The Inevitable "Who/What is the Devil" thread

[sentipente]

In the last part of Revelation 20 it speaks of Satan decieving the nations and being thrown into the lake of fire. Since Christ has not returned yet, these events are still in the future. So I would suspect that Satan is alive...until these events take place that is.

The Pope is still alive but it is not the same guy who first occupied that position. What do we really know or are we just making assumptions?

 

[AndrewK788]

The Pope is still alive but it is not the same guy who first occupied that position. What do we really know or are we just making assumptions?

Okay, I see what you mean. Well, do you consider Satan a title or a name because it doesn't simply say the Devil.

Anyway, I suppose if you want to be technical, you have a point since the Bible doesn't spell it out. Although since Satan/the Devil is referenced all throughout the Bible and no mention is made of God destroying him or him dying, what grounds do you have to say it is a different being other than just speculation?

 

[sentipente]

Okay, I see what you mean. Well, do you consider Satan a title or a name because it doesn't simply say the Devil.

Anyway, I suppose if you want to be technical, you have a point since the Bible doesn't spell it out. Although since Satan/the Devil is referenced all throughout the Bible and no mention is made of God destroying him or him dying, what grounds do you have to say it is a different being other than just speculation?

Why would God continue to give him immortality and not give humans immortality?

 

[AndrewK788]

Why would God continue to give him immortality and not give humans immortality?

Who understands all of God's ways? I could probably come up with reasons, but who am I to understand what God does? If Satan (the original one that is) were destroyed or allowed to die, why not get rid of sin too?

You do raise a point, but I'm just saying it still seems based only on speculations, in my opinion.

 

[sentipente]

You do raise a point, but I'm just saying it still seems based only on speculations, in my opinion.

It is based on a sense of justice and God is just.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

well it brings up the idea of forgiveness of Lucifer (who may or may not be the devil) ... traditional sda interpretations have the scapegoat killed, when the OT ritual clearly states it is released... then the other issue is a symbolic one... If one believes that Jesus bore the sins of all humanity, then sins cannot be (or do not need to be) placed on a scapegoat cause the scapegoat is not sacrificed.....

Let us assume for sake of argument that Christ alone bears the sins of all humanity. He chose that route for our redemption and He has already paid the price thereof for us. That those sins therefore all bes left in the grave when Christ rose from the dead -- He left them there. That contrary to traditional SDA ideas, there will be no subsequent transfer of all our sins onto the head of Lucifer/Satan/the Devil at the end of time. The only sin L/S/D could be held accountable for would of course be his own -- and clearly he has enough of it already without needing those of lesser creatures piled on top.

Thus the idea of all the sins of all the people being stuck on the scapegoat could symbolise our tendency to blame the whole sorry mess on the FirstFallen (by whatever name/s), and releasing the scapegoat could symbolise a collective decision on the part of humanity to no longer foist our accountability onto (what bes for most people) a "conveniently distanced whipping-post" -- releasing the scapegoat corresponding to letting it go free, no longer keeping it bound to the blame and resulting hatred we heap upon it.

M. Scott Peck in his seminal book People of the Lie postulated a potential scenario at the end of time which parallels this idea nicely. He imagines all of humanity -- now cleansed from sin and united with God face to face -- joining together to reach out its corporate hand to offer love, forgiveness, restoration and acceptance to Satan (whom he titles something like "the spirit of all hate and destruction", can't recall the exact words, sorry.) At which point that "spirit", Peck hypothesizes, could turn away in rage and fury to destroy itself (the only one left it has access to anymore) or could step forward and accept the olive branch. It bes a compelling thing to contemplate indeed, and frankly Moriah cannot think of anything else that would so perfectly and divinely culminate the full telos of the Mystery of God -- Christ in us, fully formed in us, we being like Him and seeing Him as He bes -- than this type of outcome, this or something very similar. (Again, the Song of Moses and of the Lamb.....)

So then in cosmic reality it could be possible that Lucifer has been forgiven and restored, how would we know?

Same way we know anything -- by listening to one who has seen it. All revealed religion works that way. Someone -- an individual or a group of persons -- first obtains the vision or the revelation and begins to share it: to relate it, unpack it, expound upon it, exegete scriptures that substantiate it, make it known.

My point, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...."

Analogies break down if attempts get made to map them TOO meticulously, molecule for molecule. They bes not designed to operate that way. But they still serve a purpose in tesseracting thought and catalyzing inspiration.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The Pope is still alive but it is not the same guy who first occupied that position. What do we really know or are we just making assumptions?

