The Hypocrisy of Calvinists

[gordonhooker]

Not on his own. We need God to draw us.

I have no intention of arguing with you I simply supplied a scriptural reference that does not include, 'but only if you are drawn....'. It is pretty clear to me what it means but maybe I am dumb.

PS... who is to say that God would not draw a sinner anyway... Paul was converted after his brush with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

No need to read further. This is untrue, so the rest is as well.

I agree, I am not a Calvinist so please correct me if I am wrong. @bcbsr Calvinism teaches a doctrine of "Total Depravity'. Many incorrectly believe that it means we are totally sinful and every part of are being is evil. This is incorrect. It means that every aspect of our being is stained or has been corrupted by sin. As a result, there is nothing about us that is good enough to offer in return for salvation. Through this doctrine, we have a will, but it isn't free. Rather, it is a slave to sin and we are spiritually dead to sin. So to suggest anyone can chose to be saved is like suggesting that a prisoner can choose to leave their cell or a corpse can choose to come back to life. Scripture says that nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). So yes, faith is required as part of salvation, however, that saving faith is a gift of grace by the Holy Spirit.

 

[bcbsr]

Whatever you want to call it, it’s a flat-out lie as to what Calvinists believe. The rest that followed it was just further nonsense about what is taught in Reformed Theology, and because of that, your conclusion does not match up with reality.

If what you say is true, you should have no problem finding plethora of Reformed Theology writings that support your understanding. But you will not find one.

So once again, in your ignorance, you deny that Calvinism holds that election to eternal life or eternal damnation occurs before birth, a fate of which cannot be changed. I've already provided proof of that.

 

[bcbsr]

Are you saying that a person who desires his own will instead of God's can't be changed by God?

I'm saying that under Calvinism election is not contingent upon a person's desires.

 

[bcbsr]

Then mercy starts with free will of choice.
Blessings

Good point. And it's the kind of point I'll be bringing up in a future thread if I don't get banned in the mean time. For if people are mere puppets devoid of free will then mercy has no relevance, nor does justice. But as you notice, pride filled Calvinists who think they know it all and accuse others of knowing nothing seem incapable of carrying on a rational conversation or of even exercising basic reading comprehension skills. Point proven by this thread.

 

[bcbsr]

Both propositions are false. The first is only false because it misrepresents your opponent's position. The second is false, because it is completely illogical. The opposing position is that the builder planned a structure. He started building it because he planned it. He finally had a structure because he built it. That is the Calvinist position, and it's the only one that makes sense.

The first phrase is the thesis born out by the premise Calvinism makes. It doesn't misrepresent my opponent's position. Rather it logically follows, as I've shown throughout this thread, based upon the Calvinist premise. I'm confident that rational people will be able to see that and as well see how my opponents have been attempting to avoid that fact.

 

[bcbsr]

What could Hitler have done to be saved?

Under Calvinism - nothing. Either he was already elect to eternal life prior to him being born, or he was elect to eternal damnation prior to him being born, and no action on his part could change that fact.

Under Biblical Theology Hitler could have been saved by believing upon the Lord Jesus.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31

 

[bcbsr]

Coming to faith did not change the fact that the person was elect to salvation. That's true. But there is a proximate sense in which faith does change our fate. There is a time when even the elect are children of wrath and not yet justified.

The concept of "fate" is an absolute. You can't resolve the Calvinist conundrum by proposing that it kind of was changed and it kind of wasn't changed, else it's not fate.

 

[bcbsr]

I agree, I am not a Calvinist so please correct me if I am wrong. @bcbsr Calvinism teaches a doctrine of "Total Depravity'. Many incorrectly believe that it means we are totally sinful and every part of are being is evil. This is incorrect. It means that every aspect of our being is stained or has been corrupted by sin. As a result, there is nothing about us that is good enough to offer in return for salvation. Through this doctrine, we have a will, but it isn't free. Rather, it is a slave to sin and we are spiritually dead to sin. So to suggest anyone can chose to be saved is like suggesting that a prisoner can choose to leave their cell or a corpse can choose to come back to life. Scripture says that nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). So yes, faith is required as part of salvation, however, that saving faith is a gift of grace by the Holy Spirit.

