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The Horrors of UK's Single Payer System

Veritas

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While the American people are being bombarded with pro "Medicare for All" propaganda from exuberant democrats and buying into it (until they realize the price tag will double their taxes), the potential disaster of such an expensive system is being glossed over. We need only look across the Pond to see what problems can arise. Here are some actual data to show that Single Payer isn't always rosier and in fact can be worse than what the US currently has. Further, the US has a very different demographic and US heath insurers and patients foot the bill for most of the R&D of Big Pharma....something those in the UK fail to recognize and appreciate.

U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer

The United Kingdom's National Health Service, which celebrated its 70th anniversary on July 5, is imploding.

Vacancies for doctor and nurse positions have reached all-time highs. Patients are facing
interminable waits for care as a result. This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The NHS has struggled to fully staff its hospitals and clinics since its inception in 1948. But today, the shortages are growing worse. 9% of physician posts are vacant. That's a shortfall of nearly
11,500 doctors.

The NHS is also short
42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.

The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May,
4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than
one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost
30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

In some cases, the NHS has refused to provide treatment at all. In June, NHS England said that it would discontinue coverage of
17 procedures, including tonsillectomies and knee arthroscopies for osteoarthritis patients.

Even when patients receive treatment, the quality of care is poor. Patients in British hospitals are four times more likely to die than in U.S. hospitals, according to an analysis of outcomes from 2,000 similar surgeries conducted by researchers from University College London and Columbia University in New York. Among the more severely ill patients, the disparity was worse; the sickest Brits were
seven times more likely to die.

Of course, there are those that may have different outcomes and experiences on both sides. However, we're not talking about individual cases but rather averages which the only data that matters when looking at the issue. Personally, I requested an MRI from my doc 2 1/2 years ago and 5 days later was in the latest open MRI machine having my scan. Virtually no wait time, just fitting it into my schedule. I'll take that vs. a 3+ month wait. BTW, dealing with Medicare is no picnic. It's a bureaucratic nightmare in many cases while also being fraught with mismanagement, waste and fraud.

Are there flaws and problems in the US system? Yes, and no one denies this. But a radical shift to a Medicare for All plan would not solve them.
 

nChrist

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Thank you for the information. All I can say is "Lord help us avoid a single payer health system."
 
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LaSorcia

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Having been a UK resident for several years, I can attest that this type of medical system isn't the utopia so many seem to think it is.
I wish people would consider the idea of making insurance companies non-profit.
 
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LaSorcia

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Is it worse than having no insurance at all?
I was without insurance for a while when I moved home from the UK. In my experience, yes it was worse there with coverage than without here.
Here, you might get in debt for a hospital visit. There, you might not even get a doctor to see you.
 
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Anthony2019

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All I can say is I have relied on the National Health Service all of my life and so has my family and many of my friends.

In our experience, the care has been second to none and I know many people who would be dead if it wasn't for the NHS.

In my opinion, the hallmark of a truly civilised society is how it treats its citizens who are in need. That is why I support universal healthcare and will always defend it.

Despite the imperfections of the NHS, I would much sooner have a universal healthcare service that gives equal treatment to all, regardless of ability to pay, rather than a system that leaves the less well-off to fend for themselves.
 
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Belk

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While the American people are being bombarded with pro "Medicare for All" propaganda from exuberant democrats and buying into it (until they realize the price tag will double their taxes), the potential disaster of such an expensive system is being glossed over. We need only look across the Pond to see what problems can arise. Here are some actual data to show that Single Payer isn't always rosier and in fact can be worse than what the US currently has. Further, the US has a very different demographic and US heath insurers and patients foot the bill for most of the R&D of Big Pharma....something those in the UK fail to recognize and appreciate.

U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer

The United Kingdom's National Health Service, which celebrated its 70th anniversary on July 5, is imploding.

Vacancies for doctor and nurse positions have reached all-time highs. Patients are facing
interminable waits for care as a result. This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The NHS has struggled to fully staff its hospitals and clinics since its inception in 1948. But today, the shortages are growing worse. 9% of physician posts are vacant. That's a shortfall of nearly
11,500 doctors.

The NHS is also short
42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.

The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May,
4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than
one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost
30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

In some cases, the NHS has refused to provide treatment at all. In June, NHS England said that it would discontinue coverage of
17 procedures, including tonsillectomies and knee arthroscopies for osteoarthritis patients.