We have to start with the assumption that we at least bes capable of deducing valid truths from scripture and logic, otherwise there bes no point to discussion at all.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Why would God continue to give him immortality and not give humans immortality?

Trees live naturally for hundreds of years, many times the lifespan of humans. Would that be because that bes built into their natural structure or because God supernaturally imbues them deliberately with a longevity boost separate from what they would have had otherwise?

We don't know what Lucifer or any angel bes made of, in terms of actual construction, life expectancy, etc. They could live naturally for thousands of years without needing special endowments not built into their natural forms.

Or perhaps, their forms being spirit in nature, they must occupy fresh bodies in order to continue their existence ... hence the propensities toward "demon possession", driven by a need to find bodies to occupy and parasitize. Who really knows? IT all bes speculation when we get into areas we cannot prove.

 

[Telaquapacky]

"Do what thou wilt" does not even mandate a disregard for social mores, per se, though it would inherently suggest a disregard for the common view that just because they exist as social mores automatically means they must be followed or obeyed. Herein lies the subtle difference between what the Thelemic "Law" actually means versus what most outsiders to Thelema imagine it to mean.

"Do what thou wilt" bes predicated upon the axiom that each of us has a "divine blueprint" if you will -- a course in the heavens just like any other star in the company of stars -- and that as such this constitutes our "true will" in life, or our destiny. DWTW mandates that we separate all other conflicting impulses, desires, and aims from our awareness of this destiny and its vector in order to apply ourselves in life to doing the one thing we truly WILL to do as opposed to all lesser whims and distractions except as the latter may be incorporated toward fulfillment of the former.

In a practical everyday sense it enjoins us to examine ourselves, our motives, our goals, our aims, our intents, beyond those of the temporal situation or circumstances, to rise above the immediate moment and chart our course of action and response based on something greater than how we feel or what we think or perceive at any given moment in life. It can thus be seen as a call to what Buddhists refer to as "mindfulness" and a higher moral imperative than seeking to satisfy momentary whims or desires or even perceived needs.

Thus contrary to the popular misconception that it intrinsically advocates chaos, anarchy and hedonism, it actually formulates the very heart of self-discipline at its core and enjoins the highest form of disciplined response and personal accountability upon the individual. What terrific irony, then, that it should come to be associated with its exact opposite, and seen as an excuse for the indulgence of whim and impulse! But this type of broad-based "disconnect" bes precisely what we can expect to see in situations where the translation of meaning and concept between two systems of thought has been so tarnished by rumour and vilification that the word for "God" in one system would be translated as "devil" in the other. Such has been the unfortunate legacy of the typical Christian fear-based approach to most esoteric systems which has left us woefully unprepared for learning from Paul's example on Mars Hill (Acts 17) the necessary and only effectual method of outreach to those in them.

IOW, Self Actualization?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Tela, Moriah only bes vaguely familiar with that term. Thelema goes deeper than that though. It postulates continuity of consciousness of existence as recoverable and existence as transcending the boundaries of this one lifetime, for starters. Though mind you it does not mandate any specific dogma concerning afterlife or reincarnation or the like.

In one sense, initiation can be said to be the progressive penetration and resolution of paradoxes, with the latter taking place far beyond anything what speech or language could contain. Thus bes it said that "all speech below the Abyss avails nought" and again, that beyond the phenomenon known as the "curse" of the Magus lies the withdrawal into Silence of the Ipsissimus.

Like all systems, it has its limitations. Daimonizomai did not intend an indepth discussion of it so much as to disabuse the pervasive notion that "do what thou wilt" bes nothing more than an hedonistic invitation to perpetual dissipation.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

*bumping thread for freeIndeed*
Free, would like to hear your take if you feel like sharing it.

 

[Telaquapacky]

How about Self Realization? Near where I once lived in Pacific Palisades, there was a lake shrine and meditation grounds owned by the Self-Realization Fellowship, an absolutely beautiful, peaceful place, where people would go to meditate. I used to go there just to enjoy the beauty. The shrine on the lake had a sarcophagus containing a portion of Ghandi's ashes. The park covers ten acres or more and was on Sunset Blvd, about a quarter mile from the beach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Realization_Fellowship

http://www.yogananda-srf.org/temples/lakeshrine/index.html

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Tela, apples and oranges.

