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The Holy Trinity and Wisdom (Proverbs 8:22)

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by RDijkman, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. RDijkman

    RDijkman New Member

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    Dear all,
    I am an agnostic lawstudent at Leiden University. I follow the course 'Philosophy of Law' in wich we discuss the Biblical foundation of our modern day law and justice. Since English is not my native language I sincerely apologise in advance for any (grammatical) errors i may make.

    While reading Proverbs 8 i came across an 'entity' / 'being' that calls itself 'Wisdom' (Proverbs 8:13). I do not understand what or who this entity is, God made Wisdom before he made Heaven and earth. So i would say Wisdom and God are not the same being. Is Wisdom the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Holy Trinity? God is the Father, Jesus is the son, what is the Holy Spirit?
    I have read the Benson Commentary on Proverbs 8, but it is still not clear to me.

    I understand that this is most likely a very complicated subject, that might not be easy to explain on a forum, but i would be very grateful if someone could take the time to teach me.

    I thank you in advance and hope you all have a wonderful day.

    Kind regards,
    RDijkman
     
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  2. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Sometimes words have a deeper meaning to us, even if the one who is speaking doesn't know it. These deeper meanings are personally significant to us because they are relevant only to us and our own private concerns.

    When we begin to perceive these voices, we may choose to ignore them or learn from them.

    We must be very careful about believing what the spirits want to teach us. Saint John warns that not every spirit has been sent by God:

    Loved ones, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. You know the Spirit of God by this — every spirit that acknowledges that Christ Jesus has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anti-Christ, which you have heard is coming and now is already in the world.
    St. John, 1 John 4:1-3

    This is an excerpt of the page in a booklet I share, that gives a view of how to understand The Holy Spirit.

    So far as how it relates to your question, often we will get insights by overhearing what people say as we walk down the street. I think that is the main punch line of Proverbs 1:20-21. Some people are scared to open their mind to this, for fear that it is a mental disorder that they are experiencing.

    I think that for your topic, an understanding of what wisdom is can be useful too. If you consider Ecclesiastes 7:12, King Solomon observes that wisdom is a shelter in a similar way that money is a shelter. He also shows that it is wisdom that makes good use of knowledge so as to guard the life of the one who possesses it, whereas on the other hand, knowledge in the hands of a fool can be a destructive thing (Proverbs 18:21 and Matthew 11:25-26 came to mind as I said that).

    You have just tapped straight in to one of the greatest blessings that comes to us through Jesus' sacrifice (Hebrews 4:15): that He has been resurrected to intercede for us with an unchanging priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28). It is because He has been resurrected in order to complete His Messianic mission through us (Ephesians 4:11-16), that we can always receive His living Word to instruct us in the way to remain free of condemnation (consider Romans 8:1-4 in this context).

    A large component of our ability to receive heavenly wisdom, is our willingness to receive correction (hence the criteria in John 14:21 that we must first receive and keep His commandments so that He may reveal Himself to us).

    Good on you for asking!
     
  3. RDijkman

    RDijkman New Member

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    Dear Serving Zion,
    Thank you very much for your detailed reply. While i am sure i dont understand half of all the meaning behind the Holy Trinity and its relation with wisdom, i do feel i understand it a bit more. Thank you very much!
     
  4. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Trinitarianism is a difficult concept to convey - some comprehensions cannot be simply taught with speech, but require a development of the mind with lots of thinking and time :) I am positively impressed to see your approach, and I am grateful that you are pursuing to bring forth the fruits of wisdom in your chosen career. Not every person who studies law is so inclined, though many of Solomon's Proverbs would serve them well to observe.
     
  5. RDijkman

    RDijkman New Member

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    Thank you for your kind words, even though i was raised agnostic, I feel it is important to have atleast a basic understanding of the religion that played such an important role in the realisation of the western culture and society. And while i am not tempted to become a Christian at this moment, i do feel like i begin to understand (a very tiny bit) why people do. There is something beautiful about the bible, while at first (i.e. the story of Noach) i [please do accept my apology if this is a bit incoherent, it's 04 in the morning and i am pretty tired] just thought how in world can 2 of all animals fit in an arch for a couple of months, and why would God ever destroy everything he created, i feel like i kind off begin to understand. Thats not saying i agree with it though. Maybe that will come after some more reading :). You mentioned Solomon's Proverbs, could you please give some examples?
     
