The Holy Spirit - Oneness Theology

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music4two

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The meaning of Spirit in both Hebrew and Greek mean the same thing. Breath or wind. Acts 2 there is the sound of a mighty rushing wind. We cannot see the wind but we can see the effects of the wind in the moving of the leaves in the trees or blowing sand. The ancient Hebrews were concrete thinkers and related everything to the five senses. The traveling/guiding winds were important to the nomadic herdsmen. The trade winds guided them in their journeys from pasture to pasture.

The Ancient Hebrew Research Center defines Holy and Spirit like this. --

When we use the word holy, as in a holy person, we usually associate this with a righteous or pious person. If we use this concept when interpreting the word holy in the Hebrew Bible then we are misreading the text as this is not the meaning of the Hebrew word qadosh. Qadosh literally means "to be set apart for a special purpose". A related word, qedesh, is one who is also set apart for a special purpose but not in the same way we think of "holy" but is a male prostitute (Deut 23:17). Israel was qadosh because they were separated by the other nations as servants of God. The furnishings in the tabernacle were qadosh as they were not to be used for anything except for the work in the tabernacle. While we may not think of ourselves as "holy" we are in fact set apart from the world to be God's servants and representatives.


The Hebrew word ru'ach literally means the wind and is derived from the parent root rach a prescribed path. The word rach is not found in the Biblical text but defined by the various child roots derived from it. The child roots derived from this parent root are arach, rachah and yarach. Arach is a traveler who follows a prescribed path from one place to another. Rachah is a millstone which goes round and round in the sense of following a prescribed path to crush grain into flour. Yarach is the root of yere'ach meaning the moon which follows a prescribed path in the night sky. The child root ru'ach is literally the wind that follows a prescribed path each season. By extension ru'ach means the wind of a man or what is usually translated as spirit. A man's wind is not just a spiritual entity within a man but is understood by the Ancient Hebrews as his character.

The Holy Spirit is the breath/presence of God that is set aside for the purpose of dealing with His creation. It is not a separate personification or second person of God. It is also interesting to note that the use of the term “The” before Holy Spirit is not found in inost cases in the Greek. Had thsse words been properly interpreted it would have said special breath or wind. Plug those words into the verses and a different meaning comes out. Not a third person of the trinity but a revealing of God’s working in his creation.

BTW Scripture says Mary was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit yet calls the Father his parent. So which person of the Trinity fathered Jesus? Does not work unless Holy Spirit is simply the breath of YHWH.
 
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Don't know about oneness and the other tags that get thrown around but I am not trinitarian.

As my understanding goes, the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of God's power, will, presence etc.

How does what you believe about the Holy Spirit compare with what the Scriptures actually reveal about the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the One Tri-Personal God?

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3


None of this can possibly be true of raw impersonal power?!

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The meaning of Spirit in both Hebrew and Greek mean the same thing. Breath or wind. Acts 2 there is the sound of a mighty rushing wind. We cannot see the wind but we can see the effects of the wind in the moving of the leaves in the trees or blowing sand. The ancient Hebrews were concrete thinkers and related everything to the five senses. The traveling/guiding winds were important to the nomadic herdsmen. The trade winds guided them in their journeys from pasture to pasture.

The Ancient Hebrew Research Center defines Holy and Spirit like this. --

When we use the word holy, as in a holy person, we usually associate this with a righteous or pious person. If we use this concept when interpreting the word holy in the Hebrew Bible then we are misreading the text as this is not the meaning of the Hebrew word qadosh. Qadosh literally means "to be set apart for a special purpose". A related word, qedesh, is one who is also set apart for a special purpose but not in the same way we think of "holy" but is a male prostitute (Deut 23:17). Israel was qadosh because they were separated by the other nations as servants of God. The furnishings in the tabernacle were qadosh as they were not to be used for anything except for the work in the tabernacle. While we may not think of ourselves as "holy" we are in fact set apart from the world to be God's servants and representatives.


