He
desired to lead them directly to the land of
Canaan and establish them there, a holy,
happy people. But 'they could not enter in
because of unbelief.' Heb.3:19. Because of
their backsliding and apostasy they perished
in the desert, and others were raised up to
enter the Promised Land. In like manner, it
was not the will of God that the coming of
Christ should be so long delayed and His
people should remain so many years in this
world of sin and sorrow. But unbelief separated
them from God. As they refused to do the work
which He had appointed them, others were
raised up to proclaim the message. In mercy
to the world, Jesus delays His coming, that
sinners may have an opportunity to hear the
warning and find in Him a shelter before the
wrath of God shall be poured out." Idem,458.

In 1901 the Lord sent this testimony:

"We may have to remain here in this world because
of insubordination many more years, as did the
children of Israel." Evangelism, 696.

It has been 112 years since this last testimony
was sent and we are still wandering in this
world of sin and sorrow. How much longer will
the Lord have to wait before we come into
working order with Him so that He may finish
the work upon the earth and cut it short in
righteousness? (Rom.9:28) Probation for the church
is about to close. Who among us will avail themselves
of the last invitation, to lay hold, day by day, upon
the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour that they
may be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness,
that God, through the Holy Spirit, may work in
them both to will and to do His good pleasure?

sky

rainbowinthesky · Sep 3, 2013

We are to grow in grace according to the
commandment, "Grow in grace and in the
knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ." 2 Peter 3:18.

How are we to grow in grace? By the same
power that causes the seed to grow and the
bud to turn into flower and the flower into fruit:

"The Lord puts His own Spirit into
the seed, causing it to spring into life.
Under His care the germ breaks through the
case enclosing it and springs up to develop
and bear fruit." Testimonies, Vol.8,326.

As we are told of the work that the Holy
Spirit does for the seed, we learn the
secret of growth in grace.

"As the dew and the rain are given first
to cause the seed to germinate, and then
to ripen the harvest, so the Holy Spirit
is given to carry forward, from one stage
to another, the process of spiritual growth.
The ripening of the grain represents the
completion of the work of God's grace in
the soul. By the power of the Holy Spirit
the moral image of God is to be perfected
in the character. We are to be wholly
transformed into the likeness of Christ."
T.M.506.

Now this:

"As the members of the body of Christ
approach the period of their last conflict,
'the time of Jacob's trouble,' they will
grow up into Christ, and will partake of
His Spirit. As the third angel's message
swells to a loud cry, and as great power
and glory attend the closing work, the
faithful people of God will partake of that
glory. It is the latter rain which revives and
strengthens them to pass through the time
of trouble. Their faces will shine with the
glory of that light which attends the third
angel." Testimonies, Vol.1,353.

And what must we do in order for the grace
of the Holy Spirit to cause the Seed of Christ
to spring into the heart and to develop and
bear fruit?

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His
merits we appropriate the blessings of
light and peace and joy in the Holy
Spirit." 5 T 744.

Hence we read, "There is salvation for
you but only through the merits of Jesus
Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has
been offered to you again and again." T.M.97.

This is our life business, to look to Jesus
and to trust in His merits. Unless we do this,
we cannot be saved, that is, we cannot advance
in spiritual grown from one stage to another
until Christ's character shall be fully formed within.

And "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly
reproduced in His people, He will come to claim them
as His own." C.O.L.69.

sky

rainbowinthesky · Sep 4, 2013

I will say one more thing. You are not a seventh-day Adventist, and you know it.

castaway
__________

And how do you know that I know it? Is it because you
know that I graduated from one of our Universities with
a degree in religion 32 years ago? Is it because you
know that I believe in Christ's second advent and in the
Sabbath and that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on
the 22nd of October,1844 to begin the Investigative
Judgment? Is it because you know that I believe in the
Spirit of Prophecy? Or is it because you know that I believe
the Spirit of Prophecy when it says that the church fell into the
Laodicean Condition in the 1850s? Is it because you know that
I believe the Spirit of Prophecy when it says that the church leaders
rejected the third angel's message of the merits and righteousness
of Christ between 1888 and 1901? Or is it because you know that I
believe the SoP when it says that God showed the leaders what they
should do and what they should not do in regard to organization but
that they departed from that light, chose to put God aside for the
devisings of men to maintain an order of things in which man is made
amenable to man?

