LDS The Infallibility of the Prophets

[Hrairoo]

This is a double pronged discussion, because, of course, I'm looking for an explanation from someone LDS. But regarding the second prong dealing with my humility, I don't mind anyone responding.

So, I am troubled by the notion of prophets and general authorities being excused for now disavowed doctrine, like polygamy and the ban of the priesthood for black men, because they are supposedly not perfect and make mistakes, just like anyone. We are told directly that those who might lead us astray are removed from their post before they have a chance to do so.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Okay, what about black men and the priesthood? What about the doctrine of the curse of black skin on those who are wicked? Is that really the mind of God? Why change it then? And if it is merely a matter of innocence versus deliberate nefarious motives, then how is an LDS prophet any different than a minister from any other Christian religion? If an LDS prophet means well and has a will to serve God, but mistakenly preaches doctrine that is contrary to the will of the Lord, what is the point of having him? Prophet isn't a fancy word for preacher; it means something specific. And if I cannot trust a prophet or apostle to lead me in 100% the ways of the Lord with everything he says(because he speaks for the Lord, right?), then why not be a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic? They're all leading by their own methods of inspiration and a desire to serve Christ, no?

One big issue I have is with humility. Because I believe in it. I believe it is good to be humble and gracious(as opposed to arrogant and selfish). While in the church, I believed in the concept of us being Hands of the Lord, that if we were humble enough to be led, He would direct our doings in this life(through opportunities and the impressions of other people) to the path we needed to walk for our greatest growth and service and that of others. I also believe, it is okay not to have 100% of the answers or the full picture beforehand. Sometimes you don't understand at the current moment "why" but later in life, you look back at the picture and things suddenly make sense. I was right where I was supposed to be and He knew the whole time.

So, in addition to struggling with the imperfection of church leaders ultimately equating to their unworthiness to lead others to righteousness, I also struggle with doubts about the concept of obedience and humility. It is a real issue to try and understand what I want from piety and reconciling my own God-given intellect and right to judge on moral grounds. Am I being led astray by my own pride? Do I want all of the answers(why polygamy then not polygamy? Why racist priesthood doctrine? Why seer stone yet gold plates?)? Or is it okay for me to demand moral consistency from an Almighty?

I apologize if this is not he right place to go for this discussion. Ex-Mormon forums have rules against preaching/theistic talk and LDS forums don't allow debate or any negativity about the church or its leaders. I am alone and conflicted and I need to talk these things out.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a double pronged discussion, because, of course, I'm looking for an explanation from someone LDS. But regarding the second prong dealing with my humility, I don't mind anyone responding.

So, I am troubled by the notion of prophets and general authorities being excused for now disavowed doctrine, like polygamy and the ban of the priesthood for black men, because they are supposedly not perfect and make mistakes, just like anyone. We are told directly that those who might lead us astray are removed from their post before they have a chance to do so.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Okay, what about black men and the priesthood? What about the doctrine of the curse of black skin on those who are wicked? Is that really the mind of God? Why change it then? And if it is merely a matter of innocence versus deliberate nefarious motives, then how is an LDS prophet any different than a minister from any other Christian religion? If an LDS prophet means well and has a will to serve God, but mistakenly preaches doctrine that is contrary to the will of the Lord, what is the point of having him? Prophet isn't a fancy word for preacher; it means something specific. And if I cannot trust a prophet or apostle to lead me in 100% the ways of the Lord with everything he says(because he speaks for the Lord, right?), then why not be a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic? They're all leading by their own methods of inspiration and a desire to serve Christ, no?

One big issue I have is with humility. Because I believe in it. I believe it is good to be humble and gracious(as opposed to arrogant and selfish). While in the church, I believed in the concept of us being Hands of the Lord, that if we were humble enough to be led, He would direct our doings in this life(through opportunities and the impressions of other people) to the path we needed to walk for our greatest growth and service and that of others. I also believe, it is okay not to have 100% of the answers or the full picture beforehand. Sometimes you don't understand at the current moment "why" but later in life, you look back at the picture and things suddenly make sense. I was right where I was supposed to be and He knew the whole time.

