The Indie Thread (2)

blackwasp · Mar 19, 2006

philN said:
The Lollapalooza line-up was announced today.

Ween
The Flaming Lips
Wilco
Sonic Youth
The Go! Team
The Shins
Broken Social Scene
New Pornographers
Secret Machines
Kanye West
The Hold Steady
Of Montreal
Jeremy Enigk
Anathallo

There are others, but I'm super-excited about those ones.

Wow. That sounds fantastic.

The Theory · Mar 19, 2006

philN said:
Jacob (Theory), do you know if you are going or not?

considering the responce on decapolis, i will if i have someone to travel with. I'm not much on driving alone for that great distance.

philN · Mar 19, 2006

I have to make sure I can get off of work, but other than that I think I am going to try and go. If I can go (which shouldn't be a problem) and you want to travel together, I'm all for it.

Prince Lucianus · Mar 20, 2006

philN said:
Ween
The Flaming Lips
Wilco
Sonic Youth
The Go! Team
The Shins
Broken Social Scene
New Pornographers
Secret Machines
Kanye West
The Hold Steady
Of Montreal
Jeremy Enigk
Anathallo

Geeez, I've only heared of one.

I'm so out of touch.

Lucy

eutychus · Mar 20, 2006

It's laudable that three thousand Lollapalooza tickets for $45 each went in a little over thirty minutes.

$130 it is, then.

ariotofmyown · Mar 22, 2006

Any fans of the Pogues in here? I saw them play in NYC last saturday at the Nokia Theatre in Times Square, and it was absolutely f***ing amazing. There's no other way to describe it. Maybe the best show I've ever been to. Steve Buscemi, Joaquin Phoenix, and Cillian Murphy even came out for the event. I even ended up missing the first show that I paid $130 to get a ticket off eBay for, because I got arrested and had to spend the night in jail (long story), and bought a scalped ticket outside for an additional $80-----and it was still totally worth it! For anybody not familiar with them, go buy one of their albums immediately. I'd recommend starting with any of the first three: Red Roses for Me, Rum, Sodomy & the Lash or If I Should Fall from Grace with God. They're all masterpieces. And they may just be the best live band you'll ever have the privilege of seeing in this lifetime.

theFijian · Mar 22, 2006

The Pogues are alright, not exactly indie though.

ariotofmyown · Mar 22, 2006

theFijian said:
...not exactly indie

True, but I couldn't find a better thread to post on and I didn't even think about starting a new one. Anyway, any other Pogues fans here?

white_frog914 · Mar 22, 2006

ariotofmyown said:
Any fans of the Pogues in here? I saw them play in NYC last saturday at the Nokia Theatre in Times Square, and it was absolutely f***ing amazing. There's no other way to describe it. Maybe the best show I've ever been to. Steve Buscemi, Joaquin Phoenix, and Cillian Murphy even came out for the event. I even ended up missing the first show that I paid $130 to get a ticket off eBay for, because I got arrested and had to spend the night in jail (long story), and bought a scalped ticket outside for an additional $80-----and it was still totally worth it! For anybody not familiar with them, go buy one of their albums immediately. I'd recommend starting with any of the first three: Red Roses for Me, Rum, Sodomy & the Lash or If I Should Fall from Grace with God. They're all masterpieces. And they may just be the best live band you'll ever have the privilege of seeing in this lifetime.

THE POGUES! THE POGUES!

HOORAY!

*dance*

And also, how exactly aren't the Pogues indie? They're as "indie" as Pavement or The Smiths.

ariotofmyown · Mar 22, 2006

white_frog914 said:
THE POGUES! THE POGUES!

HOORAY!

*dance*

Now that's more like it!

Favorite Pogues song/album?

ariotofmyown · Mar 23, 2006

blackwasp said:
Hey bro,

I responded to your query about lyricists around post #158 in the Indie thread if you'd like to go back and respond. I'm not sure if you saw it...things can get buried at times.

Peace out boy scout,

Jacob

Jake,
Rest assured, my good man, I saw it. I initially deemed your post "too ridiculous" to write a response to, but since you seem to really want one, I went back and gave it another read. Upon closer inspection, I realized that you weren't just being cheeky. You asked for it, so here goes...

blackwasp said:
In my opinion, people are so used to hearing what a great songwriter Dylan is/was that they neglect that anyone else could be as good (I think I fell into this for a while). As for lyricists, I have two main categories for my favorites: those that I think are objectively great writers and those that write things that I feel I can relate to.

I'll include my favorite piece lyrically by each artist.

