The Inevitable "Who/What is the Devil" thread

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Flip side of the nature of Christ thread.

Post what you believe about the devil here. Symbolic personification of evil? Literal "person" or entity? Created bad by God for His purposes? Created good by God but turned bad somewhere along the line? Or did He come from somewhere else, not from God, somehow? Would Satan be an appropriate name for him? Would Lucifer be one of his names? Why or why not?

Post whatever you believe about Lucifer, Satan, the Devil here -- and if you bes game you can discuss other names of evil found in scripture and to whom/what they refer as well, whether Abaddon/Apollyon, Leviathan, or Beelzebub or others....

Again please share whatever scriptures you can to substantiate your views or if you don't have specific scriptures in mind, explore the logic and reasoning that goes into your position so others can see how you arrive at it.

Be respectful toward others as we all probably have areas where we differ on this subject.

 

[TommyH]

As an ex-adventist I assume it is appropriate for me to comment here, although I am by no stretch of the imagination remotely adventist now.
anyway here goes my opinion...
If you think logically about Christianity as a belief system then the devil is an absolutely necessary character. After all without a definition for evil (the devil) there is no defining characteristic for god.
In other words if the devil did not exist then god would have no purpose. After he (god) created us, what would be left for him to do?

 

[moicherie]

I believe in the present Adventist interpretation of evil and the existence of Satan or a devil.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I believe in the present Adventist interpretation of evil and the existence of Satan or a devil.

Which would be what, exactly?
If you don't feel like typing a thesis can you point to a link online which sums it up? It bes thinksy you refer to the standard story about Lucifer rebelling in heaven, etc. Would that include the additional ideas contributed by Ellen White on that story?

 

[moicherie]

Which would be what, exactly?
If you don't feel like typing a thesis can you point to a link online which sums it up? It bes thinksy you refer to the standard story about Lucifer rebelling in heaven, etc. Would that include the additional ideas contributed by Ellen White on that story?

Sorry no I don't feel like posting a thesis and have no idea where to find an online link that sums it up. I don't know EGW additional ideas for I have not read them in their entirety.

 

[Telaquapacky]

Moriah,
The Adventist mythology about Lucifer, a.k.a Satan can be found in Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 1, entitled "Why Was Sin Permitted?" Here's a link (you'll have to do a little navagating):

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default

I personally believe that Lucifer-Satan is a real person, and that He is the most powerful and intelligent (in terms of raw brain power, fact knowledge and strategy- not necessarily wisdom) created being, a fallen angel. The mythology, though maybe not true in every detail, gives a plausible scenario.

I don't have much curiosity about the guy. We're not as close as we used to be

 

[StormyOne]

how do we know Lucifer or Satan (they may not be the same) is the most powerful created being? That would mean that there are no other fallen beings in God's vast creation..... do we really know that?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Stormy, how does Lucifer/Satan (or whatever name one wants to give to the FirstFallen) being or not being the most powerful created being indicate that there bes no other fallen beings? -- That seems a non-sequitur (sp?) to this one; how do you derive that conclusion from that premise?

 

[Telaquapacky]

One reason Lucifer being the most powerful (brain and brawn) of all created beings makes sense to me is that it fits what I have heard and observed about him. I heard Anton LaVey, author of the Satanic Bible, on a talk show, say that whereas God has ten commandments, Satan has only one, "Do what thou wilt." I think this is Lucifer's bid to become king of the universe. Think about it. Who always comes out on top where there is no law? Where there is no law, the meanest, toughest, strongest, smartest one comes out on top. Why would Lucifer advocate a lawless universe, "Do what you will," if he thought there was anyone stronger or smarter than him? He evidently underestimated God, thinking that if God's law were discarded, that would be the end of God's rulership of the universe- and in a lawless system, Lucifer, the meanest, toughest, strongest one would rise to the top. Laws only exist to protect the weak from the strong. The strong do not need anyone to protect them. That's one reason why Jesus said, "The meek shall inherit the earth."

(as a sideline, that's why I consider unregulated, unrestrained free-market capitalism a satanic system, because it guarantees that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Think about it. In that situation, the meanest, the greediest, and those with the greatest capital can gain more through leverage, and those with the least capital find themselves more and more under the control of the landlords, bosses, owners and creditors.)