So, in addition to struggling with the imperfection of church leaders ultimately equating to their unworthiness to lead others to righteousness, I also struggle with doubts about the concept of obedience and humility. It is a real issue to try and understand what I want from piety and reconciling my own God-given intellect and right to judge on moral grounds. Am I being led astray by my own pride? Do I want all of the answers(why polygamy then not polygamy? Why racist priesthood doctrine? Why seer stone yet gold plates?)? Or is it okay for me to demand moral consistency from an Almighty?

I apologize if this is not he right place to go for this discussion. Ex-Mormon forums have rules against preaching/theistic talk and LDS forums don't allow debate or any negativity about the church or its leaders. I am alone and conflicted and I need to talk these things out.

hi and welcome to the forum.

I am SDA - we are Christian, trinitarian, 66 books of the Bible, saved by grace through faith etc ... doctrine based on sola scriptura testing... but we also have a prophet who as a teen started to see visions the same year that Joseph Smith died. her writings are not even remotely like Smiths.

For example take a look at this commentary on the life of Christ - The Desire of Ages — Ellen G. White Writings -- you will see what I mean... it reads nothing at all like Joseph Smith's work.

She lived until the early 1900's and wrote tons and tons of material - dreams and visions from God on just about every topic known to mankind.

But we have the same model for how a prophet is to be tested - as you find in the Bible. If a prophet claims that a certain doctrine or teaching has come from God - and that doctrine is proven to be against the Bible - they are a false prophet and not "a mistaken person".

But if a pastor preaches some doctrine and it turns out to be opposed to the Bible - the pastor is "mistaken" ... is teaching false doctrine and need to repent which some pastors on earth do from time to time.

It is much more serious to be a prophet claiming God came to you and personally told you some spiritual truth is fact... then to be shown that this was 100% against the bible. The Bible does not allow for people to accept that sort of thing as "normal for good prophets". Rather it is a sign of someone who is probably not even saved. Be careful when dealing with such things.

 

[He is the way]

hi and welcome to the forum.

I am SDA - we are Christian, trinitarian, 66 books of the Bible, saved by grace through faith etc ... doctrine based on sola scriptura testing... but we also have a prophet who as a teen started to see visions the same year that Joseph Smith died. her writings are not even remotely like Smiths.

For example take a look at this commentary on the life of Christ - The Desire of Ages — Ellen G. White Writings -- you will see what I mean... it reads nothing at all like Joseph Smith's work.

She lived until the early 1900's and wrote tons and tons of material - dreams and visions from God on just about every topic known to mankind.

But we have the same model for how a prophet is to be tested - as you find in the Bible. If a prophet claims that a certain doctrine or teaching has come from God - and that doctrine is proven to be against the Bible - they are a false prophet and not "a mistaken person".

But if a pastor preaches some doctrine and it turns out to be opposed to the Bible - the pastor is "mistaken" ... is teaching false doctrine and need to repent which some pastors on earth do from time to time.

It is much more serious to be a prophet claiming God came to you and personally told you some spiritual truth is fact... then to be shown that this was 100% against the bible. The Bible does not allow for people to accept that sort of thing as "normal for good prophets". Rather it is a sign of someone who is probably not even saved. Be careful when dealing with such things.

