The Horrors of UK's Single Payer System

[Arcangl86]

The NHS is a completely state run health care system, which is not what people are proposing for Medicare for all.

 

[Speedwell]

The NHS is a completely state run health care system, which is not what people are proposing for Medicare for all.

Shhh! Details like that don't matter when you're ranting about **SOCIALISM**

 

[Hank77]

You probably don't know this, but there are programs for the "less well-off" including Medicaid in the US. Any person can walk into any hospital in the US and must be treated regardless of ability to pay. The homeless person who (intentionally in many cases now) gets hit by a car, gets the same ambulance ride to the hospital, same care, same food, same drugs, etc. as an insured.

The patient, 46-year-old Spendi Rusitovski, visited the Ascension Southeast Wisconsin hospital Dec. 17 with chest pains. The hospital ordered a sonogram test for him that uncovered "an issue," and his primary physician wanted to admit him "due to the serious nature of the sonogram results," according to police and medical examiner reports.


But the hospital did not have available beds early that afternoon, so Mr. Rusitovski and his wife were instructed to return to their home and wait for a call when a bed became available, his wife said. The reports did not say what time they left the hospital.
Patient dies hours after being turned away from Wisconsin hospital: A patient at a Franklin, Wis., hospital died of heart disease hours after being sent home to wait for a bed to be freed up for him, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

 

[Belk]

The US demographic is very different than almost all other countries.

What is different about it and why would it matter?

We also have a healthcare system that is unique and in some ways the envy of other countries.

Odd then that they do not emulate it.

When the wealthy of many of these "64" need advanced healthcare or procedures, where do they go?

Lots of different places.

And if you destroyed that system to satisfy a socialist agenda, where would they or anyone that could raise money go?

Why is that important?

What incentive would there be to improve things when the government is in charge?

First you need to show that things would not improve.

Look at Medicare and Medicaid. They're incredibly inefficient and bogged down with red tape. But you see that as a panacea.

According to whom based on what evidence?

The truth is there are problems with all of the systems. We should keep what we have and improve THAT!

Improving our system is the whole point of going towards a model were more people have access to health care.

I always find it amusing that the left keeps telling us that socialism is great, even though it hasn't worked well elsewhere. They tell us it just hasn't been done "right". That's what they're saying about these failing countries.

I always find it amusing when the right tells us that using our taxes to support a private industry is socialism.

 

[Tanj]

US heath insurers and patients foot the bill for most of the R&D of Big Pharma....something those in the UK fail to recognize and appreciate.

On the contrary, I recognise and appreciate it all the time. You are however, the first American I have met that is proud to subsidise my healthcare

Personally, I requested an MRI from my doc 2 1/2 years ago and 5 days later was in the latest open MRI machine having my scan.

Personally, my doc decided I needed an MRI, (because what hideous and ridiculous kind of healthcare system has the patients requesting procedures) I had my scan the day after the request.

My co-pay was $0. What was yours?

Virtually no wait time, just fitting it into my schedule. I'll take that vs. a 3+ month wait. BTW, dealing with Medicare is no picnic. It's a bureaucratic nightmare in many cases while also being fraught with mismanagement, waste and fraud.

I took a form my doctor already filled out and flashed them my medicare card.

Are there flaws and problems in the US system? Yes, and no one denies this. But a radical shift to a Medicare for All plan would not solve them.

It would make them much better, especially if you didn't use the NHS model.

 

[Gene2memE]

Keep in mind, the author of that opinion piece is president of the Pacific Research Institute, an organisation that never met an intervention into libertarian style free market economics it couldn't complain about.

Its also important to note that while medical personnel shortages do exist in the NHS (and the situation is not particularly good in an international comparison), the numbers on doctor and nurse shortages have been massively exacerbated by Brexit, in two ways.

Since the Brexit vote, foreign medical personnel working in the UK have either departed the country, and those not living in the UK have either not applied to work in the country or have applications to work rejected. In 2018, 10% of doctors and 7% of nurses were EU nationals.

From the NHS itself: In 2015/16, 11% of those joining the NHS were EU nationals. In 2016/17, this fell to 9%, and in 2017/18 the figure was 7.9%. For nurses the percentage of EU joiners fell from 19% in 2015/16 to 12.4% in 2016/17, then further to 7.9% in 2017/18.

Similarly, UK doctors/nurses working internationally have delayed returning to the UK, due to the situation around Brexit. Influx of doctors returning to the UK was down by 22% in 2017/2018.

Also, that death rate comparison is not a like for like (apples to apples) comparison. If you read the actual study - instead of the Daily Mail beat up - you'll note that the cohort in the US was generally healthier and younger and with much lower ancillary issues. Even case-adjustment doesn't give a proper picture, for that you'd need full adverse effects treatment study.

