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You mean like the catholic church does...oh sure, maybe not it's prelates, but the body of the Church does.
Or are you as out of the loop there as well?
I know you are, but what am I.....reverting to 2nd grade tactics I see. Oh goodness.
You mean like the catholic church does...oh sure, maybe not it's prelates, but the body of the Church does.
Or are you as out of the loop there as well?
Revelation is not speaking of the original birth of Jesus, therefore you'd be wrong. See the problem is that you believe there's only one meaning of Revelation, or any Scripture, for that matter. The woman (signified by being 'woman', as Eve was 'woman')gives birth to the male child, she's not only Mary, she's Daughter Zion as in Isaiah 66:7 and Isaiah 26:17.In RC Marian theology, it is impossible for Rev. 12:1-2 to be a picture of Mary.
RC theology: Mary did not experience the curse of pain in childbirth
Rev. 12:1-2: this woman travailed in birth and was pained to be delivered
However, if you want Rev 12:1-2 to be about Mary, then you'd have to agree she pained in birth (no more ever-virgin).
The answer to this question is "yes".That would mean the church also gave birth the man child which is Jesus.
That's your own belief, but is an innovation, not taught for a very long time.Watch the video below to hear why the woman cannot be the church.
Yes. Really can't have one without the other.So which one is it? Did the church give birth to messiah or did messiah give birth to the church. It can't be both.
Defer: To put off; postpone. Synonyms: defer, postpone, shelve, stay, suspend. (Thefreedictionary.com)
Sorry but you can't do that. You can't "defer" what a verse is stating to make it fit your narrative. These verses are in reference to a woman having birth pangs and giving birth to a man child. (Rev 12:2-5) Jesus was no longer a child when he was on the cross at Calvary.
Firstly, this is a logical non sequitur. Secondly, Mary probably did suffer but she certainly did not share her son's suffering. She was not lashed, humiliated and hung on a cross. Neither was she made to be sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in her (2 Corinthians 5:21)
So Jesus came down from heaven only to be swept up to heaven again right after his birth? ...Yeah, that sounds very unlikely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cu0LkglQgw
... if he was not going to be born in the way that all other humans are born?
The answer to this question is "yes".
That's your own belief, but is an innovation, not taught for a very long time.
Yes. Really can't have one without the other.
Mary is also the Mother of the Church that was born on Calvary, clearly in Marys pain (cf. Luke 2:34-35; Catechism, no. 766).
The answer to this question is "yes".That would mean the church also gave birth the man child which is Jesus.
Don'tcha just love youtube/Wikipedia theology?
This wasn't a yes or no question. I was asking who gave birth to who first. Because what Defensor Christi and you are saying seems to create a paradox. First Defensor said the church was created at Calvary:
And you're saying the church gave birth to Christ.
See the problem here.
So my question again is: who gave birth to who first?
I think you missed this part, "Scripture is traditionally interpreted in four senses (please see our Faith Fact, Scripture Sense): literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical. God not only teaches through words (literally), but also through the things, people, and events mentioned in scripture (see Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 115-19). " #55
You cannot interpret this passage (or most, in Revelation, for that matter) literally...once you understand that their are layered meanings, things become much more clear.
True...but still there is a paradox in the argument, if Jesus gave birth to the Church, how can the church give birth to Jesus.
Revelation is not speaking of the original birth of Jesus, therefore you'd be wrong. See the problem is that you believe there's only one meaning of Revelation, or any Scripture, for that matter. The woman (signified by being 'woman', as Eve was 'woman')gives birth to the male child, she's not only Mary, she's Daughter Zion as in Isaiah 66:7 and Isaiah 26:17.
But He wasnt born like all other humans, He was born without the stain of original sin...that is the point.
In one sense, yes, she did. In another sense, no, she didn't. In one sense, the woman is Mary, in another sense the woman is daughter Zion. You guys really need to learn about the senses of Scripture, and that the answer to questions that go either/or is usually both/and. So you can say that Christ was speaking literally in John 6, but you can also see three other senses-allegorical, anagogical. and moral.So, did "the woman" give birth to Jesus or not? If yes, then you'd agree "the woman" pained at birth. If no, what's your point that "the woman" is not Mary?
Did DC say it had something to do with Mary??? Even Mary's sinlessness had nothing to do with anything she did.As pointed out many times, if He was born without the stain of original sin, it had nothing to do with Mary.
Why isn't this thread on the Maridolatry board?
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Were the parents of John the Baptist sinless? John was born filled with the Holy Spirit upon birth, just as Jesus was it seems......Did DC say it had something to do with Mary???
Even Mary's sinlessness had nothing to do with anything she did.
The difference is that John the Baptist was filled by God, and Jesus is God.Were the parents of John the Baptist sinless? John was born filled with the Holy Spirit upon birth, just as Jesus was it seems......
Luke 1:
5 In the days of Herod, King of Judea,* there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
7 But they had no child,* because Elizabeth was barren and both were advanced in years.d
13 But the angel said to him, Do not be afraid,* Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John.f
14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth,
15 for he will be great in the sight of [the] Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink.*
He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mothers womb,g
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Ahhhh... I see.The difference is that John the Baptist was filled by God, and Jesus is God.
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