The Hebrew word ru'ach literally means the wind and is derived from the parent root rach a prescribed path. The word rach is not found in the Biblical text but defined by the various child roots derived from it. The child roots derived from this parent root are arach, rachah and yarach. Arach is a traveler who follows a prescribed path from one place to another. Rachah is a millstone which goes round and round in the sense of following a prescribed path to crush grain into flour. Yarach is the root of yere'ach meaning the moon which follows a prescribed path in the night sky. The child root ru'ach is literally the wind that follows a prescribed path each season. By extension ru'ach means the wind of a man or what is usually translated as spirit. A man's wind is not just a spiritual entity within a man but is understood by the Ancient Hebrews as his character.

The Holy Spirit is the breath/presence of God that is set aside for the purpose of dealing with His creation. It is not a separate personification or second person of God. It is also interesting to note that the use of the term “The” before Holy Spirit is not found in inost cases in the Greek. Had thsse words been properly interpreted it would have said special breath or wind. Plug those words into the verses and a different meaning comes out. Not a third person of the trinity but a revealing of God’s working in his creation.

BTW Scripture says Mary was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit yet calls the Father his parent. So which person of the Trinity fathered Jesus? Does not work unless Holy Spirit is simply the breath of YHWH.

Same question, how does what you believe about the Holy Spirit compare with what the Scriptures actually reveal about the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the One Tri-Personal God?

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3


None of this can possibly be true of raw impersonal power?!

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music4two

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If I am an invisible spirit/breath or wind and I cvhoose to reveal myself to you, when you look at me what do you see? You see the way I have chosen to reveal myself. Simply put you see me. God chooses to reveal himself through the moving of His breath or wind. Of course He is a person, but the person is the one God, not some third person of the trinity.
 
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GraceSeeker

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BTW Scripture says Mary was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit yet calls the Father his parent. So which person of the Trinity fathered Jesus? Does not work unless Holy Spirit is simply the breath of YHWH.
Do you think that Jesus was "fathered" in a biological sense?
 
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If I am an invisible spirit/breath or wind and I choose to reveal myself to you, when you look at me what do you see? You see the way I have chosen to reveal myself. Simply put you see me.

So when the Scriptures declare that 'no man has seen God' or even that 'no man can see God and live' what does it mean?

God chooses to reveal himself through the moving of His breath or wind.

Amongst other means (Heb.1:1)

Of course He is a person, but the person is the one God, not some third person of the trinity.

Except that, according to the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, YHWH, unlike His human creatures, is not just 'a person'. YHWH, as the Eternal and Immutable Creator, Exists as Tri-Personal, not Mono-Personal.

Like I said, if you really want to know God better you could start by believing His revelation of Himself to us and stop pre-judging Him as being just a bigger non-corporeal version of us?

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Do you think that Jesus was "fathered" in a biological sense?

Not in the conventional sense (YHWH did not physically procreate with Mary) but the Messiah was biologically 'fathered' by the First Person of the Trinity by means of His Spirit (i.e. the Third Person of the Trinity) since the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of YHWH, is also the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son (the Father and the Son also Existing as the One, YHWH).

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k2svpete

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Or maybe you simply cannot rise to the challenge?

Simonline.

Hardly. If you had a coherent, feasible point you were arguing then it may be a challenge. I'm just sick of having posts deleted becasue they don't toe the trinitarian party line.
 
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Hardly. If you had a coherent, feasible point you were arguing then it may be a challenge. I'm just sick of having posts deleted becasue they don't toe the trinitarian party line.


If you argued your point honestly and with integrity and respect then I doubt very much that you would have any of your posts deleted .

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k2svpete

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I do believe that post is the textbook definition of hypocracy. You dare to suggest that I am not a person with honesty and integrity and that only those who come to a discussion with a non-trinitarian bias also fall into the same category.