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It bes an interesting theory, Tela, but you have unfortunately failed to comprehend the actual meaning of "do what thou wilt". That may not be your fault as it bes that the late Anton LaVey most likely misapplied the saying himself. He bes always doing that, ripping things off Crowley and other source materials for western esoteric systems and making them into whatever he pleased. (His botched "translations" of the Enochian keys being one glaring case in point here...)

"Do what thou wilt" originates from the Thelemic tradition and bes intended as a statement of principle reflecting, believe it or not, a rather advanced moral imperative once one properly understands it. It does NOT mean simply do whatever one impulsively wishes or pleases at any given time, contrary to popular misconception. Moriah could explain it to you further perhaps in PM or off the board if you bes interested (so as not to run afoul of the "promotion" rule).

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy, how does Lucifer/Satan (or whatever name one wants to give to the FirstFallen) being or not being the most powerful created being indicate that there bes no other fallen beings? -- That seems a non-sequitur (sp?) to this one; how do you derive that conclusion from that premise?

let me clarify... I mean Tela suggested that Lucifer/Satan/Devil is the MOST powerful of the fallen beings... and I am asking how do we know that? Is it possible that there is a fallen being or beings who are more powerful than the devil?

The devil might be the most powerful fallen being we are familiar with, but not necessarily the most powerful fallen being in existence..... that was my point...

 

[sentipente]

One reason Lucifer being the most powerful (brain and brawn) of all created beings makes sense to me is that it fits what I have heard and observed about him. I heard Anton LaVey, author of the Satanic Bible, on a talk show, say that whereas God has ten commandments, Satan has only one, "Do what thou wilt."

How do you know that what you have observed is the being you call Lucifer? Show me one human who does not do what he will. I don't think you understand the concept. It does mean that you should disregard social mores. It means that what you do is what you want to do.

 

[Telaquapacky]

How do you know that what you have observed is the being you call Lucifer? Show me one human who does not do what he will. I don't think you understand the concept. It does mean that you should disregard social mores. It means that what you do is what you want to do.

I admit that this is a matter of opinion (in fact, for me, a matter of faith). Because I was never really attracted to the guy personally, the only things I observe about him is indirectly through the influence he has on others, and in my lowest moments in life, on me.

My understanding of the concept started out before I ever thought about religious things; by something I was taught in grade school. One of my teachers told us that if we were the only person in the world, or say, on a deserted island, then we could do whatever we wanted. The moment there is one other person, each person has to give up some of their liberty out of courtesy to the other person. In a world full of people, we have to give up a lot of our own wants and wishes for the common good.

In a Christian sense, giving up what we want for our own pleasure, in favor of the greater good of others is the basis of love. The command, "do what thou wilt" is a repudiation of that. The underlying meaning is, "be selfish." And yes, I don't know any human being that doesn't have a selfish streak, including myself. But the more we are filled with the Holy Spirit (and to a lesser degree, just plain horse sense), the more we keep a lid on that.

Otherwise I would go out and buy myself a sailboat, when it's really more important to get something that will make life better for my wife and family and the clients of my business that keep me afloat.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

let me clarify... I mean Tela suggested that Lucifer/Satan/Devil is the MOST powerful of the fallen beings... and I am asking how do we know that? Is it possible that there is a fallen being or beings who are more powerful than the devil?

The devil might be the most powerful fallen being we are familiar with, but not necessarily the most powerful fallen being in existence..... that was my point...

Ahhhhh, understand your point now. Thanks for clarifying.

So do you have any likely candidates in mind for that position besides "the devil"?

And (serious question) -- if any other being could be found what bes (a) fallen and (b) more powerful than "Lucifer" or "Satan", would not THAT being, by default, be considered "the devil"?

Interesting places this discussion bes going!

 

[StormyOne]

Ahhhhh, understand your point now. Thanks for clarifying.

So do you have any likely candidates in mind for that position besides "the devil"?

And (serious question) -- if any other being could be found what bes (a) fallen and (b) more powerful than "Lucifer" or "Satan", would not THAT being, by default, be considered "the devil"?

Interesting places this discussion bes going!

probably given that the traditional belief is that the "devil" is a repository for all that is evil...