This I like:

"Those on the left hand of Christ, those who had neglected Him in the person of the poor and the suffering, were unconscious of their guilt. Satan had blinded them; they had not perceived what they owed to their brethren. They had been self-absorbed, and cared not for others’ needs. DA 639.3

To the rich, God has given wealth that they may relieve and comfort His suffering children; but too often they are indifferent to the wants of others. They feel themselves superior to their poor brethren. They do not put themselves in the poor man's place. They do not understand the temptations and struggles of the poor, and mercy dies out of their hearts. In costly dwellings and splendid churches, the rich shut themselves away from the poor; the means that God has given to bless the needy is spent in pampering pride and selfishness. The poor are robbed daily of the education they should have concerning the tender mercies of God; for He has made ample provision that they should be comforted with the necessities of life. They are compelled to feel the poverty that narrows life, and are often tempted to become envious, jealous, and full of evil surmisings. Those who themselves have not endured the pressure of want too often treat the poor in a contemptuous way, and make them feel that they are looked upon as paupers. DA 639.4

But Christ beholds it all, and He says, It was I who was hungry and thirsty. It was I who was a stranger. It was I who was sick. It was I who was in prison. While you were feasting at your bountifully spread table, I was famishing in the hovel or the empty street. While you were at ease in your luxurious home, I had not where to lay My head. While you crowded your wardrobe with rich apparel, I was destitute. While you pursued your pleasures, I languished in prison. DA 639.5

When you doled out the pittance of bread to the starving poor, when you gave those flimsy garments to shield them from the biting frost, did you remember that you were giving to the Lord of glory? All the days of your life I was near you in the person of these afflicted ones, but you did not seek Me. You would not enter into fellowship with Me. I know you not.:

From: The Desire of Ages

 

[He is the way]

This is a double pronged discussion, because, of course, I'm looking for an explanation from someone LDS. But regarding the second prong dealing with my humility, I don't mind anyone responding.

So, I am troubled by the notion of prophets and general authorities being excused for now disavowed doctrine, like polygamy and the ban of the priesthood for black men, because they are supposedly not perfect and make mistakes, just like anyone. We are told directly that those who might lead us astray are removed from their post before they have a chance to do so.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Okay, what about black men and the priesthood? What about the doctrine of the curse of black skin on those who are wicked? Is that really the mind of God? Why change it then? And if it is merely a matter of innocence versus deliberate nefarious motives, then how is an LDS prophet any different than a minister from any other Christian religion? If an LDS prophet means well and has a will to serve God, but mistakenly preaches doctrine that is contrary to the will of the Lord, what is the point of having him? Prophet isn't a fancy word for preacher; it means something specific. And if I cannot trust a prophet or apostle to lead me in 100% the ways of the Lord with everything he says(because he speaks for the Lord, right?), then why not be a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic? They're all leading by their own methods of inspiration and a desire to serve Christ, no?

One big issue I have is with humility. Because I believe in it. I believe it is good to be humble and gracious(as opposed to arrogant and selfish). While in the church, I believed in the concept of us being Hands of the Lord, that if we were humble enough to be led, He would direct our doings in this life(through opportunities and the impressions of other people) to the path we needed to walk for our greatest growth and service and that of others. I also believe, it is okay not to have 100% of the answers or the full picture beforehand. Sometimes you don't understand at the current moment "why" but later in life, you look back at the picture and things suddenly make sense. I was right where I was supposed to be and He knew the whole time.

So, in addition to struggling with the imperfection of church leaders ultimately equating to their unworthiness to lead others to righteousness, I also struggle with doubts about the concept of obedience and humility. It is a real issue to try and understand what I want from piety and reconciling my own God-given intellect and right to judge on moral grounds. Am I being led astray by my own pride? Do I want all of the answers(why polygamy then not polygamy? Why racist priesthood doctrine? Why seer stone yet gold plates?)? Or is it okay for me to demand moral consistency from an Almighty?

I apologize if this is not he right place to go for this discussion. Ex-Mormon forums have rules against preaching/theistic talk and LDS forums don't allow debate or any negativity about the church or its leaders. I am alone and conflicted and I need to talk these things out.

God ordained polygamy for a time.

