Hrairoo

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Some say that predicting the future is not what a Biblical prophet is about because a prophet is primarily a truth-speaker. Nevertheless, accurate prediction of the future seems to be what separates a real prophet from all the other opinions that are out there.

Jesus predicted His death at the hands of His enemies. He also predicted His Resurrection. While Jesus is far more than a prophet, this shows that He is at least a prophet.

Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah. He predicted that in time the Gentiles would come to understand the truth of monotheism, that there is only one God. At the time, that must have seemed more radical than predicting the Jewish Messiah.

Malachi predicted the ministry of John the Baptist when he said that Elijah would pave the way for the Messiah.



In contrast, what did Joseph Smith predict? He did die in Federal custody, but if he predicted his own death, I've never heard of it. Neither Joseph Smith nor any of his successors have given us any accurate predictions, whether warnings or otherwise.

My barometer for a prophet is consistency and an absence of hypocrisy. I don't expect these men to be perfect like Jesus. But if your list of mistakes include underage polygamy, misleading people about church history and translation, and excommunicating people for merely asking questions, there is a level of hypocrisy with certain laws of heaven, such as don't lie, protect the innocent, etc. There has been a concerted effort by the church leadership for over 100 years(I'd argue JS even participated in rewriting parts of his history to make it more palatable to converts) to cover up our origins. That doesn't speak to a God of truth, a God who is the same as he is today and yesterday. As representatives of God, I at least expect these men to not act shady, like they've got something to hide.

I don't know if I had been taught all that I'm learning now if I would still have had a testimony. But at least my faith would be in something real. For 33 years, I've had a testimony in something that never happened and that the leaders knew never happened the way they sold it to me. That is contrary to God and it's not an "oopsie! We're only human!" mistake.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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No, was not.
What Abraham had in his heart was a strong faith in God, as One unique God, though he dwelt/lived among a polytheistic generation, but he was monotheist, he was a believer, he believed exclusively in the Most High God, Creator of Heavens and earth, and all things. Abraham was a descendant of Noah, therefore, a descendant of God's seed, beginning from Seth, and he had knowledge and believed in God, and in His works, since the creation of all things.


Hebrews 11:v.8-22 and so on:
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

verse 6: - 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Warning, take in mind: Luke 18:v.8
8 Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Humm!

Romans 2
King James Version
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

IMHO, I think Gentile would apply to Abraham back in his time before the time of Moses.
I posted the text above where I think the idea comes from.

It is almost time for my bedtime, so good night when I sign off.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Some say that predicting the future is not what a Biblical prophet is about because a prophet is primarily a truth-speaker. Nevertheless, accurate prediction of the future seems to be what separates a real prophet from all the other opinions that are out there.

Jesus predicted His death at the hands of His enemies. He also predicted His Resurrection. While Jesus is far more than a prophet, this shows that He is at least a prophet.

Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah. He predicted that in time the Gentiles would come to understand the truth of monotheism, that there is only one God. At the time, that must have seemed more radical than predicting the Jewish Messiah.

Malachi predicted the ministry of John the Baptist when he said that Elijah would pave the way for the Messiah.



In contrast, what did Joseph Smith predict? He did die in Federal custody, but if he predicted his own death, I've never heard of it. Neither Joseph Smith nor any of his successors have given us any accurate predictions, whether warnings or otherwise.

What is your opinion of Hebrews 1 friend.
 
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Oseas

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2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

By the Word of God exposed above-the Word is God-we can see and understand the difference between human Judgment or rather earthly Judgment and God's Judgment or heavenly Jugdment, and the punishment of those that judge by the spirit o man.

Matt.12:v.36-37 - JESUS said:
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.
<---The Lord's Day -
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Paul Apostle wrote: What man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Cor.2:v.11

He that is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He that is of above is above all. John 3:31-36.

Now, even now, from now on, Judgment is given to the saints of the most High; the time came that the saints will possess the kingdom, and the Judgment shall sit, And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Dan.7:21-27

1Corinthians 6:v.1-3

1 - Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall Judge the world? and if the world shall be Judged by you, are ye unworthy to Judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall Judge angels? (angels of the churches) how much more things that pertain to this life?

JESUS left very very clear, saying: He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him in the last Day. <---This Day arrived.-
 
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Andrewn

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I don't know if I had been taught all that I'm learning now if I would still have had a testimony. But at least my faith would be in something real. For 33 years, I've had a testimony in something that never happened and that the leaders knew never happened the way they sold it to me.
The expression "had a testimony" is very interesting. What exactly does it mean for LDS?
 
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Hrairoo

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The expression "had a testimony" is very interesting. What exactly does it mean for LDS?
A testimony is a testament or declaration of faith. The LDS specifically refer to a general testimony as being
I know the church is true.
I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God.
I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet.
I know that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that He died for my sins.

It can be given of other things, like "I have a testimony in the Law of tithing" etc. But when people talk in general about "losing my testimony" or "strengthened my testimony" they are referring to "knowing" the things on that list above.