  6. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    There really is a lot to know about God's plan for redemption, and the very nature of humankind is working against us in realising that speedily (we are born with zero knowledge, easily misled, inclined to conceal inconvenient truths, oppressed by fears etc). Anyway, God does see all that goes on in forming our hearts, and He does judge fairly according to our reasons. There comes a time when we cannot keep going with an atheist perspective, whether we are still able to contribute in the world or not (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

    Christians recognise that Jesus came as the representation of God's own Word (message, command, voice) in human form for the purpose that we should recognise His Word in spirit. We disciples who have recognised Him, we follow His leadership and example to refine our own character and speech, that we can reflect His nature and thereby represent His voice in the world. You might well understand, based upon the various degrees of human faults, we progress in character through enduring various challenges and learning to live in a manner that is pleasing (and therefore useful) to Him (consider Romans 5:1-5, Matthew 7:15-27).

    One of the many interesting things that Jesus said, and one of the more potent, is John 15:22. This shows His righteousness in judgement, that ignorance and knowledge are key considerations in determining culpability. Jesus was saying in this that although He had existed as The Eternal Word of God before being born (this is the entity of wisdom that we have been discussing - the life-giving spirit), it is because He had always existed as a spirit speaking indirectly to us, that men could choose to ignore what He would place upon their conscience (Genesis 3:8-10). By His physical speech in human form, He has made a direct statement to the world that divides the righteous from the wicked (Jeremiah 17:10).

    As I am such a disciple, I often testify about how I did once live in denial of His conviction upon my conscience, and even while I was a professing Christian, I had fallen into a trap of deceit whereby I was not living according to His expectations of me. It should encourage you to see that this is not an isolated event, indeed many Christians are easily led astray by their beliefs and philosophies, to live contrary to The Holy Spirit's guidance in their life (though this also means they cannot be easily told so). I also testify that He sought me while I was in that condition and redeemed me to repent, so as to receive this knowledge. So now my recognition of Him in spirit serves to judge and instruct me as I go day by day, and because of this relationship, I have confidence that any person who accuses me of error (if they are not doing so in holy spirit), is simply mistaken and in need of correction. This is the power of 1 Timothy 2:5.

    With this confidence, knowing that I am representing Him to you with good conscience, and knowing the value of this opportunity to speak to you in that capacity, I advise you with regard to your quest for security in faith: that if you maintain reverence that God see's all things and that He judges in truth and righteousness without favouritism, and if you keep good conscience so as to not compromise truth (eg: for flattery, or to belong), and you are not dismissing or avoiding valid truths, then you can also trust Him to lead you to an eventual knowledge that He is with you.

    When Jesus said "I am the bread of life" and "I am the living water", this is what He was describing. If we keep on receiving what life is teaching us, making sure to not stop growing in truth with good conscience, eventually we become strong in what we have learned and we will recognise that it is Him, The Holy Spirit who we have been receiving from (aka "the spirit of truth" - in whom is only love without sin).

    .. so, now to answer your question about the Proverbs of Solomon! :)

    The two that came off the top of my head for you as a law student, are Proverbs 18:17 and Proverbs 25:8-10:

    "The first to plead his case seems right, until another comes and examines him."

    "Do not go out hastily to argue your case; Otherwise, what will you do in the end, When your neighbor humiliates you?"

    (in fact, that one is quite a specific application of Proverbs 18:13).

    .. as I opened the bible to make a list for you, it fell on chapter 21. These are the ones I see there that are easily relevant: Proverbs 21:15, Proverbs 21:28, Proverbs 21:5-8, Proverbs 21:14.

    .. but I think it would do you well to just take your time to digest the whole lot of them. It certainly wouldn't be wasted.

    Welcome to the website, BTW! I hope I have been worthwhile to you and that you will be open to asking more questions about Christianity here :)
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Early Christians often took the Wisdom tradition of the Jewish tradition along with the Logos tradition of the Greeks to comprehend the Logos as the Wisdom, Word, and Power of God (compare: 1 Corinthians 1:24); this Logos who became flesh and "dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten Son of the Father". Some of this can also be seen in Jewish philosophical work, such as Philo of Alexandria.

    This is why Hagia Sophia is so-called, it is the Church of Holy Wisdom, here "Holy Wisdom" refers to Jesus Christ.

    Sometimes the ancient Church fathers spoke of the Holy Spirit as Wisdom, but generally "Wisdom" is a title for Christ. Of course we don't believe Christ is created, He is uncreated; as the Son and Logos He is very God of very God, "begotten, not made" and "of one Being with the Father" as we say in the Nicene Creed.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  8. RDijkman

    RDijkman New Member

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    Dear Serving Zion and ViaCrucis, I am not ignoring you ore have forgotten to reply, it is just that I am extremely busy and haven't had the time to make a reply that's worthy of the time you took to teach me. It will come eventually. I promis! Good night
     
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