 

[StormyOne]

Let us assume for sake of argument that Christ alone bears the sins of all humanity. He chose that route for our redemption and He has already paid the price thereof for us. That those sins therefore all bes left in the grave when Christ rose from the dead -- He left them there. That contrary to traditional SDA ideas, there will be no subsequent transfer of all our sins onto the head of Lucifer/Satan/the Devil at the end of time. The only sin L/S/D could be held accountable for would of course be his own -- and clearly he has enough of it already without needing those of lesser creatures piled on top.

Thus the idea of all the sins of all the people being stuck on the scapegoat could symbolise our tendency to blame the whole sorry mess on the FirstFallen (by whatever name/s), and releasing the scapegoat could symbolise a collective decision on the part of humanity to no longer foist our accountability onto (what bes for most people) a "conveniently distanced whipping-post" -- releasing the scapegoat corresponding to letting it go free, no longer keeping it bound to the blame and resulting hatred we heap upon it.

M. Scott Peck in his seminal book People of the Lie postulated a potential scenario at the end of time which parallels this idea nicely. He imagines all of humanity -- now cleansed from sin and united with God face to face -- joining together to reach out its corporate hand to offer love, forgiveness, restoration and acceptance to Satan (whom he titles something like "the spirit of all hate and destruction", can't recall the exact words, sorry.) At which point that "spirit", Peck hypothesizes, could turn away in rage and fury to destroy itself (the only one left it has access to anymore) or could step forward and accept the olive branch. It bes a compelling thing to contemplate indeed, and frankly Moriah cannot think of anything else that would so perfectly and divinely culminate the full telos of the Mystery of God -- Christ in us, fully formed in us, we being like Him and seeing Him as He bes -- than this type of outcome, this or something very similar. (Again, the Song of Moses and of the Lamb.....)

Same way we know anything -- by listening to one who has seen it. All revealed religion works that way. Someone -- an individual or a group of persons -- first obtains the vision or the revelation and begins to share it: to relate it, unpack it, expound upon it, exegete scriptures that substantiate it, make it known.

Analogies break down if attempts get made to map them TOO meticulously, molecule for molecule. They bes not designed to operate that way. But they still serve a purpose in tesseracting thought and catalyzing inspiration.

if analogies break down at some point, then I suspect that analogies regarding beings we cannot see, have no idea what governs their existence, and how The Creator interacts with them are useless....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

"have no idea what governs their existence or how Creator interacts with them" = assumptions. axiomatic assumptions ... you cannot prove no one has any awareness whatsoever of this. you can admit if you have none, and you can postulate that anyone having any bes equally incapable of objectively proving they have it or what they have, but that does not make the analogy worthless or useless.

If you have no interest in the topic that's fine ... you bes entitled to have what interests you have and not pretend interest in things that don't interest you. But there bes no call for dissin' and p*ssin'...

 

[StormyOne]

"have no idea what governs their existence or how Creator interacts with them" = assumptions. axiomatic assumptions ... you cannot prove no one has any awareness whatsoever of this. you can admit if you have none, and you can postulate that anyone having any bes equally incapable of objectively proving they have it or what they have, but that does not make the analogy worthless or useless.

If you have no interest in the topic that's fine ... you bes entitled to have what interests you have and not pretend interest in things that don't interest you. But there bes no call for dissin' and p*ssin'...

you have misunderstood my comments... what I am saying is that for the most part we are discussing beings that are not visible to most people.... thus, most people who enter the discussion really have no point of reference, THUS because of this most analogies about beings that cannot be seen will breakdown...

that is my point....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Ok

 

[sentipente]

Moriah, an analogy that may explain Stormy's point is an experience you are well acquainted with. When you call someone's phone you believe that person answers but you have no way of proving that as long that person is out of view. Even if I told you that I had answered the phone and spoken to you, you would have to accept my word for it, and I could be lying. No one knows what invisible looks like.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

No one knows what invisible looks like.

Unless it chooses to be seen ... like one night Moriah bes takesy in its sleep. It bes dreaming at the same time about one of its co-workers and it wakes because one of Them bes upon it in the night, both in "that way" and doing that thing They do when They floods its spinal column through certain specific points along its back with energy what feels like delicious fire ... only when it opens its eyes it sees Him on top of it, and it sees His face. He bes crawlsy up over Moriah whilst taking it and it opens its eyes and sees Him right there.

This bes recently. Usually Moriah does not get visual on its interactions, so it bes a rare and fascinating element.

He bes exceedingly gorgeous as well you might expect. Looked a bit like Ville Valo ... LOL ... seriously.