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The Horrors of UK's Single Payer System

PeachyKeane

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I have a close business associate who is Canadian. He holds a duel citizenship and is part of the Canadian Health Care System. When he needs medical attention he comes to the states. When I asked why, he said better to pay for medical service now, than die waiting for it.

For what kind of procedures? I imagine this guy is fairly wealthy?

I lived in Canada for almost six years. That's certainly not what I experienced. I did have to wait for doctors sometimes, but never for anything where my life was at risk.
 
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yougottabekidding

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For what kind of procedures? I imagine this guy is fairly wealthy?

I lived in Canada for almost six years. That's certainly not what I experienced. I did have to wait for doctors sometimes, but never for anything where my life was at risk.

You know, friends and business people just don't get real in depth on medical procedures - that would creepy.
 
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Belk

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You know, friends and business people just don't get real in depth on medical procedures - that would creepy.

Then perhaps we should not be using their anecdotes as evidence on making policy decisions.
 
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PeachyKeane

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You know, friends and business people just don't get real in depth on medical procedures - that would creepy.

So it could have been plastic surgery, or lasik surgery, or tattoo removal for all you know?

Good story.

I assume he was a Canadian resident?
 
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yougottabekidding

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he said better to pay for medical service now, than die waiting for it.

So it could have been plastic surgery, or lasik surgery, or tattoo removal for all you know?

Good story.

I assume he was a Canadian resident?

Doesn't sound like some you would say about tattoo removal, or plastic surgery and if you knew him, you would be laughing.

He has dual citizenship - residences in both countries.
 
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PeachyKeane

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Doesn't sound like some you would say about tattoo removal, or plastic surgery and if you knew him, you would be laughing.

He has dual citizenship - residences in both countries.

So he may not even qualify for health care in Canada. It seems to me your primary residence must be in Canada, and you must be present in the country x number of days of the year.
 
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yougottabekidding

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So he may not even qualify for health care in Canada. It seems to me your primary residence must be in Canada, and you must be present in the country x number of days of the year.

No, I've already told you he can use the Canadian system -
 
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PeachyKeane

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No, I've already told you he can use the Canadian system -

I'm not sure that's a thing if your primary residence isn't in Canada.

Does he pay taxes in Canada and the US? It would be pretty financially stupid if he did. Does he have health insurance in the US?
 
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Tanj

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Does he pay taxes in Canada and the US? It would be pretty financially stupid if he did.

US citizens pay US tax no matter where they live...it is, as you say, pretty stupid.
 
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Always in His Presence

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I'm not sure that's a thing if your primary residence isn't in Canada.

Does he pay taxes in Canada and the US? It would be pretty financially stupid if he did. Does he have health insurance in the US?

Good grief man. What next? Do you want his name and address, perhaps his shoe size?

The guys said his business partner live in both countries and has access to both Canadian Health care and chooses to pay for healthcare in the US.

How many times does he have to restate the same thing?
 
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rubyshoes

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More than one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

Whilst I appreciate the topic of healthcare is hotly debated, it doesn't do well to post statistics without some background knowledge on how these targets and are set and measured.

One of the best examples of this is the cancer stats provided in your original post - aka the 1 in 5 patents waiting longer than 2 months for treatment stat.

From the last 2018 NHS performance figures (taking Feb 2018 as the example month), cancer referral to treatment times were as follows:

- 95.2% of people in February 2018 were seen by a specialist within two weeks of an urgent GP referral for suspected cancer. The operational standard specifies that 93% of patients should be seen within this time.

- 97.6% of patients in February 2018 received a first definitive treatment for a new primary cancer. The operational standard specifies that 96% of patients should be treated within this time (31 days).

- 81.0% of patients received a first definitive treatment for cancer following an urgent GP referral for suspected cancer within 62 days in February 2018, this equates to 9,004 patients being treated within the standard. The operational standard specifies that 85% of patients should be treated within this time.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...performance-statistics-summary-Feb_Mar-18.pdf

Now people may look at the 81% figure and target of 85% and think that is low, especially since the other two targets are in the mid 90s . This is largely due to how NHS referral and treatment times are assessed and monitored.

Essentially, once a patient is referred for suspected cancer treatment, their treatment 'clock' starts. This clock will remain 'ticking' under all circumstances unless a patient declines treatment or does not attend an appointment (in which case the 'clock' is 'paused' until they contact the hospital to re-arrange the appointment.