 

[BobRyan]

God ordained polygamy for a time.

well the book of Mormon claims that due to the great sin and abomination of polygamy God lead some tribes/group of Israel out of their land and to the Americas. So I don't see the flexibility for polygamy in the book of Mormon that a Mormon would need to argue that God "ordained polygamy".

Christ said one man and one wife in Matt 5. NT writers say this is a strict rule for church leaders at any level - and God did not make Eve, Melody and Wendy for Adam... just Eve.

 

[BobRyan]

This I like:

"Those on the left hand of Christ, those who had neglected Him in the person of the poor and the suffering, were unconscious of their guilt. Satan had blinded them; they had not perceived what they owed to their brethren. They had been self-absorbed, and cared not for others’ needs. DA 639.3

To the rich, God has given wealth that they may relieve and comfort His suffering children; but too often they are indifferent to the wants of others. They feel themselves superior to their poor brethren. They do not put themselves in the poor man's place. They do not understand the temptations and struggles of the poor, and mercy dies out of their hearts. In costly dwellings and splendid churches, the rich shut themselves away from the poor; the means that God has given to bless the needy is spent in pampering pride and selfishness. The poor are robbed daily of the education they should have concerning the tender mercies of God; for He has made ample provision that they should be comforted with the necessities of life. They are compelled to feel the poverty that narrows life, and are often tempted to become envious, jealous, and full of evil surmisings. Those who themselves have not endured the pressure of want too often treat the poor in a contemptuous way, and make them feel that they are looked upon as paupers. DA 639.4

But Christ beholds it all, and He says, It was I who was hungry and thirsty. It was I who was a stranger. It was I who was sick. It was I who was in prison. While you were feasting at your bountifully spread table, I was famishing in the hovel or the empty street. While you were at ease in your luxurious home, I had not where to lay My head. While you crowded your wardrobe with rich apparel, I was destitute. While you pursued your pleasures, I languished in prison. DA 639.5

When you doled out the pittance of bread to the starving poor, when you gave those flimsy garments to shield them from the biting frost, did you remember that you were giving to the Lord of glory? All the days of your life I was near you in the person of these afflicted ones, but you did not seek Me. You would not enter into fellowship with Me. I know you not.:

From: The Desire of Ages

Amen! And there is a lot of material in that commentary on the life of Christ that is of that form

 

[He is the way]

well the book of Mormon claims that due to the great sin and abomination of polygamy God lead some tribes/group of Israel out of their land and to the Americas. So I don't see the flexibility for polygamy in the book of Mormon that a Mormon would need to argue that God "ordained polygamy".

Christ said one man and one wife in Matt 5. NT writers say this is a strict rule for church leaders at any level - and God did not make Eve, Melody and Wendy for Adam... just Eve.

God ordained polygamy at certain times. Abraham, Solomon, Jacob, and David were all polygamists. Does anyone believe that God condemns people who remarry? Polygamy is not allowed at this time, but may eventually come back:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 4:1)

1 AND in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

I believe that polygamy was used to test those God loved to see if they would do all that God commanded them to do. I know that one of Joseph Smith's wives was given confirmation by God that she was to be sealed to him.

 

[BobRyan]

God ordained polygamy at certain times. Abraham, Solomon, Jacob, and David were all polygamists.

Abraham lied about his wife, Solomon lead Israel into idolatry, David committed adultery.. God did not "ordain" any of that.

 

[He is the way]

Amen! And there is a lot of material in that commentary on the life of Christ that is of that form

Is there anything there contrary to our beliefs other than Sunday worship?

 

[He is the way]

Abraham lied about his wife, Solomon lead Israel into idolatry, David committed adultery.. God did not "ordain" any of that.

Abraham did not lie about his wife, that being said God did not ordain David's adultery or Solomon's misconduct.

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham did not lie about his wife, that being said

yes he did -

Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the Negev, and settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.”

4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What have you encountered, that you have done this thing?” 11 Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.