Even when patients receive treatment, the quality of care is poor. Patients in British hospitals are four times more likely to die than in U.S. hospitals, according to an analysis of outcomes from 2,000 similar surgeries conducted by researchers from University College London and Columbia University in New York. Among the more severely ill patients, the disparity was worse; the sickest Brits were
seven times more likely to die.

Of course, there are those that may have different outcomes and experiences on both sides. However, we're not talking about individual cases but rather averages which the only data that matters when looking at the issue. Personally, I requested an MRI from my doc 2 1/2 years ago and 5 days later was in the latest open MRI machine having my scan. Virtually no wait time, just fitting it into my schedule. I'll take that vs. a 3+ month wait. BTW, dealing with Medicare is no picnic. It's a bureaucratic nightmare in many cases while also being fraught with mismanagement, waste and fraud.

Are there flaws and problems in the US system? Yes, and no one denies this. But a radical shift to a Medicare for All plan would not solve them.


Ok. So we should not model our healthcare on the NHS. Perhaps we should look at one of the other 64 countries that has it and improve upon their system?
 
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Anthony2019

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If life expectancy is a reliable indicator of how well a health service is performing, then I would say that countries such as Canada, the UK, Australia, Scandinavia, and many other countries that implement universal healthcare are performing very well.
 
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iluvatar5150

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The NHS has struggled to fully staff its hospitals and clinics since its inception in 1948. But today, the shortages are growing worse. 9% of physician posts are vacant. That's a shortfall of nearly 11,500 doctors.


I can't seem to find any newer data, but this survey from 2013 says that in the US, physician vacancies were almost double that (17.6%, page 4):

https://www.amnhealthcare.com/uploa...ights/Industry_Research/executivesurvey13.pdf


The NHS is also short
42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.


Yeah, that's not quite what that paper says.

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/bhw/nchwa/projections/NCHWA_HRSA_Nursing_Report.pdf

Even if "nearly all states" will have a surplus (which is, itself, not necessarily a good thing), several big states are projected to have sizeable shortfalls in the number of nurses, so it will still be the case that we'll have a lot of nursing vacancies.

Also worth noting is that that 17% vacancy rate among UK nurses is the same as the vacancy rate among nurses in that 2013 study to which I linked.
 
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Veritas

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If life expectancy is a reliable indicator of how well a health service is performing, then I would say that countries such as Canada, the UK, Australia, Scandinavia, and many other countries that implement universal healthcare are performing very well.

Unfortunately, it's not a reliable indicator of quality healthcare as has already been demonstrated. Living longer doesn't mean living better. As percentage of population, the US has just as many people over 100 as the UK.
 
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Veritas

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Ok. So we should not model our healthcare on the NHS. Perhaps we should look at on of the other 64 countries that has it and improve upon their system?

The US demographic is very different than almost all other countries. We also have a healthcare system that is unique and in some ways the envy of other countries. When the wealthy of many of these "64" need advanced healthcare or procedures, where do they go? And if you destroyed that system to satisfy a socialist agenda, where would they or anyone that could raise money go? What incentive would there be to improve things when the government is in charge? Look at Medicare and Medicaid. They're incredibly inefficient and bogged down with red tape. But you see that as a panacea. The truth is there are problems with all of the systems. We should keep what we have and improve THAT!

I always find it amusing that the left keeps telling us that socialism is great, even though it hasn't worked well elsewhere. They tell us it just hasn't been done "right". That's what they're saying about these failing countries.
 
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Veritas

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All I can say is I have relied on the National Health Service all of my life and so has my family and many of my friends.

In our experience, the care has been second to none and I know many people who would be dead if it wasn't for the NHS.

In my opinion, the hallmark of a truly civilised society is how it treats its citizens who are in need. That is why I support universal healthcare and will always defend it.

Despite the imperfections of the NHS, I would much sooner have a universal healthcare service that gives equal treatment to all, regardless of ability to pay, rather than a system that leaves the less well-off to fend for themselves.

You probably don't know this, but there are programs for the "less well-off" including Medicaid in the US. Any person can walk into any hospital in the US and must be treated regardless of ability to pay. The homeless person who (intentionally in many cases now) gets hit by a car, gets the same ambulance ride to the hospital, same care, same food, same drugs, etc. as an insured.
 
