the importance of Virginity?

[David Jerome]

Because a person who isn't confident in their own desires isn't going to be able to take the lead.

Taking the lead requires you to know.what you want and be able to assert it. Somebody might truly enjoy being a little (or a lot) submissive, and that's one.reason they might want their partner to take the lead; but they also might want that because they don't know what they want, or because the idea of sex being about *their* desire is foreign, unthinkable or uncomfortable.

So when, in the circle of people you're dating, you find that there's a disproportionate number of women who want you to take the lead, that doesn't sound to me like "these women happen to enjoy submitting, sexually"--you wouldnt expect "most" people to fall one way or the other on that. It sounds like this is a crowd of women who need their partner to take the lead because they don't feel comfortable feeling or expressing their desires.

If you live on planet earth, this is common. It's not about "inability to experess their desires", it's just a cultural norm, like a man picking up the check on a date.

 

[Wayte]

If you live on planet earth, this is common. It's not about "inability to experess their desires", it's just a cultural norm, like a man picking up the check on a date.

And we all know not conforming to cultural norms always goes just peachy, amirite guys?

 

[Verv]

What is excess depends on who is judging. What is base depends on who is judging. And of course, there are plenty of ways to have sex (and lots of it) without it being base, gluttonous or undisciplined. The most sexually active person I know is also the most disciplined--and is specifically the most disciplined with regards to sex.

So essentially...

"Everything is relative..."

"And sex can be its own form of discipline..."

?

Can you explain the second one?

I know that it is theoretically possible for a man to be a 'disciplined drinker,' e.g. he never drinks less than 7 shots of vodka a day and has a commitment to his alcoholism... But is this really 'disciplined?'

 

[PassionFruit]

If you live on planet earth, this is common. It's not about "inability to experess their desires", it's just a cultural norm, like a man picking up the check on a date.

That's the point. Culturally women are taught to let men to take the lead. Culturally women are taught to be passive and submissive during sex. In a sense, it is about the "inability to express desires." You pointed out that usually women like for a man to take the lead. So of course women aren't going to express their desires upfront. Also there's the risk of scaring men off, while there are men who like women who are experienced, there are others who don't like the idea of women being sexually experienced, in part it does have a lot do with it going against the norm.

 

[David Jerome]

That's the point. Culturally women are taught to let men to take the lead. Culturally women are taught to be passive and submissive during sex. In a sense, it is about the "inability to express desires." You pointed out that usually women like for a man to take the lead. So of course women aren't going to express their desires upfront. Also there's the risk of scaring men off, while there are men who like women who are experienced, there are others who don't like the idea of women being sexually experienced, in part it does have a lot do with it going against the norm.

That's all well and good. But my original point was that women like men to take the lead. A few posted disagreed; now those same posters are agreeing that women like men to take the lead, but believe it's only because of culture.

Cool. Whatever the reason that women want men to take the lead, the fact remains, that many women do, like you posters now acknowledge. So going back to my original point...experience *usually* doesn't matter from a woman, because they *usually* like men to take the lead.

 

[David Jerome]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that some women are unhappy with the cultural expectation of men taking the lead; but I still think many women actually do enjoy it, from a romantic standpoint. Whether it's because of fairytails of being swept away by a dashing knight in shining armor, or because of evolution and alpha males being the prefered mating partner, A lot of women do enjoy men taking the lead.

 

[PassionFruit]

That's all well and good. But my original point was that women like men to take the lead. A few posted disagreed; now those same posters are agreeing that women like men to take the lead, but believe it's only because of culture.

I believe that's why Mling (not trying to speak for her) and I disagreed. I think people believe this stuff is biological (to a point it is, but not entirely). Many people don't see how socialization plays an enormous role. Hence, my comment about how men are sometimes threatned by a sexually experienced woman or when a woman is sexually assertive, we're not "supposed" to do that, because appearently it's not in "our nature."

And what the hell is an "alpha male?"

 

[Mling]

That's all well and good. But my original point was that women like men to take the lead. A few posted disagreed; now those same posters are agreeing that women like men to take the lead, but believe it's only because of culture.

Cool. Whatever the reason that women want men to take the lead, the fact remains, that many women do, like you posters now acknowledge. So going back to my original point...experience *usually* doesn't matter from a woman, because they *usually* like men to take the lead.

Don't put words in my mouth, i'm not "acknowledging" that women usually *enjoy* men taking the lead. I'm saying that when girls learn what sex is, they don't see any option *but* to let men take the lead. If they were aware of their options, there might be many things they'd like a lot better, but as it is, they let men lead because they wouldn't know how to manage otherwise.

Ask a five year old if they *like* their parents paying going to work, and they'd probably blink at you because they've never considered that it was something they could like or not--it's just what their life is like. Ask them if they'd like to spend all day every day mowing lawns so they could pay the mortgage themselves, or else they'll lose their house and have nowhere to live, and they'll probably say they like their parents going to work instead, thank you very much.

Ask them that question when their older, when they have a much better conception of what it's like to make their own choices and live their own life, and they will probably choose to work and pay their own rent, rather than let their parents control them.

A fair number of women have been kept in the five year old state, regarding sex. It's not that they *enjoy* men leading; it's that they have so little idea of how they could function, sexually, without a man leading that the idea is scary and unthinkable. I've known women who will touch for their husband's enjoyment, but find the idea of masturbating just for themselves to.be disgusting and horrifying. The problem isn't that they dislike masturbation--it's that they are unsettled by doing anything that isnt, ultimately, about pleasing a man.

If the only reason you do something is because it's the only option that doesnt seem scary and wrong, you can't really say you "enjoy" it. That's not what enjoyment is.