Even the pagans knew it was wrong - and God Himself sided with the pagans - saying that this was evil. I think we can "figure this one out"

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham did not lie about his wife, that being said God did not ordain David's adultery or Solomon's misconduct.

And He did not ordain that they should have multiple wives.. God's command was that kings were not to have multiple wives. Deut 17:17 especially kings.


BoM Jacob 2:
Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.


[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

========================

Question: How could Joseph Smith have written that polygammy was such a great abomination in Jacob 2 -- yet promote it himself?

Answer: Joseph Smith did not write Jacob 2... Samuel Spalding did - Spalding was a Baptist in the late 1700's and almost the entire BoM book is from his manuscript intended as a sort of "American Pilgrim's Progress" fiction. So not too surprising that it has so many Baptist ideas in it.

 

[BobRyan]

Question for HE IS THE WAY - the two posts I just gave here - I have also given to you before... these are not new facts.. this is common knowledge. So my question for you is this - do the points in those two posts show up in LDS internal discussion boards? Or is this "left as a surprise" for LDS members to find out when they have discussions with non-Mormons.

I actually am curious about this ..

I ask because the responses I get from this - are as if LDS members never read it before... how can that be??

 

[Hrairoo]

Question for HE IS THE WAY - the two posts I just gave here - I have also given to you before... these are not new facts.. this is common knowledge. So my question for you is this - do the points in those two posts show up in LDS internal discussion boards? Or is this "left as a surprise" for LDS members to find out when they have discussions with non-Mormons.

I actually am curious about this ..

I ask because the responses I get from this - are as if LDS members never read it before... how can that be??

I don't mean to jump in here since you didn't ask me and I am not a supporter of LDS doctrine at all. But as someone who grew up mormon and practiced for 33 years, I have some perspective.

The logic has to do with the authority of the prophets given by God. That's why you can argue what the Bible says all day and it slides like water off a duck's back for Mormons. I was always taught that anything the current living prophet says is current doctrine and supersedes any previous contradicting doctrine or scripture. The prophet is the word of God in the here and now, what the Lord wants to tell us right now. So, sure, even BoM scriptures might say "don't do this" but that was God's counsel for those people at that time, you see. It is why Mormon doctrine isn't found in the BoM but actually resides in the Doctrine and Covenants. And also, why they can say polygamy is part of the bigger picture plan but they no longer practice it; current prophets have said not to practice it.

Have you not heard, "yesterday's prophets are today's heretics"?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't mean to jump in here since you didn't ask me and I am not a supporter of LDS doctrine at all. But as someone who grew up mormon and practiced for 33 years, I have some perspective.

The logic has to do with the authority of the prophets given by God. That's why you can argue what the Bible says all day and it slides like water off a duck's back for Mormons. I was always taught that anything the current living prophet says is current doctrine and supersedes any previous contradicting doctrine or scripture. The prophet is the word of God in the here and now, what the Lord wants to tell us right now. So, sure, even BoM scriptures might say "don't do this" but that was God's counsel for those people at that time, you see. It is why Mormon doctrine isn't found in the BoM but actually resides in the Doctrine and Covenants. And also, why they can say polygamy is part of the bigger picture plan but they no longer practice it; current prophets have said not to practice it.

Have you not heard, "yesterday's prophets are today's heretics"?

Thank you for sharing that!

That is interesting and of course this is your thread so you can jump into any exchange we are in fact having it with you as the primary context.

BTW the explanation you have given does explain a lot about the reaction we seem to be getting. However I will add that this is one of the reasons I like to point out the SDAs also have a prophet - one who wrote much more than Joseph Smith and nothing in our doctrine or in those writings says "ignore old prophets -- new ones are free to contradict them" -- rather we have 1 John 4:1-5 do NOT believe everyone that comes along but TEST them to see IF they are of God - and what is that test?

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF the things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" -- in other words - contradicting scripture was "PROOF" that the claimed prophet was a false prophet - according to Paul.