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PeachyKeane

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While the American people are being bombarded with pro "Medicare for All" propaganda from exuberant democrats and buying into it (until they realize the price tag will double their taxes), the potential disaster of such an expensive system is being glossed over. We need only look across the Pond to see what problems can arise. Here are some actual data to show that Single Payer isn't always rosier and in fact can be worse than what the US currently has. Further, the US has a very different demographic and US heath insurers and patients foot the bill for most of the R&D of Big Pharma....something those in the UK fail to recognize and appreciate.

U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer

The United Kingdom's National Health Service, which celebrated its 70th anniversary on July 5, is imploding.

Vacancies for doctor and nurse positions have reached all-time highs. Patients are facing
interminable waits for care as a result. This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The NHS has struggled to fully staff its hospitals and clinics since its inception in 1948. But today, the shortages are growing worse. 9% of physician posts are vacant. That's a shortfall of nearly
11,500 doctors.

The United States could see a shortage of up to 120,000 physicians by 2030, impacting patient care across the nation, according to new data published today by the AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges).

The NHS is also short
42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.

The U.S. is projected to experience a shortage of Registered Nurses (RNs) that is expected to intensify as Baby Boomers age and the need for health care grows. Compounding the problem is the fact that nursing schools across the country are struggling to expand capacity to meet the rising demand for care given the national move toward healthcare reform.


The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May,
4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

Unfortunately, Britain isn't blessed with a plan like ours where approximately 1 in 10 people have no insurance at all, and cannot seek healthcare without significant cost. This cuts our wait times significantly. Britain has to triage.

More than
one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

Yup, triage.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost
30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

In some cases, the NHS has refused to provide treatment at all. In June, NHS England said that it would discontinue coverage of
17 procedures, including tonsillectomies and knee arthroscopies for osteoarthritis patients.

Even when patients receive treatment, the quality of care is poor. Patients in British hospitals are four times more likely to die than in U.S. hospitals, according to an analysis of outcomes from 2,000 similar surgeries conducted by researchers from University College London and Columbia University in New York. Among the more severely ill patients, the disparity was worse; the sickest Brits were
seven times more likely to die.

study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage

Of course, this is before the ACA.

Of course, there are those that may have different outcomes and experiences on both sides. However, we're not talking about individual cases but rather averages which the only data that matters when looking at the issue. Personally, I requested an MRI from my doc 2 1/2 years ago and 5 days later was in the latest open MRI machine having my scan. Virtually no wait time, just fitting it into my schedule. I'll take that vs. a 3+ month wait. BTW, dealing with Medicare is no picnic. It's a bureaucratic nightmare in many cases while also being fraught with mismanagement, waste and fraud.

Are there flaws and problems in the US system? Yes, and no one denies this. But a radical shift to a Medicare for All plan would not solve them.

Well, one look at the World Health Organization's ranking of healthcare models shows that we are way behind the UK (19), and would certainly be a big improvement compared to our rating now (37). On the other hand, nearly every entry on the list above us, has a more-or-less government run healthcare system.

You kind of sound like someone driving a Ford Pinto mocking someone because his Toyota isn't a Rolls Royce.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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You probably don't know this, but there are programs for the "less well-off" including Medicaid in the US. Any person can walk into any hospital in the US and must be treated regardless of ability to pay. The homeless person who (intentionally in many cases now) gets hit by a car, gets the same ambulance ride to the hospital, same care, same food, same drugs, etc. as an insured.
Yes, and we the taxpayer have to cover these costs. Costs that could be lowered if there was a public option for healthcare in the US. Costs that could be mitigated if the person had been receiving preventative healthcare throughout their life instead of waiting until there's a medical emergency to see a doctor.
 
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Anthony2019

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You probably don't know this, but there are programs for the "less well-off" including Medicaid in the US. Any person can walk into any hospital in the US and must be treated regardless of ability to pay. The homeless person who (intentionally in many cases now) gets hit by a car, gets the same ambulance ride to the hospital, same care, same food, same drugs, etc. as an insured.
What would happen to a person with a terminal illness requiring palliative care. If they had no insurance, would they be denied treatment, or would there be some facility for them to receive care?
 
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KCfromNC

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Is it worse than having no insurance at all?
I think we're supposed to ignore that horror. Along with the horror of being bankrupted by a medical emergency, losing one's insurance if their company goes out of business, or being denied because an insurance company doesn't want to cover something.
 
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