I, not you, have received the PMs from moderators, complete with extracts from GT rules about stating a non-trinitarian point of view being unacceptable.

Pull your head in.
 
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That's what the accounts in the Gospels tell us. Jesus was a human after all and the whole gestation, birth, life & death caper is all biological.

So, you don't believe that the God who created the universe with single spoken word and created Adam from dirt and animated him with his own spirit could create animate life in Mary's body apart from biological reproduction? When did God become so limited?
 
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k2svpete

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No, I would not seek to limit God whatsoever but we have the fact that an egg was fertilised in Mary's womb and then the 9 month gestation period followed where Jesus was formed and grew as all babies do.

This follows from what scripture tells us, rather than guessing what may have been.
 
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GraceSeeker

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No, I would not seek to limit God whatsoever but we have the fact that an egg was fertilised in Mary's womb and then the 9 month gestation period followed where Jesus was formed and grew as all babies do.

This follows from what scripture tells us, rather than guessing what may have been.

Actually, to reach the conclusion that an egg was fertilized in Mary's womb is to guess what may have been. Here is the what scripture actually says:

"Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 1:20)

""The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)


As you can see Luke doesn't come close to describing biological reproduction. And the key word on which one might suppose that in Matthew is γεννηθεν. This word is most frequently translated "conceived" or "begotten" in the various English translations. And of course those terms in English and Greek most generally refer to biological reproduction. But, and this is key and why I say that you are guessing, THEY DON'T ALWAYS.

And all one has to do is go to scripture to see this: "Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew?" (Job 38:28)

Today we know that biological conception requires a human sperm and a human egg. And scripture makes it clear that no human sperm was involved. To suggest that God provided a sperm is to also suggest that God created a sperm within Mary's uterus for the conception to take place. But again, scripture does not say this, that is a guess you have made. It is just a plausible that God simply caused an embryo of his own creation to be implanted within the wall of Mary's uterus. And it is just as consistent with the Biblical text as any other guess that one might make.

Further, I want to submit that it is more consistent with the understanding of human reproduction that was held at the time of the writing of the New Testament to understand that the embryo in whole, not just the sperm, came from God. The understanding of the ancients was that the womb of the mother was merely the location of growth for the baby, that life came fully from the father. Thus inherited sin is passed down only from the father and not the mother. Motherhood consists of being an incubator and giving birth. And similarities of the child in looks or disposition to the mother is a result of having been in the womb, not genetics. Just as the same seed might grow differently in different soils. In ancient thought, Mary is the God-bearer, not the egg-provider. Given this, even to say that what was conceived in Mary was from God is to say, in the thinking of the ancients, was fully from God.
 
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k2svpete

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I understand where you're coming from but believe you miss a couple of other clues. Certainly, 'conception' means creation of life.

Further, Mary was referred to as Jesus' mother and I must refute your assertion that any resemlance between a mother and child is purely due to time spent in the womb. That is plain wrong in any medical text you care to examine.

In order for Jesus to fulfill the prophecy he had to be of David's line. Since he cannot be of David's line through God, he was through Mary. If the God placed an embryo in Mary of His own creation, then Mary would not have been his mother but a surrogate and Jesus would not have been of David's line.
 
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music4two

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I understand where you're coming from but believe you miss a couple of other clues. Certainly, 'conception' means creation of life.

Further, Mary was referred to as Jesus' mother and I must refute your assertion that any resemlance between a mother and child is purely due to time spent in the womb. That is plain wrong in any medical text you care to examine.

In order for Jesus to fulfill the prophecy he had to be of David's line. Since he cannot be of David's line through God, he was through Mary. If the God placed an embryo in Mary of His own creation, then Mary would not have been his mother but a surrogate and Jesus would not have been of David's line.

Right again ---
The devil will do anything to make Jesus super spiritual so that men will never believe they can actually be like him. Without Jesus full and complete humanity he can never be our true and honest example.
 
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