A testimony for LDS is validated by a visit from the Holy Ghost to confirm these truths. It is different for everyone but is said to come as a burning in the busom, a warmth and peace when a truth is confirmed. It's based on truth, allowing us to have the gift of discernment.

Which is why I am so mad at this cult. They taught me false things and framed things in a way to mislead me. So, when I said "I know" these things are true...it was based on things that didn't even happen or didn't happen the way I was taught that they did. Sometimes people just say they have a testimony just to fit in or get along until they get one. I actually had one and it was very strong. I had spiritual experiences when I prayed. I felt the Lord in my life. I was zealous in my study. So, to find out that these things I thought I knew were not true...it made the Spirit who'd given me confirmation suspect.

It almost destroyed my faith in anything divine.
 
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He is the way

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A testimony is a testament or declaration of faith. The LDS specifically refer to a general testimony as being
I know the church is true.
I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God.
I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet.
I know that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that He died for my sins.

It can be given of other things, like "I have a testimony in the Law of tithing" etc. But when people talk in general about "losing my testimony" or "strengthened my testimony" they are referring to "knowing" the things on that list above.

A testimony for LDS is validated by a visit from the Holy Ghost to confirm these truths. It is different for everyone but is said to come as a burning in the busom, a warmth and peace when a truth is confirmed. It's based on truth, allowing us to have the gift of discernment.

Which is why I am so mad at this cult. They taught me false things and framed things in a way to mislead me. So, when I said "I know" these things are true...it was based on things that didn't even happen or didn't happen the way I was taught that they did. Sometimes people just say they have a testimony just to fit in or get along until they get one. I actually had one and it was very strong. I had spiritual experiences when I prayed. I felt the Lord in my life. I was zealous in my study. So, to find out that these things I thought I knew were not true...it made the Spirit who'd given me confirmation suspect.

It almost destroyed my faith in anything divine.
People have left The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints for many reasons. People left the LDS Church when the Salamander letter came out. Later that was shown to be a hoax, but there are things that continue to test our faith. Joseph Smith said that when he and others had seen visions soon afterwards they were led to doubt what they had seen. I believe that eventually new evidence will prove that the Book of Mormon is true. I have a very strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. As more information has been found out by church leaders about the translation of the Book of Mormon, they have shared that information and not held back what they have found:

New Church Video Explains Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones
Nothing will ever change my love for and faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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By the Word of God exposed above-the Word is God-we can see and understand the difference between human Judgment or rather earthly Judgment and God's Judgment or heavenly Jugdment, and the punishment of those that judge by the spirit o man.

Matt.12:v.36-37 - JESUS said:
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.
<---The Lord's Day -
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Paul Apostle wrote: What man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Cor.2:v.11

He that is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He that is of above is above all. John 3:31-36.

Now, even now, from now on, Judgment is given to the saints of the most High; the time came that the saints will possess the kingdom, and the Judgment shall sit, And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Dan.7:21-27

1Corinthians 6:v.1-3

1 - Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall Judge the world? and if the world shall be Judged by you, are ye unworthy to Judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall Judge angels? (angels of the churches) how much more things that pertain to this life?

JESUS left very very clear, saying: He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him in the last Day. <---This Day arrived.-

Huh, I don't see where you are going ....
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Why is Hebrews One relevant to the topic?

Good Question Dale.

Hebrews 1:1-2
Easy-to-Read Version

God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things.

English Standard Version
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Berean Study Bible
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Berean Literal Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

New American Standard Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

New King James Version
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

King James Bible
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christian Standard Bible
In these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son. God has appointed him heir of all things and made the universe through him.

Good News Translation
but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him.

International Standard Version
has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.

NET Bible
in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.

New Heart English Bible
in these last days has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the ages.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained The Heir of all things, and by him he made the universe.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.

New American Standard 1977
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

King James 2000 Bible
Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

American King James Version
Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

American Standard Version
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his'son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Darby Bible Translation
at the end of these days has spoken to us in [the person of the] Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

English Revised Version
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Webster's Bible Translation
Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Weymouth New Testament
has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.

World English Bible
has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

Young's Literal Translation
in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Jesus is the final Revelation of God based on verse 2. There would not be any future revelations on the level of Scripture aka The Bible.
 
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He is the way

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Good Question Dale.

Hebrews 1:1-2
Easy-to-Read Version

God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things.

English Standard Version
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Berean Study Bible
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Berean Literal Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

New American Standard Bible
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

New King James Version
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

King James Bible
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christian Standard Bible
In these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son. God has appointed him heir of all things and made the universe through him.

Good News Translation
but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him.

International Standard Version
has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.

NET Bible
in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.

New Heart English Bible
in these last days has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the ages.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And in these last days he has spoken with us by his Son, whom he ordained The Heir of all things, and by him he made the universe.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.

New American Standard 1977
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

King James 2000 Bible
Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

American King James Version
Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

American Standard Version
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his'son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Darby Bible Translation
at the end of these days has spoken to us in [the person of the] Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

English Revised Version
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Webster's Bible Translation
Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Weymouth New Testament
has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.