The US private system does post surgical care better than the UK - probably better than anywhere else in the world - but using system wide measures of case-adjusted mortality shows very little differences in mortality rates between the US and the UK. There's a 2016 meta study that shows the serious elective surgery mortality rate in the UK is about 21% higher than in the US. While that's not a good outcome for the NHS, its nowhere near as bad as is being suggested.

 

[Fantine]

Your article is one of the few that indicate universal health would be worse than the status quo, or God forbid, the pre-ACA status quo.

An outlier, sort of like the 3% of climate scientists on the payrolls of oil companies who say "no problem..."

 

[USincognito]

Yes, and we the taxpayer have to cover these costs. Costs that could be lowered if there was a public option for healthcare in the US. Costs that could be mitigated if the person had been receiving preventative healthcare throughout their life instead of waiting until there's a medical emergency to see a doctor.

Some want to embrace the penny wise pound foolish approach to health care.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The patient, 46-year-old Spendi Rusitovski, visited the Ascension Southeast Wisconsin hospital Dec. 17 with chest pains. The hospital ordered a sonogram test for him that uncovered "an issue," and his primary physician wanted to admit him "due to the serious nature of the sonogram results," according to police and medical examiner reports.


But the hospital did not have available beds early that afternoon, so Mr. Rusitovski and his wife were instructed to return to their home and wait for a call when a bed became available, his wife said. The reports did not say what time they left the hospital.
Patient dies hours after being turned away from Wisconsin hospital: A patient at a Franklin, Wis., hospital died of heart disease hours after being sent home to wait for a bed to be freed up for him, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Here's one that happened across the street from my wife's old house:

Somerville Hospital apologizes after death of woman outside

Officials at the parent company of Somerville Hospital apologized Wednesday night for not meeting “our own standards for transparency and accountability” in the death of Laura Levis, who went to the emergency room during a severe 2016 asthma attack and found the door locked.

The story, written by Levis’s husband, Peter DeMarco, chronicled Levis’s asthma attack before dawn on the morning of Sept. 16, 2016. Levis’s attack led her to Somerville Hospital, but she never made it through the door. DeMarco’s narrative detailed the communication errors, overburdened staffs, and lack of fail-safes that plagued the response of police, fire, and hospital staff to Levis’s medical emergency.

Some 10 minutes passed between the time Levis called 911 and the time was she was found, in cardiac arrest following the asthma attack, mere feet from an entrance to the hospital’s emergency room. She spent seven days in an intensive care unit at CHA Cambridge Hospital, which is also owned by the alliance, before dying on Sept. 22, 2016. She was 34.

And if you've got some time and are in the mood to cry and scream at things, here's the full story, written by her husband:
Losing Laura

 

[Veritas]

Yes, and we the taxpayer have to cover these costs. Costs that could be lowered if there was a public option for healthcare in the US. Costs that could be mitigated if the person had been receiving preventative healthcare throughout their life instead of waiting until there's a medical emergency to see a doctor.

That's pure speculation. We have Obamacare and people are avoiding care because the deductibles are so high. It's absolute fantasy to assume that Medicare for all will magically solve our problems. There are endemic issues that aren't even being addressed.

 

[Veritas]

Do you have health insurance? If yes, who is paying for it?

Why is my personal status your concern?

 

[Veritas]

What is different about it and why would it matter?

Oh, you know the answer to that. But keep sweeping it under the rug.

Odd then that they do not emulate it.

Why would they? They can come here.

Why is that important?

The world needs a beacon of hope.

According to whom based on what evidence?

You don't seriously deny that, do you? I deal with Medicare all the time for my stepdad and it's a nightmare. Doctors don't like it either.

Improving our system is the whole point of going towards a model were more people have access to health care.

Funny, that was what Obamacare was suppose to do. It's clear that was a failure. However, it was likely suppose to be so the left could then say, "see, we need socialized healthcare".

I always find it amusing when the right tells us that using our taxes to support a private industry is socialism.

Where did I say that? What you describe is Corporatism. If our healthcare was actually run in true free-market Capitalistic fashion, we could solve a lot of the problems. I was born before most people had any health insurance or Medicare or Medicaid existed. The cost of my birth including hospital stay, food, nursing, etc.? $250. Adjusted for inflation, that would be about $2100 in today's dollars. What is the cost today for an birth in a hospital with no complications? Over $32,000!

 

[Veritas]

On the contrary, I recognise and appreciate it all the time. You are however, the first American I have met that is proud to subsidise my healthcare

Where did I say I was proud? Frankly, I'm annoyed that American's pay so darn much for meds so that people in other countries don't have to.