Lyricists I find objectively better than Dylan:

Joanna Newsom ("Sadie")
Colin Meloy (The Decemberists) ("Grace Cathedral Hill")
Isaac Brock (Modest Mouse) ("Broke")
Will Oldham ("I See a Darkness")

Lyricists I personally enjoy more:
Jeff Tweedy (Wilco) ("Ashes of American Flags")
Conor Oberst (Bright Eyes) ("Waste of Paint")
Doug Martsch (Built to Spill) ("Cleo")
Nas ("Life's a *****")
Jeff Mangum (Neutral Milk Hotel) ("In the Aeroplane Over the Sea")

Lyricists who have written individual songs that I feel are more moving than anything Dylan wrote:

Elliott Smith ("Fond Farewell")
Sam Beam (Iron & Wine) ("Sodom, South Georgia")
Devendra Banhart ("The Body Breaks")
John Darnielle (The Mountain Goats) ("The Best Ever Death Metal Band in Denton")
Billy Corgan (Smashing Pumpkins) ("Disarm")
Lou Reed (The Velvet Underground) ("Heroin")

You honestly expect me to take this post seriously? All you did was list me every "it" indie band of the moment: Joanna Newsom, the Decemberists, Modest Mouse, Wilco, Bright Eyes, Built to Spill, Neutral Milk Hotel, Elliott Smith, Iron & Wine, the Mountain Goats---did you just go on a 17-year-old's Myspace and copy/paste their "music" section? None of these could hold a candle to a lyricist of Dylan's caliber, and you'll probably realize that about five years from now when their popularity wanes and the next batch of hot indie bands is ushered in.

P.S. I'd give you props for including the Velvets, 'cept that you (of course) picked the one song that everyone knows, off the album that every Sufjan Stevens-worshippin' "indie" kid has.

blackwasp said:
Perhaps you could list a few of Dylan's songs that you think are the epitome of songwriting.

Epitome of songwriting? There is no such thing. Songwriting is (ideally) an organic process, not an exact science which can be boiled down to single examples that "epitomize" the medium. "Visions of Johanna" and "Just Like a Woman" are probably my favorite Dylan songs, if that's what you're asking-----and you and I both know for a stone fact that the entire combined catalogues of the aforementioned lyricists on your list couldn't touch either of those compositions.

theFijian · Mar 23, 2006

I can see now why you got arrested at that concert.

blackwasp · Mar 23, 2006

ariotofmyown said:
Jake,
Rest assured, my good man, I saw it. I initially deemed your post "too ridiculous" to write a response to, but since you seem to really want one, I went back and gave it another read. Upon closer inspection, I realized that you weren't just being cheeky. You asked for it, so here goes...

Oh boy...

ariotofmyown said:
You honestly expect me to take this post seriously? All you did was list me every "it" indie band of the moment: Joanna Newsom, the Decemberists, Modest Mouse, Wilco, Bright Eyes, Built to Spill, Neutral Milk Hotel, Elliott Smith, Iron & Wine, the Mountain Goats---did you just go on a 17-year-old's Myspace and copy/paste their "music" section? None of these could hold a candle to a lyricist of Dylan's caliber, and you'll probably realize that about five years from now when their popularity wanes and the next batch of hot indie bands is ushered in.

I'd have to disagree on multiple points. I don't see how you can consider Joanna Newsom, Neutral Milk Hotel, or The Mountain Goats current "it" bands. And even if Bright Eyes, Modest Mouse, and Wilco have gained popularity recently, it doesn't mean they aren't great lyricists or that they haven't written great songs.

Did you read any of the lyrics I suggested? How about this one:

Joanna Newsom said:
Sadie, white coat,
carry me home
and bury this bone
take this pinecone

bury this bone
to gnaw on it later
gnawing on the telephone
until then, we pray and suspend
the notion that these lives do never end

and all day long we talk about mercy
lead me to water lord, i sure am thirsty
down in the ditch where i nearly served you
up in the clouds where he almost heard you

And all that we built,
and all that we breathed,
and all that we spilt, or pulled up like weeds
is piled up in back;
it burns irrevocably.
(we spoke up in turns,
'till the silence crept over me)

Bless you
and I deeply do
no longer resolute
and I call to you

But the water go so cold,
and you do lose
what you don't hold.

this is an old song
these are old blues
and this is not my tune
but it's mine to use

And the seabirds
where the fear once grew
will flock with a fury,
and they will bury what'd come for you

Down where I darn with the milk-eyed mender
you and I, and a love so tender,
is stretched-on the hoop where I stitch-this adage:
"Bless this house and its heart so savage."

And all that I want, and all that I need
and all that I've got is scattered like seed.
And all that I knew is moving away from me.
(and all that I know is blowing
like tumbleweed)

And the mealy worms
in the brine will burn
in a salty pyre,
among the fauns and ferns.

And the love we hold,
and the love we spurn,
will never grow cold
only taciturn.

And I'll tell you tomorrow.
Sadie, go on home now.
Bless those who've sickened below;
bless us who've chosen so.

And all that I've got
and all that I need
I tie in a knot
that I lay at your feet.
I have not forgot,
but a silence crept over me.
(So dig up your bone,
exhume your pinecone, my sadie)

You later mention "Just Like a Woman":

Dylan said:
Nobody feels any pain
Tonight as I stand inside the rain
Ev'rybody knows
That Baby's got new clothes
But lately I see her ribbons and her bows
Have fallen from her curls.
She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl.