World English Bible
has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

Young's Literal Translation
in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Jesus is the final Revelation of God based on verse 2. There would not be any future revelations on the level of Scripture aka The Bible.

So why will there be more prophets?:

(New Testament | Revelation 11:3 - 11)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Jesus is the Final prophet who gives us books to read. Hebrews 1
The last book of the NT is about end times just before his return.
Those prophets are not giving us books to read.
In short, the role of those prophets is warning people.
Jesus did not write books, his apostles wrote books based on being inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the final revelation himself that is written about.
 
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He is the way

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Jesus is the Final prophet who gives us books to read. Hebrews 1
The last book of the NT is about end times just before his return.
Those prophets are not giving us books to read.
In short, the role of those prophets is warning people.
Jesus did not write books, his apostles wrote books based on being inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the final revelation himself that is written about.
(New Testament | Matthew 5:17)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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(New Testament | Matthew 5:17)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Based on the Dispensational view, apostles and prophets died out with the death of the last apostle. I do not remember their proof texts.
 
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He is the way

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Based on the Dispensational view, apostles and prophets died out with the death of the last apostle. I do not remember their proof texts.
Yes there was an apostasy. That being said the Bible states there will be more prophets:

(New Testament | Revelation 11:10 - 12)

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 
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Leaf473

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This is a double pronged discussion, because, of course, I'm looking for an explanation from someone LDS. But regarding the second prong dealing with my humility, I don't mind anyone responding.

So, I am troubled by the notion of prophets and general authorities being excused for now disavowed doctrine, like polygamy and the ban of the priesthood for black men, because they are supposedly not perfect and make mistakes, just like anyone. We are told directly that those who might lead us astray are removed from their post before they have a chance to do so.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Okay, what about black men and the priesthood? What about the doctrine of the curse of black skin on those who are wicked? Is that really the mind of God? Why change it then? And if it is merely a matter of innocence versus deliberate nefarious motives, then how is an LDS prophet any different than a minister from any other Christian religion? If an LDS prophet means well and has a will to serve God, but mistakenly preaches doctrine that is contrary to the will of the Lord, what is the point of having him? Prophet isn't a fancy word for preacher; it means something specific. And if I cannot trust a prophet or apostle to lead me in 100% the ways of the Lord with everything he says(because he speaks for the Lord, right?), then why not be a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic? They're all leading by their own methods of inspiration and a desire to serve Christ, no?

One big issue I have is with humility. Because I believe in it. I believe it is good to be humble and gracious(as opposed to arrogant and selfish). While in the church, I believed in the concept of us being Hands of the Lord, that if we were humble enough to be led, He would direct our doings in this life(through opportunities and the impressions of other people) to the path we needed to walk for our greatest growth and service and that of others. I also believe, it is okay not to have 100% of the answers or the full picture beforehand. Sometimes you don't understand at the current moment "why" but later in life, you look back at the picture and things suddenly make sense. I was right where I was supposed to be and He knew the whole time.

So, in addition to struggling with the imperfection of church leaders ultimately equating to their unworthiness to lead others to righteousness, I also struggle with doubts about the concept of obedience and humility. It is a real issue to try and understand what I want from piety and reconciling my own God-given intellect and right to judge on moral grounds. Am I being led astray by my own pride? Do I want all of the answers(why polygamy then not polygamy? Why racist priesthood doctrine? Why seer stone yet gold plates?)? Or is it okay for me to demand moral consistency from an Almighty?

I apologize if this is not he right place to go for this discussion. Ex-Mormon forums have rules against preaching/theistic talk and LDS forums don't allow debate or any negativity about the church or its leaders. I am alone and conflicted and I need to talk these things out.
Fascinating question!

(I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so apologies if this has been covered already.)

This passage came to mind
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

What do we do today when we see a person in God's organization
-whatever one perceives that to be-
who is not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Good News,
leading others in hypocrisy,
or compelling the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

One cannot say that it would never happen, it already has. Imo, then, God does not prevent this situation from arising.

My feeling is that it is not right to follow a church leader or a true prophet who is not walking according to the truth, etc.

I don't think that's a lack of humility, I think it's a desire to do the right thing. Imo.
 
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dzheremi

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Which is why I am so mad at this cult. They taught me false things and framed things in a way to mislead me. So, when I said "I know" these things are true...it was based on things that didn't even happen or didn't happen the way I was taught that they did. Sometimes people just say they have a testimony just to fit in or get along until they get one. I actually had one and it was very strong. I had spiritual experiences when I prayed. I felt the Lord in my life. I was zealous in my study. So, to find out that these things I thought I knew were not true...it made the Spirit who'd given me confirmation suspect.

It almost destroyed my faith in anything divine.

This is a very important point. Heresies like Mormonism are not dangerous or bad just because they're theologically wrong in some sort of detached, academic/intellectual sense -- they have actual deleterious effects on the peoples' conception of God and their ability to have faith in God. They really do damage people's faith, often fatally.
 
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