In the case of cancer patients, the clock will remain ticking even if a patient cancels multiple appointments, if they choose to delay treatment for a personal reason or if they are too unwell to begin a treatment regime. In those cases, if a patient chooses to take a once in a lifetime holiday before starting multiple rounds of chemo and surgery etc, they will be recorded as in breech of the target even though this was their own choice. They will also be recorded as in breech of the other two targets if they choose to delay diagnostic testing or whilst they go home to think about treatment options/seek second opinions etc.

The 85% target takes into account that the majority of patients with cancer are older and may not be in the best of health. Other complex healthcare issues they have may need stabilising or additional treatment before they are healthy enough to survive surgery/radiation/chemo. During this period, the clock that started from the GP referral is still ticking, even though the patient is undergoing medical intervention to make the suitable for cancer treatment.

One example would be:

- Dave is diagnosed with Renal Cancer
- He is in a lot of pain due to bone mets in his spine
- Dave and his doctor decide he should have surgery on his back to make him more comfortable before chemo

During this time, the clock is still ticking into a breech of target because it will only stop once Dave starts chemo for the renal cancer, even if the back surgery and subsequent recovery needs to come first.

This is absolutely not to say that some breeches don't happen for other reasons that ARE the hospitals fault - some hospitals perform far better than others in this regard. But the setting and monitoring of these targets is more complex than a simple '1 in 5 patients wait longer than 2 months for treatment' statement.

Here is a list of times when a 'pause' to the clock can and cant be applied:

• DNA of first appointment after referral resets the clock
• Patient choice pauses stop the clock for treatment
• No pause for diagnostics
• No pause for thinking time
• No pause for co-morbidities
• No pause for fertility treatment, menstruation or pregnancy
• No pause for religious requirements
• No pause for exceptional funding approval
• No pause for pandemic flu
• No pause for adverse weather
• No pause for hospital acquired infections
• No pause for a second opinion
 
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cow451

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Thank you for the information. All I can say is "Lord help us avoid a single payer health system."
Praise God many Americans have the superior No Payer system.
 
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cow451

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cow451

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The US demographic is very different than almost all other countries. We also have a healthcare system that is unique and in some ways the envy of other countries. When the wealthy of many of these "64" need advanced healthcare or procedures, where do they go? And if you destroyed that system to satisfy a socialist agenda, where would they or anyone that could raise money go? What incentive would there be to improve things when the government is in charge? Look at Medicare and Medicaid. They're incredibly inefficient and bogged down with red tape. But you see that as a panacea. The truth is there are problems with all of the systems. We should keep what we have and improve THAT!

I always find it amusing that the left keeps telling us that socialism is great, even though it hasn't worked well elsewhere. They tell us it just hasn't been done "right". That's what they're saying about these failing countries.
Socialism seems to have been good enough for the United States Armed Forces.
 
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cow451

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You probably don't know this, but there are programs for the "less well-off" including Medicaid in the US. Any person can walk into any hospital in the US and must be treated regardless of ability to pay. The homeless person who (intentionally in many cases now) gets hit by a car, gets the same ambulance ride to the hospital, same care, same food, same drugs, etc. as an insured.
You should try that without insurance first. The hospital ER has only to stabilize you.

Now tell us who pays for that “free” care.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Is it worse than having no insurance at al
Yes, and we the taxpayer have to cover these costs. Costs that could be lowered if there was a public option for healthcare in the US. Costs that could be mitigated if the person had been receiving preventative healthcare throughout their life instead of waiting until there's a medical emergency to see a doctor.
but that only works if one the person seeks it and number two the person seeks it often enough to matter. In other words, often that prevention treatment may still find something too late, and if I have to wait two and three years it really does not matter how it is caught.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You should try that without insurance first. The hospital ER has only to stabilize you.

Now tell us who pays for that “free” care.
and stabilizing is all they are required to do.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I think we're supposed to ignore that horror. Along with the horror of being bankrupted by a medical emergency, losing one's insurance if their company goes out of business, or being denied because an insurance company doesn't want to cover something.
If you go into bankrupt ( especially chapter seven your medical bills are gone. Moreover if the person that incurred the bill passes ( whether or not it is caused by the medical condition for which the bills were incurred the heirs are not liable for the bills. Same goes for ANY debt the deceased incurred alone a car, a house, a credit care personal loan does not matter. IF the debt is SOLELY in the deceased name then the heirs pretty much get it wiped out.
 
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dogs4thewin

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What would happen to a person with a terminal illness requiring palliative care. If they had no insurance, would they be denied treatment, or would there be some facility for them to receive care?
If the person is honest to goodness terminal then really there is not treatment to give, but yes many hotpices do operate on a sliding scale and Medicare and Medicaid do cover hotpice care.
 
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