Again, has nothing to do with the OP. Didn't even mention sin the OP. The issue is the Calvinist view of Election.

 

[bcbsr]

Wrong. You misrepresent Calvinism.

Under Calvinism, salvific faith is the gift of God that is part and parcel with regeneration. That faith is the result of or even the very fact of God in us. It is not we who generate it.

You take the truth of what is said and pervert it to mean what it does not.

Furthermore, your claim that (apparently you suppose is logical) that according to Calvinism there is nothing a person can do, as if you have no responsibility, either you are or are not chosen, so nothing else matters (yes that is the same thing you are saying, if taken to its logical extreme), and that you may as well simply say you are saved from before you were saved --NO, God uses means to accomplish what he set out to do. You may as well say, Christ had no reason to die, since it was all said and done from before Creation. That is by no means Calvin, nor Reformed teaching.

I am not your typical Calvinist, by the way. So I can with impudence note that the Philippian jailer was afraid for his life --not for his salvation, in spite of what the usual Christian use of the verse has been. You will find it hard to prove from the verse and context, that Paul is referring to what Christendom has spiritualized it to say. The principle you hope to prove may well be true. But your text by itself does not support it. But either way, Calvinism does not disinherit belief. It is altogether necessary --in fact, we claim it is unavoidable, that the regenerated will indeed believe. And not only believe but pursue to the end. That does not relinquish anyone of his duty and need to pursue.

You have built a strawman, my friend. Yet it seems even your strawman is near too strong for you to knock down. Do you really think the gift of salvation is free, if there is something you can do, without which it will not be given?

The Calvinist misconception of saving faith being a gift is not in dispute in this thread. I can leave that for another thread. This thread is about the fatalistic view of Election according to Calvinism. But even your view that people are mere puppets into which God arbitrarily infuses saving faith goes along the same lines. Namely that the person himself doesn't have to believe in order to be saved, but rather a person's salvation is determined by God's arbitrary choice. And so you misconstrue not only the Acts 16:30,31 in some unspecified manner to get around that fact that Paul speaks in the imperative concerning faith, but no doubt you discard in like manner all of the scripture that speak likewise.

 

[Radagast]

So once again, in your ignorance, you deny that Calvinism holds that election to eternal life or eternal damnation occurs before birth

That doesn't change the fact that in Calvinism, salvation is by faith.

 

[bcbsr]

That doesn't change the fact that in Calvinism, salvation is by faith.

The fact that Calvinism holds that people are elect to eternal life prior to birth and not based on God's foreknowledge of their faith introduces a conundrum in Calvinism. Mainly that people are fated to eternal life from birth and your statement that Calvinism holds that salvation doesn't occur until much later. That's the kind of contradiction which is the point of this thread. Calvinism is logically inconsistent.

Consider prior to faith, were those elect to eternal life in danger of going to hell? No, not according to Calvinism. And after faith that fate didn't change. So faith had no impact with regards to one's eternal fate.

 

[tampasteve]

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[Hammster]

I agree, I am not a Calvinist so please correct me if I am wrong. @bcbsr Calvinism teaches a doctrine of "Total Depravity'. Many incorrectly believe that it means we are totally sinful and every part of are being is evil. This is incorrect. It means that every aspect of our being is stained or has been corrupted by sin. As a result, there is nothing about us that is good enough to offer in return for salvation. Through this doctrine, we have a will, but it isn't free. Rather, it is a slave to sin and we are spiritually dead to sin. So to suggest anyone can chose to be saved is like suggesting that a prisoner can choose to leave their cell or a corpse can choose to come back to life. Scripture says that nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). So yes, faith is required as part of salvation, however, that saving faith is a gift of grace by the Holy Spirit.

That’s pretty good.

 

[tampasteve]

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