sky
___________

It doesn't matter how may years one has "studied" or how many
followers you have lined up to "teach;" because in the end, you
started from the first post, an attack on the Adventist Church, and
you claim the right to say which of Ellen White's writings are "fabricated,
thus reducing them to uninspired, and if you took your shoes off for the
last few hundred posts you made here all I can say is you better get em
back on.

castaway
___________

I certainly don't remember my "first post" here to be an attack on the
Seventh-day Adventist church. And I do not claim the right to say which
of Ellen White's writings are inspired or not inspired but God has given
us a mind, even the mind of Christ, to help us distinguish between the
work of God and that of man. All of my life that I have been connected with
Seventh-day Adventism, I have had the highest regard for the Spirit of
Prophecy but I am not sure if you can say the same.

sky
____________

You will not allow us to question you, you will not give reference for
your most outrageous claims, and you cannot provide proof that you
are an Adventist in good standing with the church. Your posts show
otherwise. Maybe I will ask the church in your province if you are still
a member.

castaway
___________

What "outrageous claims" are you talking about? I made no claims
except to share from the Bible and the SoP what I have come to
understand after many years of searching. Do I not have the same
right as you do? What makes you think that you can come here and
lord it over those who disagree with your ideas? You say I cannot
provide proof that I am a Seventh-day Adventist. Did anyone here
ask you to provide proof that you are a Seventh-day Adventist? Who
is castaway57 anyway? Is this the Inquisition? May be we should ask
the church if you are a member in "good standing" as well? I don't know
anything about you anymore than you do about me. I don't have to prove
anything to you and you don't have to prove anything to me. This forum is
free from church interference.

sky
__________

All you appear to want here is a platform, so I guess you got it. But
we dont have to sit idly by while you continue to attack us and our
church and our beliefs, and allow the public to think that what you
accuse us of here is even half true.

castaway
____________

A platform for me but not for you? Just because I have a different
understanding of our history I am looking for a platform but you are
not? If we cannot candidly examine the arguments presented we
are not fit to teach. I have not attacked anyone or any church. When
I quote the SoP stating that the leaders of the church have put God
aside and accepted the devisings of men, is God "attacking" the
church? He is not attacking the church any more than I am.

The public has a right to know the truth about our history. The public
has a right to know that because of our unbelief the second coming
of Christ has been so long delayed. The public has a right to know
that the church leaders compromised the pillars of our faith in the
1950s when they held 18 conferences with the Evangelicals. The
public has a right to know the truth. When I joined the church in 1976
nobody told me about any of these things. It took me more than 20
years to find out by earnest and prayerful study.

sky
__________

You have provided tons of evidence for the following quote, so now
I can rest my case.

castaway
__________

What quote?

sky
______________

By the way, I still have membership with the church in Alberta,
Canada, where I took theology many years ago.

And I chose to reply to your allegations not so I can argue with
you but to let the readers see for themselves. I don't mind
disagreements but what I mind is this spirit of domination
that will not allow others to disagree or to hold different
views or understandings especially when there are so many
schools of thoughts today within Adventism.

sky

rainbowinthesky · Sep 4, 2013

All should keep the following in mind:

In The Great Controversy, page 293, there is mentioned "that great principle, the outgrowth of the New Testament, which acknowledges God as the SOLE JUDGE of human faith;" and then there follow these weighty and most pertinent words:

"The doctrine that God has committed to the church the right to control the conscience, and to define and punish heresy is one of the most deeply rooted of papal errors."

Castaway57 · Sep 4, 2013

rainbowinthesky said:
All should keep the following in mind:

In The Great Controversy, page 293, there is mentioned "that great principle, the outgrowth of the New Testament, which acknowledges God as the SOLE JUDGE of human faith;" and then there follow these weighty and most pertinent words:

"The doctrine that God has committed to the church the right to control the conscience, and to define and punish heresy is one of the most deeply rooted of papal errors."

rainbowinthesky · Sep 4, 2013

"I saw that the two-horned beast had a
dragon's mouth, and that his power was
in his head, and that the decree would
go out of his mouth. Then I saw the
Mother of Harlots; that the mother was
not the daughters, but separate and
distinct from them. She has had her day,
and it is past, and her daughters, the
Protestant sects, were the next to come
on the stage and act out the same mind
that the mother had when she persecuted
the saints. I saw that as the mother has
been declining in power, the daughters
had been growing, and soon they will
exercise the power once exercised by
the mother." {SpM 1.4}

The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

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