Queen Mary, she's my friend
Yes, I believe I'll go see her again
Nobody has to guess
That Baby can't be blessed
Till she sees finally that she's like all the rest
With her fog, her amphetamine and her pearls.
She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl.

It was raining from the first
And I was dying there of thirst
So I came in here
And your long-time curse hurts
But what's worse
Is this pain in here
I can't stay in here
Ain't it clear thatÑ

I just can't fit
Yes, I believe it's time for us to quit
When we meet again
Introduced as friends
Please don't let on that you knew me when
I was hungry and it was your world.
Ah, you fake just like a woman, yes, you do
You make love just like a woman, yes, you do
Then you ache just like a woman
But you break just like a little girl.

My intention is not to bash Dylan. I realize that he was a very important figure and wrote better than I will ever be able to. However, I still think the lyrics show the discrepancy.

ariotofmyown said:
P.S. I'd give you props for including the Velvets, 'cept that you (of course) picked the one song that everyone knows, off the album that every Sufjan Stevens-worshippin' "indie" kid has.

It doesn't matter to me whether or not everyone knows it. I think it's great art. Once again, how does this invalidate the lyrics? I could have picked "The Murder Mystery" (which I think is very interesting lyrically). Would you be happier with that one?

ariotofmyown said:
Epitome of songwriting? There is no such thing. Songwriting is (ideally) an organic process, not an exact science which can be boiled down to single examples that "epitomize" the medium. "Visions of Johanna" and "Just Like a Woman" are probably my favorite Dylan songs, if that's what you're asking-----and you and I both know for a stone fact that the entire combined catalogues of the aforementioned lyricists on your list couldn't touch either of those compositions.

I disagree. The idea that Dylan is better than everyone else combined is a bit silly. In fact, I think hailing Dylan as untouchable is pretty damn trendy and the "it" thing.

All in good fun...

ariotofmyown · Mar 23, 2006

theFijian said:
I can see now why you got arrested at that concert.

Didn't make it to the show that night, got nicked on the subway platform. I can always appreciate a cheap shot, though, so kudos.

blackwasp said:
I don't see how you can consider Joanna Newsom, Neutral Milk Hotel, or The Mountain Goats current "it" bands.

Maybe they aren't considered such wherever it is you live, but I can tell you that here in California, they most certainly are.

blackwasp said:
Even if Bright Eyes, Modest Mouse, and Wilco have gained popularity recently, it doesn't mean they aren't great lyricists or that they haven't written great songs.

But for the sake of your credibility within this debate, you should have opted for some (at least slightly) more obscure and less obvious choices.

blackwasp said:
You later mention "Just Like a Woman".

My intention is not to bash Dylan. I realize that he was a very important figure and wrote better than I will ever be able to. However, I still think the lyrics show the discrepancy.

You miss the point, my friend. A songwriter's work is not always done once the ink has dried on the page. There is something to be said for delivery. And "Just Like a Woman" is a love song that is, to quote music critic Bill Wyman (no relation to the Rolling Stones bassist), "so elegant and confused, it's not clear today, nearly 35 years later, whether it is insufferably condescending or startlingly loving."

P.S. I notice that a critique of "Visions of Johanna" is conspicuously absent.

blackwasp said:
I could have picked "The Murder Mystery" (which I think is very interesting lyrically). Would you be happier with that one?

Yes, I would. "The Murder Mystery" it is.

blackwasp said:
I think hailing Dylan as untouchable is pretty damn trendy and the "it" thing.

We finally agree 100%. I only used him because he was the initial reference point, but can we just retire Dylan from this debate altogether? I'm quite sick of referencing him at this point too.

white_frog914 · Mar 23, 2006

ariotofmyown said:
Now that's more like it!

Favorite Pogues song/album?

Right now? Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash

ariotofmyown · Mar 23, 2006

white_frog914 said:
Right now? Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash

A true classic if ever there was one. When I saw them they played "A Pair of Brown Eyes," "The Old Main Drag," "Dirty Old Town," "The Sick Bed of Cuchulainn," and "Sally MacLennane." To reiterate, it was AMAZING!

white_frog914 · Mar 23, 2006

I still hate you.

The Theory · Mar 23, 2006

but you love me, right?

...i mean. I love you. Mutual feelings rock!

theFijian · Mar 24, 2006

ariotofmyown said:
Didn't make it to the show that night, got nicked on the subway platform. I can always appreciate a cheap shot, though, so kudos.

Ah now you're getting into the swing of things. We indie types love irony, since your post was nothing but cheap shots.

ariotofmyown · Mar 24, 2006

theFijian said:
Your post was nothing but cheap shots.

I'm a bit perplexed. I responded to an invitation to a debate with a fellow poster in which I cited example upon example corresponding with each of my key points, and took part in this discussion which I had no interest in only because I was incessantly asked to do so-----this qualifies as taking "cheap shots?"

---Just making sure, y'know, for the record.

The Indie Thread (2)

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I love you but I'm still a liar

Bagpipes well could he blow.

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