 

[Mling]

"So essentially...

"Everything is relative...""

Not everything. But certainly everything that is unnecessary to begin with and is about making your life more enjoyable. Since we seem to he discussing non-procreative sex, that seems to be the case here.

""And sex can be its own form of discipline..."


Can you explain the second one?"

I didn't say anything even a little bit like that, so nope. Can't explain it.

"I know that it is theoretically possible for a man to be a 'disciplined drinker,' e.g. he never drinks less than 7 shots of vodka a day and has a commitment to his alcoholism... But is this really 'disciplined?"

That's not what i would call a disciplined drinker. I'd call somebody a disciplined drinker if they drink exactly as much as would make their own life and the lives of the people around them more enjoyable. They don't restrict themself unnecessarily, but they know when it will stop enhancing their life and they stop before that point--so they dont give themself health problems, or cause cause anybody injury, embarrassment or ajy other harm.

I'd consider somebody to be sexually active in a disciplined way if they follow that same pattern.

 

[David Jerome]

Don't put words in my mouth, i'm not "acknowledging" that women usually *enjoy* men taking the lead.

I didn't say that. You keep misquoting me or attacking me for things I didn't say. Reread my post.

 

[David Jerome]

I believe that's why Mling (not trying to speak for her) and I disagreed. I think people believe this stuff is biological (to a point it is, but not entirely). Many people don't see how socialization plays an enormous role. Hence, my comment about how men are sometimes threatned by a sexually experienced woman or when a woman is sexually assertive, we're not "supposed" to do that, because appearently it's not in "our nature."

While you're right, this wasn't the topic. Mling took a comment that acknowledged that women--for whatever reason, be it cultural, biological, or a combination of both--want men to take the lead during sex, and denied that it was true. Her posts later showed that she understands it is true, but turned this into an entirely different conversation.

And what the hell is an "alpha male?"

This is not an an esoteric term. It's a common, well known term. Use Google.

 

[quatona]

i just don't understand why people believe that Virginity is so important?
it just doesn't make sense to me.

I don´t even understand why someone would believe that this topic is so important that she creates several threads about it.

 

[William II]

Speak for yourself. Besides, there are a lot of men who would like a woman who has experience.

Sex is better if both parties know what they're doing, what works/doesn't work and how to achieve the desired results. I'm always down with a girl who can help me help her

 

[David Jerome]

I'm always down with a girl who can help me help her

Preach it, brother!

 

[PassionFruit]

This is not an an esoteric term. It's a common, well known term. Use Google.

I'm only asking because it seems like the definition of "alpha" male keeps changing. It seems to have several meanings. The people who define it can't seem to decide what the definition is.

Now are you telling me there's one definition? For instance, it seems that an "alpha" male can be good looking, wealthy, and heave ease talking with women. That definition makes sense, but what about men who aren't particularly good looking or wealthly, but have no issues with talking with women, are they alpha males? Would Bill Gates be defined as an alpha male?

 

[PassionFruit]

Sex is better if both parties know what they're doing, what works/doesn't work and how to achieve the desired results. I'm always down with a girl who can help me help her

Yeah I agree, I think that's the issue with the whole "men should take the lead." A lot of women interpret that to mean being passive, and letting the guy figure out what they like and I think it's left a lot of women sexually unsatisfied unfortuntely.

 

[William II]

Yeah I agree, I think that's the issue with the whole "men should take the lead." A lot of women interpret that to mean being passive, and letting the guy figure out what they like and I think it's left a lot of women sexually unsatisfied unfortuntely.

I'd hate some super-passive girl in bed. If she's not enjoying it, I'd have to reconsider what I was doing

 

[David Jerome]

I'm only asking because it seems like the definition of "alpha" male keeps changing. It seems to have several meanings. The people who define it can't seem to decide what the definition is.

Now are you telling me there's one definition? For instance, it seems that an "alpha" male can be good looking, wealthy, and heave ease talking with women. That definition makes sense, but what about men who aren't particularly good looking or wealthly, but have no issues with talking with women, are they alpha males? Would Bill Gates be defined as an alpha male?

"Alpha male" is a term describing the top male in a group of social animals. For example, the alpha male in a population of gorrillas, the "alpha male" is usually the strongest, most ferocious male, that as a result his physical prowess, mates the most and is the first choice.

When applied to humans, it's basically means a man who commands respect, that women want to have sex more than anyone else.

 

[vortigen84]

i just don't understand why people believe that Virginity is so important?
it just doesn't make sense to me.

Virginity isn't important per se.

However, the topic gets brought up in relation to important social issues that have to do with human sexual behaviours.

 

[Larry Mondello]

Sex is better if both parties know what they're doing, what works/doesn't work and how to achieve the desired results. I'm always down with a girl who can help me help her

Sex really isn't that difficult.
It's pretty intuitive, actually.

It's a myth that two people have to "test drive" the car before marriage bec. they might not be sexually compatible, though some couples have problems.

Doesn't take much for two virgins to figure out what to do.
And if one is worried, or wants to know better what to do, there are good Christian sex manuals like Sheet Music, which also advises having a surgeon break the bride's hymen for easier access. Have read of the difficulties some Christian couples experience.

When I first had sex, @17-18 with my HS GF, we figured things out pretty well.
It wasn't great, but it wasn't rocket science.

This was before I became of faith a year later in college.
Yes, I've apologized to her for my actions, me thinking only of myself and not being the man I should have been to her.

Am not proud of that early sex, which I think screwed me up and made me nervous and afraid of women through most of my 20s.
That remains my biggest life regret.