Personally, my doc decided I needed an MRI, I had my scan the day after the request.

My co-pay was $0. What was yours?

If you are actually in Australia, this is likely not true. The US has 35.5 MRI machines per capital vs. Australia's 13.4.
Per capita, the U.S. has three times as many MRI machines than comparable countries on average - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

Further, according to Australia's own data, you are only allowed a referral for an MRI for certain very specific conditions to licensed machines, either partially or fully. For all other conditions or machines, it is 100% out-of-pocket. Even with MBS coverage, the average cost out-of-pocket to a patient in 2016 was $184.

Sadly, the MBS does not cover breast MRI's. Here's the cost breakdown.


Breast Cancer Network Australia (BCNA) submitted that as a breast MRI is not included on the MBS, patients face high out-of-pocket costs for this scan which varies significantly between radiology practices.78 In response to a survey conducted by BCNA, a respondent noted that 'my surgeon recommends having an MRI but it is very expensive. It seems unfair that this valuable test is only available to women who can afford it.'79 3.53 Research conducted by Deloitte Access Economics showed that a breast MRI can cost between $450 and $1500 and over half of women paid at least $753 for the MRI scan.80 BCNA added that young women who are diagnosed with breast cancer face further financial strain as they often do not have the life savings which older women have to fund their treatment.81

There are usually wait times that can extend into weeks, again, according to the countries own data. Here's the report: Chapter 3 is the relevant.

 

[Veritas]

what hideous and ridiculous kind of healthcare system has the patients requesting procedures

One where the people are free to choose because they know their own bodies. MRI's are not surgery, afterall!

 

[iluvatar5150]

One where the people are free to choose because they know their own bodies.

How's that working out re: measles? People are idiots prone to believing nonsense and acting irrationally.

 

[Belk]

Oh, you know the answer to that. But keep sweeping it under the rug.

No, I don't which is why I asked the questions.

Why would they? They can come here.

Well, one would think if they envy it they would use it there. Unless there is some reason they do not want it in their own country?

The world needs a beacon of hope.

A beacon of hope for people who can raise money for medical procedures? I think they have plenty of options.

You don't seriously deny that, do you? I deal with Medicare all the time for my stepdad and it's a nightmare. Doctors don't like it either.

So according to you dealing with this for one person? I'll take the opinion of the doctor my wife works for who loves taking Medicare patients.

Funny, that was what Obamacare was suppose to do. It's clear that was a failure.

There are now 20.5 million fewer uninsured Americans than since 2010

Obamacare kept reducing uninsured rate during Trump's first months in office

However, it was likely suppose to be so the left could then say, "see, we need socialized healthcare".

No, that is in no way likely and is in fact ludicrous.

Where did I say that? What you describe is Corporatism. If our healthcare was actually run in true free-market Capitalistic fashion, we could solve a lot of the problems.

Very well. Show me the data for countries that have a true free-market capitalistic health care system that supports this claim.

I was born before most people had any health insurance or Medicare or Medicaid existed. The cost of my birth including hospital stay, food, nursing, etc.? $250. Adjusted for inflation, that would be about $2100 in today's dollars. What is the cost today for an birth in a hospital with no complications? Over $32,000!

Yes. Private insurance has been a factor in the rise of health care. I agree. It is not everything but it is an issue.

 

[Allandavid]

If you are actually in Australia, this is likely not true. The US has 35.5 MRI machines per capital vs. Australia's 13.4.

At the risk of you suggesting that I am a liar as well, I can emulate Tanj’s experience.

18 months ago, I undertook a series of procedures, including lung function tests, cardiac stress tests and an MRI. The longest wait I had was for the stress test - 5 days - because I had work commitments. All the other testing was performed within 48 hours of my GP booking it in for me. And I am a public patient and my procedures were bulk billed, therefore costing me nothing...

 

[SarahsKnight]

Shhh! Details like that don't matter when you're ranting about **SOCIALISM**

I can't wait to hear what campfire horror stories we'll be hearing about it if Old Man Bernie becomes the next President.

 

[super animator]

How's that working out re: measles? People are idiots prone to believing nonsense and acting irrationally.

You may not realize this, but @Veritas is an anti-vacciner .

 

[yougottabekidding]

I was without insurance for a while when I moved home from the UK. In my experience, yes it was worse there with coverage than without here.
Here, you might get in debt for a hospital visit. There, you might not even get a doctor to see you.

I have a close business associate who is Canadian. He holds a duel citizenship and is part of the Canadian Health Care System. When he needs medical attention he comes to the states. When I asked why, he said better to pay for medical service now, than die waiting for it.