The possibility exists (in my mind anyway) that there are some things that the "devil" is blamed for that may be the work of another or of humans themselves, or things happen in which the devil gets no credit but he may be responsible for.....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

How do you know that what you have observed is the being you call Lucifer? Show me one human who does not do what he will. I don't think you understand the concept. It does mean that you should disregard social mores. It means that what you do is what you want to do.

"Do what thou wilt" does not even mandate a disregard for social mores, per se, though it would inherently suggest a disregard for the common view that just because they exist as social mores automatically means they must be followed or obeyed. Herein lies the subtle difference between what the Thelemic "Law" actually means versus what most outsiders to Thelema imagine it to mean.

"Do what thou wilt" bes predicated upon the axiom that each of us has a "divine blueprint" if you will -- a course in the heavens just like any other star in the company of stars -- and that as such this constitutes our "true will" in life, or our destiny. DWTW mandates that we separate all other conflicting impulses, desires, and aims from our awareness of this destiny and its vector in order to apply ourselves in life to doing the one thing we truly WILL to do as opposed to all lesser whims and distractions except as the latter may be incorporated toward fulfillment of the former.

In a practical everyday sense it enjoins us to examine ourselves, our motives, our goals, our aims, our intents, beyond those of the temporal situation or circumstances, to rise above the immediate moment and chart our course of action and response based on something greater than how we feel or what we think or perceive at any given moment in life. It can thus be seen as a call to what Buddhists refer to as "mindfulness" and a higher moral imperative than seeking to satisfy momentary whims or desires or even perceived needs.

Thus contrary to the popular misconception that it intrinsically advocates chaos, anarchy and hedonism, it actually formulates the very heart of self-discipline at its core and enjoins the highest form of disciplined response and personal accountability upon the individual. What terrific irony, then, that it should come to be associated with its exact opposite, and seen as an excuse for the indulgence of whim and impulse! But this type of broad-based "disconnect" bes precisely what we can expect to see in situations where the translation of meaning and concept between two systems of thought has been so tarnished by rumour and vilification that the word for "God" in one system would be translated as "devil" in the other. Such has been the unfortunate legacy of the typical Christian fear-based approach to most esoteric systems which has left us woefully unprepared for learning from Paul's example on Mars Hill (Acts 17) the necessary and only effectual method of outreach to those in them.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The possibility exists (in my mind anyway) that there are some things that the "devil" is blamed for that may be the work of another or of humans themselves, or things happen in which the devil gets no credit but he may be responsible for.....

Without a doubt. Do you perceive any type of connection between this awareness and the notion that in an unfolding "antitypical day of Atonement" (to borrow SDA apocalypticism for a moment) the final act of the original ritual consisted in releasing the scapegoat? Approaching the OT ritual as the "shadow" and some as-yet-unquantified movement in human history as the "substance" presumably "fulfilling" it, have you given any thought to how that would manifest in a practical sense among the children of men?

Just wondering.

 

[StormyOne]

Without a doubt. Do you perceive any type of connection between this awareness and the notion that in an unfolding "antitypical day of Atonement" (to borrow SDA apocalypticism for a moment) the final act of the original ritual consisted in releasing the scapegoat? Approaching the OT ritual as the "shadow" and some as-yet-unquantified movement in human history as the "substance" presumably "fulfilling" it, have you given any thought to how that would manifest in a practical sense among the children of men?

Just wondering.

well it brings up the idea of forgiveness of Lucifer (who may or may not be the devil), from the standpoint of mixed-up ideas... traditional sda interpretations have the scapegoat killed, when the OT ritual clearly states it is released... then the other issue is a symbolic one... If one believes that Jesus bore the sins of all humanity, then sins cannot be (or do not need to be) placed on a scapegoat cause the scapegoat is not sacrificed.....

So then in cosmic reality it could be possible that Lucifer has been forgiven and restored, how would we know?

My point, sometimes we take analogies too far.... or as my friend Freud said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...."

 

[sentipente]

How do we know that Lucifer or Satan is still alive?

 

[AndrewK788]

How do we know that Lucifer or Satan is still alive?

In the last part of Revelation 20 it speaks of Satan decieving the nations and being thrown into the lake of fire. Since Christ has not returned yet, these events are still in the future. So I would suspect that Satan is alive...until these events take place that is.