In Galatians 1:6-9 Paul said "IF WE (apostles) OR an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN should come to you with a different Gospel let him be accursed!!"

As you have pointed out -- that is the exact opposite model from what many Mormons are using.

 

[Hrairoo]

Full disclosure, I only learned of the many offshoots of the original church established by Joseph Smith after I started researching LDS history. I was only ever taught that there was one while I was a Mormon: FLDS or the Church of Christ. And then, it wasn't to remark upon anything other than the fact they still practice polygamy in contrast to the TRUE church, which no longer does. I was a part of the Brighamites brand, the corporate Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. So, honestly, I have no clue about the other Mormons or how they practice. I do know that the Brighamite brand doesn't refer to just Joseph Smith or just Brigham Young; the current prophet of that church is Russell M. Nelson. So, if he makes changes or if he says something that is not in the Bible, it doesn't matter. He is the one with the authority to tell the Mormons what to do and what God wants.

the way that I was taught to deal with contradictions in the doctrine was to refer to prophets words in the past 30 years(with the current living one being the last and final say). Or just fall back on the old standby: the Bible has been through many hands and sometimes isn't translated correctly. Before I left, the emphasis in scripture study and lessons was to rely on strictly Mormon scripture and not so much the Bible because of it's untrustworthiness.

So, barring the fact that Mormons is actually a bigger umbrella and the sects don't all agree, the answer to your question is: 1. Current and modern prophets first and 2. The Bible is just plain wrong sometimes. You thought Mormons weren't really Christians? You have no idea.

 

[He is the way]

yes he did -

Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the Negev, and settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.”

4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What have you encountered, that you have done this thing?” 11 Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.

Even the pagans knew it was wrong - and God Himself sided with the pagans - saying that this was evil. I think we can "figure this one out"

Abraham's wife was his sister, he didn't lie:

(Old Testament | Genesis 20:11 - 13)

11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

God did not lie either when He said:

(Old Testament | Genesis 26:5)

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[He is the way]

And He did not ordain that they should have multiple wives.. God's command was that kings were not to have multiple wives. Deut 17:17 especially kings.


BoM Jacob 2:
Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.


[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

========================

Question: How could Joseph Smith have written that polygammy was such a great abomination in Jacob 2 -- yet promote it himself?

Answer: Joseph Smith did not write Jacob 2... Samuel Spalding did - Spalding was a Baptist in the late 1700's and almost the entire BoM book is from his manuscript intended as a sort of "American Pilgrim's Progress" fiction. So not too surprising that it has so many Baptist ideas in it.

Samuel Spalding's writings are NOTHING like the Book of Mormon. His manuscript had NOTHING to do with the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith had NO written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon. He only used the golden plates when he translated the Book of Lehi which was lost.

 

[He is the way]

Question for HE IS THE WAY - the two posts I just gave here - I have also given to you before... these are not new facts.. this is common knowledge. So my question for you is this - do the points in those two posts show up in LDS internal discussion boards? Or is this "left as a surprise" for LDS members to find out when they have discussions with non-Mormons.

I actually am curious about this ..

I ask because the responses I get from this - are as if LDS members never read it before... how can that be??

I can't speak for other members, but I have been over this several times.

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham did not lie about his wife, that being said

yes he did -

Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the Negev, and settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.”

4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What have you encountered, that you have done this thing?” 11 Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.

Even the pagans knew it was wrong - and God Himself sided with the pagans - saying that this was evil. I think we can "figure this one out"

Abraham's wife was his sister, he didn't lie:

In the "actual text" God gives the pagan king Abimelech a pass - because he was right in claiming that Abraham lied to him. And even in vs 11 above Abraham stops referring to Sarah as "my sister" and fesses up to "My wife".

This may look like "telling the truth" to you -- but God agrees with Abimelech when he points out he was deceived by Abraham.

The point remains.